Cam options for VH, discuss!

[Mettler]

And all this has to be matched to the intake camshat advance.

If you don't have a VHj on a dynamometer bed, might just be urinating upwind.

Yeah hence my thread about VTC advance value. A race engine builder and a cam specialist both seem to be well interested in the plan and don't think I'm pissing upwind. There's obviously more lift and duration to be had out of the factory valvetrain, as well as more ramp. We're going to figure these values out and roughly figure out the performance gains to be had.

will you be trying to make them suitable for both NA and forced induction or focusing on one for max performance?

They're going to be a suitable drop-in replacement for the factory cams to get the most out of the factory valvetrain. They're probably gonna be neither maximum power for NA or for boost, but a generous upgrade for both.

Remember that to go fully hard core, you need stiffer valvesprings with less coils to avoid coilbind, and then you get into the dangerous area of piston/valve clearance, which would effectively mean rebuilding the engine with some more relieved pistons.

As it stands now, the intention is to have minimal safe piston/valve clearance throughout, maximum safe lift possible, and maximum effective duration (basically, the best you can get out of the standard gear).

I'm probably gonna be trialing these on my own motor first, so I'll be able to advise of results.

[ZedZillaZ32]

As it stands now, the intention is to have minimal safe piston/valve clearance throughout, maximum safe lift possible, and maximum effective duration (basically, the best you can get out of the standard gear)..

Love your work mate, love your work!

[slownslurious]

wow if all the projects on the board come to fruition my VH will be sporting some hotter cams and forged rods/pistons this summer!

[Q45tech]

Isn't the most limiting factor the tuning of the plenum and runner length and diameter?Keeping the intake valve open longer just mislocates the final reflected wave filling.............leading to possible reversion increases?

Exhaust cams alone might yield the best place to design [unless supercharging is the main function]?

Unfortunately we American must deal with low rpm lugging with the AC on creeping up mild hills at 1500 rpms.

[slownslurious]

I am supercharging.

and damn 1500 rpm? downshift!

[Mettler]

Isn't the most limiting factor the tuning of the plenum and runner length and diameter?Keeping the intake valve open longer just mislocates the final reflected wave filling.............leading to possible reversion increases?

Exhaust cams alone might yield the best place to design [unless supercharging is the main function]?

Unfortunately we American must deal with low rpm lugging with the AC on creeping up mild hills at 1500 rpms.

Tech please explain reversion increases, you seem to know more about this stuff than most people I talk to. I don't actually know how that facet of intake systems is calculated, but with a freed up motor like mine with headers & free flowing twin exhausts, wouldn't the intake charge behave differently anyway due to higher vacuum in the combustion chamber at TDC, caused by increased scavenging during the overlap period?

I think you'd see a definite increase, regardless... but for reasons you've stated & more, further increases could be had by a change to the intake system.

[Q45tech]

The word vacuum has no place here as the cylinder at worst still sees a positive pressure from the giant earth supercharger [14.7 psi] less what ever restriction occurs thru the MAF, plenum, runners, valves.

Flow bench use 25" H2O or ~~ 0.9 psi restriction so the minimal WOT intake pressure flow past intake valves is still 13.8 PSI [max lift]..................except when the valves start to close and the restiction increases dramatically.

Engineers always use positive pressure unlike mechanics who use a vacuum gauge and know not what it means........20" HG idle is still 9.8262 psi of plenum pressure.

http://upetd.up.ac.za/thesis/a...n.pdf

The above is a nice work on tuning the runners and plenum.

Unfortunately most of the world has this engine in a 4,000+ pound AT equipt Q45 where less low rpm torque is really a bad idea.

The few US Q with a 4.083 diff gear mod might be able to tolerate a 8% increase in peak torque rpm but 4400 rpm is probably not worth the expense of cam redesign and installation.

I would be interested in any reliable flow bench data vs lift that is around AUS/NZ for 4.5/4.1 stock heads/valves.

[Mettler]

Cams will undeniably shift the torque upwards in the rev range, no one is disputing this as this is typical of a cammed out engine. These cams however, will not be designed with slow slugging around the US in mind, they're to allow the VH to rev its guts out and produce bigger numbers higher in the rev range.

