Butthurt? Ego bruised? Throw acid.

[s0m3th1ngAZ]

You can't rely on statistics such as those when so many crimes go unreported in the third world countries. In the U.S. and other ultra-connected countries, you look at somebody wrong and it's on the first age the next day.
It's even worse because culturally, Muslim women are kept on a leash at all times and NOT allowed to make contact with the outside world without their husband's say so.
Not to turn this into a religious debate...but you people are f*** crazy.

[szh]

Those statistics reveal the real horror in the situation. There is NO pattern. Horrible crimes are happening regardless of location, gender, race, religion, or consequence.

Indeed, that is the scary part.

But ...

... I don't know if the faster communications are allowing us to gather data where we did not have it before. So that we now have more visibility into general humanity crimes that existed regardless (of course, without including the extreme exception events - like Armenia in the early part of the last century, or Europe in the thirties and forties, or Laos and Cambodia's killing fields in the early/latter part of the last century, or Bosnia in the final decades, etc., etc., etc.).

... I don't know if the statistics are the same from when our population was half or a third its present size. I.e., I don't know if the per capita rates are the same, so that the absolute numbers are what is scaring me/us here. Have we reached a degree of numbness where nothing seems too extreme? Everything seems to point to that ... look at the extreme violence in movies today for example. Are these causing our next generation of kids->adults to be numb and "empathy-blind"? I have not agreed with Tipper Gore in this regard in the past, but I don't know anymore ...

... I don't know if mankind in general seems to have become more apathetic recently to such crimes, unable to be shocked, with masses of people simply doing whatever they want, regardless of who they hurt, without. Given the extremes we do hear about, it seems too easy to generalize and assume that everybody has gone off their collective rocker, but that has to be incorrect. Or, I certainly hope, anyway!

Regardless of all that, the absolute numbers are simply too high. And, far more importantly, I have absolutely no clue as to what to do about it and I am afraid that others don't either. Short of ultra-harsh deterrents and lobotomizing the minute fraction of human who engage in such inhumane activities - which is in itself a harshness (who judges the judges?), I just don't see what can effect a fix here. I am not despairing, mind you, but truly at a loss for what it will take for mankind to get a grip.

Z

[Dattebayo]

I think prisons should be solid concrete and steel, including a slab of concrete for the bed. The prisoners should have no liberties and no privileges. It should be punishment, not free room and board.

Well that's the description every jail I've ever been to. Sure, you might get a big pillow for a mattress, but the only real privileges you get are some ratty old books to read or you get to clean up the building rather than stay in your cell 18 hours a day... Exactly where do they have these plush detention buildings you speak of?

[szh]

You can't rely on statistics such as those when so many crimes go unreported in the third world countries. In the U.S. and other ultra-connected countries, you look at somebody wrong and it's on the first age the next day.

Communication indeed plays a role, but even in many third-world countries, this is changing, albeit not yet at the degree of freedom we have here ...

It's even worse because culturally, Muslim women are kept on a leash at all times and NOT allowed to make contact with the outside world without their husband's say so.
Not to turn this into a religious debate...but you people are f*** crazy.

Whoops, too simple a generalization ... I can easily show you clear examples to the contrary (and I am not talking about Muslim women here in the west). Not surprisingly, reality is different.

Yes, things are not perfect, but the general stereotype that is portrayed is simply incorrect (albeit with some real validity like the status of women in Afghanistan when the Taliban were in control).

Please don't accept the pap that the western media loves to pound (do you believe everything they say about things here?) ... learn first ...

Z

[s0m3th1ngAZ]

Oh? So all those documentaries and Nat-Geo articles were anti-east propaganda?

[Chaotic_Warlord]

It's even worse because culturally, Muslim women are kept on a leash at all times and NOT allowed to make contact with the outside world without their husband's say so.
Not to turn this into a religious debate...but you people are f*** crazy.