A 4.5L V8 with this bore & stroke ratio shouldn't really be used in an application where a 5.7L Hemi Magnum would be more appropriate anyway, I'm not chasing bottom end torque in a motor that's capable of withstanding really high revs in its factory configuration.

Despite the effect, you'll still have good torque down low, but as soon as you cross that threshold where the profile comes into play, your Q will become an animal! It's just the way it is with cammed out engines. Perfectly understandable if this is not for you.

Fortunately VTC will enable us to set it up so that we can retain a bit of this bottom end torque before switching over to where the cam is most optimal.

I'll see what I can do for you as far as obtaining flowbench information's concerned, I'd be interested in studying it myself.

Cheers for linking that article, I'll have a good read throughout the day. You were on the right track in an earlier posting about working on the exhaust side of things too, here's an article I'm sure you'll find most informative... it goes into some detail in explaining how higher than atmospheric pressures are achieved inside the cylinder before intake valve closure, which I believe is a key point in why cams + a good exhaust will be highly beneficial even in a Q:

[PopPop]

Bump to get this up and going or is this the end of this?

[Mettler]

Things like this take weeks, or even months. Just relax and wait while I carry on with it. I'm prototyping a set for my engine, but that's at least a couple of months away seeing as I don't have much money. I'll keep Nico adequately updated with progress reports.

At this point I'm still modeling the cam blanks in 3d, and haven't spent that much time on it due to other commitments.

[ScottJackson]

I didn't comb through every word of this thread, but I'd like to point out that comparing a cam's .050" duration to its advertised duration doesn't give a good indication of the ramp aggressiveness. This rating at .050" is mostly so people can compare cams from different manufacturers. The advertised duration can be measured at any point. Some manufacturers use .005" and some use .010". The cam with adv. duration measured at .005" will look bigger than the .010" even if it's the exact same cam. With the limited info of duration at .050" and valve lift, you can get some idea of how aggressive the lobe actually is. I didn't realize the stock VH45 cams were so puny. Still, I don't think the price justifies the efforts for many people at all. If you're limited to 4.1 or 4.5L and you are in a competitive racing class, it may well be feasible. Otherwise, it would probably much more cost effective to go with a motor that's supported by the aftermarket, despite the beautiful inherent durability and potential of the VH. Oh yeah, the Dodge 5.7/6.1 hemi isn't just a torque motor. The heads flow VERY well and aftermarket hop up parts are affordable and available. It's too bad the VH was so over built because it seems a waste to not hop it up. I really think the best way to take advantage of the VH attributes without spending stupid $$$ is with forced induction. With that you get to put that stout bottom end to the test, the valvetrain is fine as stock, and you can keep the smooth idle and off idle torque. Just my opinion. As for intake runner length and cross section being matched to the intended rpm operating range, it is best to have it matched and plenum volume should be considered also. However, sticking bigger cams in the motor will increase the HP and torque even with the stock intake and exhaust. It just won't likely be an optimal compromise to match the new cams. Of course, a gross mismatch in parts will hurt performance, but there is some room for growth without reinventing the wheel... er, intake. If someone feels ambitious, they could make a dual runner intake with dual plenums also that will switch from a small, long runner at low rpm to a shorter, larger runner and plenum volume at higher rpm.

[Mettler]

It's all very well for you to rubbish the idea by saying a bigger motor makes more power, but I'd rather a VH over a hemi ANY DAY.

You comment that the best way to take advantage of the VH without spending $$$ is with forced induction. That's a rather ignorant statement to be perfectly honest.

Lets have a rough look at the costs involved:

$1000-2000 per turbo.$500+ for turbo manifolds, if you make them yourself. Then there's the huge amount of time spent mucking around making them.$800-1000 for big enough injectors.$500+ for a decent intercooler.$500+ for oil cooler & lines for one turbo.$500 for bigger radiator, electric fans, and other associated cooling parts.$??? for everything else. Making the setup fit & relocating things, purchasing materials, modifying the intake, etc.

Man, you're looking at over NZ$8000 just to buy the parts to properly twinturbocharge a VH engine properly & reliably without it ****ting itself. That's not including the labour cost for those who won't be welding, fabricating, and installing the whole lot themselves.

Even with a minimal setup as I've listed that doesn't involve opening the motor and decompressing it etc... you'd be looking at a max reliable power level of around 600HP, 700 if pushing it, on a street car.

What I'm proposing is a set of cams to make the most of the stock motor. Sure the intake comes into play, but the biggest effect comes from freeing up the exhaust system.

There's no reason a nicely sorted VH45 with intake and exhaust freed up + a set of reasonably wild cams can't make ~450HP at the flywheel and god knows how much torque. I've done my research on various VH engines at varying levels of tune used in racing and figured it out.

Anything over 400HP is a hell of a lot of power for a street car, and will enable you to deal to 95% of the cars out there at the lights, including these ****house little ricers you see so prominently everywhere. It will also leave you with a big grin on your face as you plant it and the back end steps out... which is all that counts.

It doesn't matter if your engine is producing 423.8HP, or whether you have the intake just perfect to make it produce 428HP... you're not gonna be able to tell the difference and your grin's gonna be just as big. This is the crucial point that actually matters.

Yeah there are additional ways to gain power, the cams are but one mod... and guess what, it's that one mod that I happen to be researching, because the most important thing for an engine to be able to generate power and torque, is its ability to breathe. We've got some damn awesome heads here, it's the cams and valvesprings that let them down. Hopefully I can provide something for people for under a grand that'll let them harness some of that potential power out of their engine. Not once have I said this is the only mod you require, nor am I claiming huge and irrational gains... I'm looking at real world results with these motors, speaking with race engine builders and cam specialists, and finding out what I can about getting more NA power out of the VH engine. At this point, the cams are a major bottleneck with pathetic lift and duration.

If you want to be constructive, provide actual solutions rather than imaginary problems & saying that forced induction is the only good way to do things, because it's not. FI introduces an entire world of new problems, the solving of which requires expensive R&D and experimentation in itself.

Your short runner/long runner idea has been done by Nissan themselves. Read up about the NICS system as used in the R31 generation RB engines.
Modified by Mettler at 4:30 PM 3/21/2007

[ScottJackson]

Whoah! It's just my opinion that it's the most cost effective way to make power with this motor considering the cost of camshafts, intakes, etc. Why put twin turbos on the thing when a single will do a dandy job? Why pay so much for them? Why not a good Holset HX40 or similar sized Garrett (around 60-66mm) for $300 or less? That'll support 500-600hp. The injectors will be required for the N/A setup too once you exceed a certain power level. Those cheapy $250 air/air intercoolers on ebay have been proven to work quite well and are well built for their price. A remote mount turbo would work just fine with the stock exhaust manifolds and piping. Yeah yeah, some people say they don't spool up well and that's true if you use a large turbine. The key to remote mounts is using a bit small turbine and a rather large wastegate. If you build your own water/meth injection setup for under $300, you can omit the intercooler AND the larger fuel injectors up to a point. It also allows much higher boost with stock compression. If you feel so inclined, check out the turbomustangs.com forums. There's guys who've built reliable complete turbo systems for under $1000 and are making over 500rwhp with them on what many import lovers would call archaic crappy stock Ford 302s. There's also the guy on that forum with the 3rd gen Fireturd with bone stock 2 bolt 350 that's making somewhere over 600rwhp, with the stock pathetic smogger heads. Of course how you build power is up to you and I do love a high revving N/A V8 with decent cams, but I could make an $8000 price list in no time for a rather basic N/A VH build also. I'm not saying that the cams shouldn't be done and would be a waste of money. I'm just saying that I don't think it's the most budget conscious way of getting more power from this motor and it's good to keep in mind all the options when costs are being added and being compared to benefits. Just curious, why would you rather have a VH over a hemi any day? You're still talking about the new hemi, right? I know it's not really a hemi (good thing too as it would never pass emissions if it were), but I'm quite impressed with that motor, as I am the Chevy LSx. Supposedly Ford's new V8s will be pushrod again in 2009-2010.

[Mettler]

Whoah! It's just my opinion that it's the most cost effective way to make power with this motor considering the cost of camshafts, intakes, etc.

Opinion != FactA set of camshafts are but four parts that need to be swapped out/in to an engine to radically change its dynamics and power output, and should cost under a grand. It's about the only thing on a NA motor that you can actually do to get this much of an effect. The price will be roughly the same as a very cheap turbo.

Why put twin turbos on the thing when a single will do a dandy job? Why pay so much for them? Why not a good Holset HX40 or similar sized Garrett (around 60-66mm) for $300 or less? That'll support 500-600hp.