No offense but Christians aren't any better, the only reason why women have the rights they do here is because of a) they were needed and showed their worth in WWII and b) the women's rights movement of the 60's and 70's. Many of the women in the rural south are still subservient to the men, especially the older generations. Also keep in mind that there are more than a few women in this country who get beaten and abused and don't report it or see justice thanks to certain scriptures in the "Good Book". Organized religion of almost all denominations have their fair share of wack jobs who misinterpret the words of their religions. Also keep in mind that the U.S. is one of a small handful of nations that don't treat their women like crap, most of the major Asian nations (China, Korea, Japan) treat there women almost as badly as they do in the Middle East and Africa.

[skydragoness]

Has far more to do with the male-dominance in the society there - particular in the illiterate and uneducated populace of those countries.

^This
It's my observation/opinion that any society/country that has laws on the books or a culture that promotes the treatment of women as not human (like livestock/property) is where this stuff is most prevalent. Religion plays a part too, a lot of s*** taken out of context in ancient texts and taken literally. IMO, a society that treats women with respect and equality is a more modern society. I've found out through some of my co-workers how pregnant women get treated by 'the system' we have here and it's not cool.

[nissangirl74]

We can only hope that the fact that these women came forward and allowed themselves to be photographed for the world to see will bring awareness to the problem and a solution.

[Jesda]

There's billboards in Africa that say "RAPE IS BAD DO NOT RAPE"

Liberia:



Documentary on Liberia:
http://www.vbs.tv/watch/the-vice-guide- ... to-liberia

[s0m3th1ngAZ]

No offense but Christians aren't any better.

I was referring to all religions.

[dre1507]

As the dragoness has said, in any society where women are classified as "second-class" citizens or less than human, violence against them will almost never see proper punishment, if any at all. So no deterrence against such violence will ever be present.

[Razi]

Well in the Masai tribe in Africa have women aren't seen as equal as the men but rape is not common there.

In a Masai tribe, a woman and children are seen as a form of wealth, so are cattle.
The men are always older than the wives because men are allowed to marry only when they are "warriors".
The men are married to many women, and women are not allowed to own anything.
The cattle that are "given" to the women when they are married aren't really in their possession, they are only holding it for their sons, only the husband can sell or slaughter them.

Yet rape or beatings are not common there.

So, just because the women are "second-class" doesn't mean people will abuse them and get away without punishment in that type of society.
I think the values that are taught in that society is far more important, they could teach that a woman could be second-class but you should never abuse them.
We see bums as second class, but we don't go throwing acid on them because they hurt our feelings right?

[dre1507]

Well in the Masai tribe in Africa have women aren't seen as equal as the men but rape is not common there.

In a Masai tribe, a woman and children are seen as a form of wealth, so are cattle.
The men are always older than the wives because men are allowed to marry only when they are "warriors".
The men are married to many women, and women are not allowed to own anything.
The cattle that are "given" to the women when they are married aren't really in their possession, they are only holding it for their sons, only the husband can sell or slaughter them.

Yet rape or beatings are not common there.

So, just because the women are "second-class" doesn't mean people will abuse them and get away without punishment in that type of society.
I think the values that are taught in that society is far more important, they could teach that a woman could be second-class but you should never abuse them.
We see bums as second class, but we don't go throwing acid on them because they hurt our feelings right?

Good point. *off to research the punishment for crimes in Masai society*

[Razi]

Fun facts:
They are one of the tribes that do "circumcision" on females.
And also if a female cheats, they are beaten, same thing happens if she avoids her husband.
And also a woman that can't haven children will not be treated well when she dies.

[dre1507]

So what are some of the punishments given if crimes are committed against the "property", be it yours or another person's?

[Razi]

I'm not familiar with the punishments for all crimes, but whenever someone is murdered (woman or man, so they are seen as even in that respect, life is life.), the person found guilty of murder has to give all their cattle away to the family of the deceased.
Then they hold a trial of some kind and a punishment is given, sometimes death.
The Masai are very friendly people though, they keep to themselves and they don't around causing death and havoc.
They also depend heavily on the women to take care of the cattle, things around the house, the children, and putting cow poo on the roofs.
Being able to cover one's roof in pure cow poop, rather than a mix of mud and poop, is a sign of wealth.
Poop helps regulate the heat inside their homes better, cool stuff.

So, anyways, they do have a type of council which they use to sort out punishments for crimes and other disputes and they try to go about it fairly.