Physically huge V8 engine, typically small engine bay + a big single turbo is a nightmare to set up. There's very little clearance around the motor as it is, especially in stock Q45s where they have ABS and AC and all the extras... just about every available gap in the engine bay is separated off by itself with something in the way.

Why pay so much for them ? That's just how much turbos tend to cost if you want to get a decent size & quality one that hasn't been raped... as I say, it doesn't pay to do things halfarsed. If you're buying a second hand turbo, you're not going to know if it needs rebuilding until you get it, which can cost ****loads more. For the price, brand new turbos are worth it.

The injectors will be required for the N/A setup too once you exceed a certain power level.

A good rough way to figure it out is CC per HP. The stock 370cc injectors should be just nearing their limits at over 400HP.

Those cheapy $250 air/air intercoolers on ebay have been proven to work quite well and are well built for their price.

I don't know too much about intercoolers, but US$250 on eBay is almost NZ$500 as I quoted... and if you settle for a cheapy, you can run the risk of getting something sh*t. But fair enough, purchase with some discretion of course! Deals do crop up.

A remote mount turbo would work just fine with the stock exhaust manifolds and piping. Yeah yeah, some people say they don't spool up well and that's true if you use a large turbine. The key to remote mounts is using a bit small turbine and a rather large wastegate.

True but where do you fit a remotely mounted turbo on a Q45? Not saying it can't be done, but again, space is a constraint. This also bumps up the cost of materials as you're going to need more piping to mount a turbo further away. Seems like a lot of hassle.

If you build your own water/meth injection setup for under $300, you can omit the intercooler AND the larger fuel injectors up to a point. It also allows much higher boost with stock compression. If you feel so inclined, check out the turbomustangs.com forums. There's guys who've built reliable complete turbo systems for under $1000 and are making over 500rwhp with them on what many import lovers would call archaic crappy stock Ford 302s. There's also the guy on that forum with the 3rd gen Fireturd with bone stock 2 bolt 350 that's making somewhere over 600rwhp, with the stock pathetic smogger heads.

Those are awesome results on some impressive machines. There are some very clever guys doing very clever things there, and probably quite cheap too. Here's the thing though... what's the reliability like on a mongrel setup like that ? Also, I don't expect that many Q owners to be so familiar with their cars and mechanical stuff that they can just jump in and build setups like that. Things like that take ages to figure out, troubleshoot, and get right. Many people do not want that.

Of course how you build power is up to you and I do love a high revving N/A V8 with decent cams, but I could make an $8000 price list in no time for a rather basic N/A VH build also. I'm not saying that the cams shouldn't be done and would be a waste of money. I'm just saying that I don't think it's the most budget conscious way of getting more power from this motor and it's good to keep in mind all the options when costs are being added and being compared to benefits.

What other mods can easily be done to gain a significant increase in power on an NA engine, apart from the cams? That's the thing... the VH was designed to produce a crapload more power for race use, and was dummied down to make it meet emissions requirements and NVH requirements for the luxury market it fits into. The cams are one of the biggest restricting factors in a VH making power, because there isn't much lift and the profiles are far from optimal. It's the key to these heads.

There are people here in NZ spending up to $60,000 on their VH engine, revving them over 9000rpm, and making over 500HP in NA form with very little head work. I've seen these engines and learnt a lot about their setups, and they're much simpler than you may be willing to believe. It's all in the valvetrain, and making them strong and balanced enough to take the punishment to put these numbers out.

I want it to be that for under a grand you can buy a set of cams that you literally spend only 2-3 hours swapping into your motor, and provided you set them properly, you should be able to turn the key and your car will be a hell of a lot angrier and faster with no hassle! You simply can't get over 400HP any easier than that. Boost requires mounting a turbo or supercharger somewhere, plumbing it all up, using an intercooler or aftercooler, probably an ECU retune, new injectors, etc etc... and it'd be so much hassle to use boost to make under 500HP that it becomes pointless.

Wild cams are the best cheap mod you can do to a VH to get over 400HP without ****ing around, and I'm going to prove it.

Just curious, why would you rather have a VH over a hemi any day? You're still talking about the new hemi, right? I know it's not really a hemi (good thing too as it would never pass emissions if it were), but I'm quite impressed with that motor, as I am the Chevy LSx. Supposedly Ford's new V8s will be pushrod again in 2009-2010.