[dre1507]

hmm, seems a lot better off than most "modern" societies. Then again, i guess it does come down to the values taught, though i don't agree with some, which is okay, because you won't always agree with everthing others (individuals or groups) do.

[Razi]

Yep, some of the things other cultures do we might not agree with (polygamy, female circumcision, etc...), but it works for them.
Although it may not look it, the women are still valued in their culture because, no vajayjay, no babies, no more new tribe members, and you always want more tribes members, and you also need someone to take care of things in the house while you're off trading.

[Razi]

Yep, some of the things other cultures do we might not agree with (polygamy, female circumcision, etc...), but it works for them.
Although it may not look it, the women are still valued in their culture because, no vajayjay, no babies, no more new tribe members, and you always want more tribes members, and you also need someone to take care of things in the house while you're off trading.

One thing that happens in larger societies, like ours and the middle east were the acid attacks happened, that reliance is gone because there are about an unlimited amount of women out there and losing some won't effect their daily lives as hard.

[dre1507]

mhmm. i found a few articles explaining the importance of women in their tribes, which leads me to believe it is the reason why although they are regarded as property, there is a great amount of respect for them.

[szh]

We can only hope that the fact that these women came forward and allowed themselves to be photographed for the world to see will bring awareness to the problem and a solution.

I certainly want you to be really, really right about this! It needs visibility, and not hiding away.

Apparently, in many such cases, the scarred women are reluctant to come forward (similar to how rape and abuse victims have difficulty telling people), so this is a major step in the right direction.

Z

[szh]

We can only hope that the fact that these women came forward and allowed themselves to be photographed for the world to see will bring awareness to the problem and a solution.

I certainly hope you are really, really right about this.

Like rape victims everywhere, these women have been reluctant to come forward and tell their stories. Now that is changing ... we need for people to face reality and be shocked enough to act.

Z

[dre1507]

Being that they were reluctant to speak up at first, could it have been they were afraid of becoming targets for retaliation for coming forward and telling their stories? Along with them speaking out, i think it would also be wise for those around them giving them support, to also play a protector role. With the telling of their stories, they could start a sort of reform on the way women are viewed in their society, and more than likely there will be people who will not like what they are doing. The ones who have been bold enough to come out, probably wouldn't mind dying for such a noble cause, because that is a risk they have probably contemplated many times before speaking out. However, let's not assume that. So, along with them coming out and letting the truth be known, there has to be a way to facilitate safety for them, which could also encourage more and more women who were victims to such horrendous crimes, and are keeping quiet, to come out and speak.

[szh]

Being that they were reluctant to speak up at first, could it have been they were afraid of becoming targets for retaliation for coming forward and telling their stories?

A darn good question indeed.

Along with them speaking out, i think it would also be wise for those around them giving them support, to also play a protector role. With the telling of their stories, they could start a sort of reform on the way women are viewed in their society, and more than likely there will be people who will not like what they are doing. The ones who have been bold enough to come out, probably wouldn't mind dying for such a noble cause, because that is a risk they have probably contemplated many times before speaking out. However, let's not assume that. So, along with them coming out and letting the truth be known, there has to be a way to facilitate safety for them, which could also encourage more and more women who were victims to such horrendous crimes, and are keeping quiet, to come out and speak.

All excellent points.

I have been doing some reading about this topic, and it looks like organizations and people are trying to be supportive and help. How well they will do, how much funding they have to get there, etc., are open questions still. Particularly if retaliations occur - that could drive people into being quiet again. And that would be wrong.

Z

[Jesda]

The troop surge in Afghanistan has caused some of the Taliban to leave heavily guarded cities and run back to the rural areas. To establish dominance, their first order of business is to shut down schools that were opened to educate girls and young women. At one school, some Taliban guys beat up a nightwatchman and threatened to shoot any girl who showed up for class the following morning. The village sent someone on bicycle 30 miles to contact a militia leader. They killed two of the Taliban and had the rest of the group arrested.

To control a group of people (women), you shut down the schools and keep them illiterate. Then, you beat the s*** out of them and keep them pregnant.

[szh]

That appears to be the unfortunate Modus Operandi ...

Z

[dre1507]

Women in some countries have it so hard.