Because a VH is the strongest factory V8 that I'm aware of by any manufacturer... on stock parts they're 9000rpm capable, 1000HP capable, and I can buy ten of them for the price of one new hemi.

I'm not saying there aren't better ways of making power... but look at what I'm offering. It's not a top shelf 700HP cam kit for your supercar/race car... it's a cheap, easy, bolt in cam upgrade to unlock quite a lot more power from your stock motor, and pretty much any Q owner armed with a FSM and a few tools is going to be able to install the upgrade on a sunny saturday or sunday.

[ScottJackson]

Most of what you said is true. If you're a guy that isn't willing to do all the homework to put together your own turbo setup and don't want to pull the rear muffler to replace it with a turbo and all the associated piping AND you want only 400hp, the cams would be a great option. And the cams would help for a turbo/supercharged engine also. If you can get all 4 cams for under $1000 New Zealand dollars (that hopefully aren't just regrinds), that'd be awesome. I would actually be interested in a set. That's around $600 US, right? I usually think of all the cool auto stuff happening down there in the Australia and New Zealand area, but yeah, there's guys doing some pretty impressive stuff here too. In fact, I've got a 4V quench head 351C and 4R70W trans ready to put in my '95 BMW 540i. We got the Cleveland for 3 1/2 yeras, you guys had it for what, 15 years or more? The guys dropping 60K into the VH, are they using the VH due to cubic inch limits? Are DOHC Ford 4.6L engines also being used in these classes? I know the Teksid blocks and factory forged cranks are supposed to be good to well over 1000hp in the 4.6L and the 3V and 4V heads can flow a lot also. H beam rods, aftermarket pistons, and cams are also readily available for them. I'm not saying they're better than the VH, just that they seem somewhat equivalent and have more aftermarket support.

[Florida240sx]

I'm ready to buy a set of cams. Got 3 cars under going vh swaps. a g35 and 2 240's

[ultrapulse]

Are DOHC Ford 4.6L engines also being used in these classes?

As far as I know no fords over here in NZ came out with that 4.6 quadcam. The only ones that I know of have the 5.4 quadcam, which is in Fords XR8 Falcon. I guess we got the bigger one to compete with Holden's 5.7 Commodore. I have driven the holden and reckon its a bit (bordering on VERY) flat down low, however the xr8 has 90% of its torque from 2,000rpm upwards...and revs. However I havent driven one but have heard great things.

[elwesso]

The way I see it is the cams are a great stepping stone... Its a fairly simple/straight foreward install compared with boost, any way you slice it. You can install cams in an afternoon in your garage with average tools. If you can install a one off custom turbo or supercharger in an afternoon, my hat goes off to you!

IF you're thinking about going with boost, you're setup will make more power on the same boost level with the cams. For some, they may just stop at the cams and have 8000 RPM of fun!

I figure if with my setup (NICO ECU, free flowing exhaust, stock intake/exhaust manifolds) if I can install these cams and get 50 more HP, i'll be a happy guy. But hell, if we're thinking almost a 100HP gain from a stock(ish) setup, itd be hard to beat. I would assume something this mild would have minimal effects on idle and overall driveability/highway fuel economy...

[maxnix]

First thing, there are no current modern day production engines of which I am aware with hemishperical heads.

Cast iron blocks may be great for Bonneville, but bad for handling.

Remote turbos are the very best example of a compressible air column, which means turbo lag. No big deal on the strip, but a real hassle on the street.

If someone develops a boosted setup that can survive daily driving G50 on the street, we'll hear about it. 450ZXTT seems to have come the closest, but in a Z32, not a G50.

Camshafts could be interesting and the best route to power with a reprogrammed ECU. Note that camshaft timings for boosted engines typically do not include as much overlap as those for normally aspirated.

[ScottJackson]

Yeah, the more exhaust pressure in relation to intake pressure means less valve overlap to reduce reversion. As for the air column and lag, the math doesn't really add up. I don't have time right now to dig up the numbers on it, but a 2" pipe from the remote mount turbo to throttle body isn't that much air when you factor in how fast the engine is taking in air at WOT. As an example, guys will go from non intercooled to a very large air/air intercooler and notice no difference in lag, despite having added just as much, if not more, volume to fill in the cold side piping as the 2" or 2.5" remote mount pipe volume before the motor sees boost.

[ultrapulse]

Not taking sides here, but I have read that a turbo's sizing and spec has more to do with lag than almost any other factor.I still think cams are a good idea.

[perana]

just reading this thread and I must say that everyone has a good point.Yes u can cheeply turbo any engine and it may last a long time, but not everyone has the skill to do so.Yes the cams that Mettler wants to produce may be expensive it may not produce as much as a cheepy rear mount but I will support him not because I can afford to but cause he is trying to give us all a good way to make the most of our vh setups.In true HOT ROD fashion,and no Im not a crazy nissan fan I had fords and chevys before.No it was not a 351c that was in production for 15 years it was a south african ford granada perana coupe . The car had a 372 ci winsor paxton blower and 150 hp nitrous.all of which costed me (R15000 ZA) about $1900 US back in 1995. I love the fords but u get sick of buying 8 t5 gearboxes in 1 year. Not taking sides or anything like that ,I have a zx vh45 and a master power turbo and a $400 NZ intercooler.All the parts are going together as soon as I'm done rebuilding my 99 zx nismo R. PS my ford made 680hp. My wifes mecedes clk 200 needs an engine rebuild but that cost over $3000,so when she is not looking I'm gonno sneek my spare vh45 in.... We must all stand together and support each other.

[T45]

Just to add a little perspective here, cams for the VG33E from Nismo or other suppliers will run you $450.00.

For 2 cams.

Therefore I would be more than happy to pay $600 for 4 cams for the VH. It's a great deal once you put it into perspective. Figure nitrous will run you like 600 bucks for the JWT kit for 100HP and it all evens out but with no bottle to fill and no fuel worries.

[ScottJackson]

yeah, $600 for all 4 cams wouldn't be bad. I'd like about 220* @.050" on both intake and exhaust cams and as much lift as possible while keeping the lobes mild enough to keep the springs and followers living a long time.

[Mettler]

Please note I have not yet actually quoted the cams, so before it becomes a common misconception that the price will be $600, it will not unless I quote it as such.

[gs14racer]

Please note I have not yet actually quoted the cams, so before it becomes a common misconception that the price will be $600, it will not unless I quote it as such.

So the price is 600.00???

J/k as long as its 900 or less, id be down for a set assuming of course were talking at least a 40-50 whp gain.

[Mettler]

Yo, just a quick update guys, to show that this is going places.

I've been quite busy lately, obviously with my own rebuild and other things... but I'm going to be spending more time on this over the next couple of months as I prototype my own cams first, and get dyno comparisons between standard, and my cams.

Also, I won't be supplying cams by themselves anymore I've decided, unless specifically requested. I'm going to look into supplying them with springs (seeing as you can't use custom cams with bigger lift without going to a better valvespring in the first place.) We'll get more into detail regarding this as I near completion.

Here's a pic of one of the shaft blanks I've drawn up at this stage.

[SaintlyCharBoy]

Mettler, do you plan to have a blank cast and then machined, or are you pricing a solid billet piece?

if cast, you should think about making the core of the shaft hollow, retaining most of the strength of a solid piece, but greatly reducing the rotating mass - not sure about nissans, but many toyotas run hollow cams with very good luck.

also, casting should allow you to make one casting for both intake and exhaust and simply "pop out" as many as needed.

another topic entirely, what are you thinking for springs / retainers, i for one would like to see titanium retainers, not sure if your guys are willing to go thru that trouble.

keep the momentum going, all this has got me excited!

[elwesso]

sweet... Nice "inventor" skills... Probably didnt take a whole lot of time (at least as far as CAD work is concerned), just some basic measurements (which are in the FSM)

Cheers, they look awesome!

[Mettler]

I don't use inventor as it's a horrible piece of crap, I prefer Solidworks for its intuitive modeling and drawing construction tools. Drawing a camshaft in 3d is nothing... you should see my boxer 8 engine design

I measured up the camshaft by hand, and then used the FSM to confirm specific dimensions.

I haven't yet investigated the cost of casting, presently I've been looking at buying billets and turning them down on our CNC, and drilling the 6mm through hole for the oil gallery through the middle of the shaft. I shall investigate the cost of casting them though, it would be worth looking into.