building a 600+ hp kade

[stuckinwisconsin]

Im a recovering honda addict so please hear me out.

I bought a 92 240 and the engine was in dire need of help...so I pulled it out and ripped it apart. I tossed everything but the block, head, and crank in a box and will be needing all new parts. If this car was a honda It would be built but im having a really hard time finding what im looking for. If anyone can help me find the parts I would be really happy. Im trying to build a motor similar the one that was in my crx in one respect - go like gang busters to its 9500 redline and stay there all day long. This car will never be driven on the street.

I need:

Rods - need to handle up to 1K hp and be LIGHT(I have no intention of hitting 1000hp EVER but would like the parts to be alot stronger than what they need to be...)Pistons - same needs as rodsWrist pins - Ti if possible Valve Train - I need to find parts (or a kit) that will work together at 9500rpm and not introduce the valves to the pistons domes....Cams - Power band from 4000 to 9500. I dont care about idle and sub 4k performanceIntake maifold- Looking for individual TB's like the TODA Sports Injection Kitfor hondas..ill build the pressure box if needed or mabey the whole damn thing.Fly Wheel - Needs to be strong...really frigging strongDownpipe - ...

I have:

Head - Ported...waiting for valve train before anything else is doneBlock - waiting for parts before machine work startsTurbo - GT40R Turbo Manifold - Building this myselfCrank Shaft - Sent it to Lopez Crankshaft for a full treatment (nitrade hardening of the journals, profiling, shot peening, balanced @ 15,000rpm.....)Engine Bolts - ARPECU - MoTEC M4 Water Injection - Aquamist 2sIntercooler - 24.5x12x3 spearcoFuel Injectors - 72lb/hr MSD

When the motor is done and tuned im hoping for 600+ hp - I have read about KA's hovering around 550 at the crank and I know my turbo can support 700+ so mabey just mabey... I have 8000 set aside for the parts listed above that I need and another 3000 for machine work on the head and block - I know getting 600+ out of a KA wont be cheap or easy but its more about the challenge of getting there and the engine being able to hang there until your tank is empty than it is the money.

[klattr1]

9500 rpms, wheew. hmm thats a big jump.you'll need bigger injectors if you plan on hitting more than 550 rwhp or so.turbo sounds good.

welcome to NICO. i see its your 1st post.

[stuckinwisconsin]

damn it your right.... ill need at least 1300cc/min injectors...well I guess those can go back on the honda.. so i guess add injectors to the list

[skatanic28]

i think you are gonna have problems going well over 8k with a 96mm stroke.check out http://ka24de.com/ for some of those parts though.

[00_Altima MD]

that is a really good website for hard to find parts for the ka. you should be able to get your rods and pistons there. Good luck with your 8k rpms out of the ka, i really hope that you can get that done, b/c i would like to do the same. if you are going to balance the engine like you are talking about i think that you can do it you just need to have the right valve train to back it up.

[stuckinwisconsin]

I have seen chevy 350 strokers pull up to 9k (and be happy there) so im not to worried about getting above 8k on a 96mm stroke. I am worried about the valve train though. From past experience the prep work that goes into an engine is the most important thing you can spend money on. I am planning on having everything that moves be balanced to very anal tolerances.

[vvaffle]

Hey everyone, help this guy as much as you can. I really want to see if 9500 rpm is possible on the ka24de. My small, if not very helpfull input will be that I read a piston comparison article for the ka24de and it seems like the wiseco pistons are the lightest out of 4 or 5 different companies. Not sure if they can handle for 1k HP.

[H.D.HUMPERDINK]

It 9.5k is your goal but an sr, rb, or a ca. Reving really high is not really that great, building a motor to get there will kill your low end will cost more money that its worth. But if thats what you really want. I would look into a custom crank to go with the custom cams

[IvanAtSPRacing]

I need:

Rods - need to handle up to 1K hp and be LIGHT

you are correct, they will need to be light. With the long stroke and large rod ratio. Dwell time at TDC and BDC is long and the rods and pistons will be YANKED up and down after that. You will probably have to have Ti ones made. Pauter and Crower rods are rated at 200 HP each but we have pushed them harder then that in the 2JZ. I would probably recomend Oliver or Carillo

(I have no intention of hitting 1000hp EVER but would like the parts to be alot stronger than what they need to be...)

Understandable...

Pistons - same needs as rods

Light weight and strong in a piston is hard to get. We have pushed the Arias pistons to over 300 HP per hole in the 2JZ. Watch ring end gaps to keep the pistons together at high boost....

Wrist pins - Ti if possible

Dont think I have ever heard of Ti wrist pins before. Dont skimp here. Most pistons are only rated based on the wrist pins so upgrade for sure.

Valve Train - I need to find parts (or a kit) that will work together at 9500rpm and not introduce the valves to the pistons domes....Cams - Power band from 4000 to 9500. I dont care about idle and sub 4k performance

Cams and valve train will be tricky. You will most likely need it all to be custom. You cant really fit more then .5mm oversize valves in the head because the valve will end up in the cylinder walls. You said you had your head ported so go have your head flow benched. See at what lift your head stops flowing and have the cams designed around that lift. Watch out tho, the wipe pattern on a high lift cam gets awefully close to the edge of the bucket. You may end up having to go to a smaller base circle. Also, the cam lobes get reall close to the head on high lift cams. You may need to machine the head for clearance. You might find the head flows well even at really high lift which means you may even need to drop the spring pad down even further to avoid coil bind on the valve springs.

Intake maifold- Looking for individual TB's like the TODA Sports Injection Kitfor hondas..ill build the pressure box if needed or mabey the whole damn thing.

You will be on your own here. Honestly, there are really no full race options out there for KA intake manifolds right now that arent one off.

Fly Wheel - Needs to be strong...really frigging strong

Stock flywheel has been proven to over 500 whp. Stock trans is another issue. They seem to constantly break in the 500whp range.

Downpipe - ...

3.5" DP will fit between the steering shaft and the body but a 4" will need to be squeezed down a bit.

I have:

Head - Ported...waiting for valve train before anything else is doneBlock - waiting for parts before machine work starts

Think about upgrading the size of the head studs. Stock are only 10mm

Turbo - GT40R Turbo Manifold - Building this myselfCrank Shaft - Sent it to Lopez Crankshaft for a full treatment (nitrade hardening of the journals, profiling, shot peening, balanced @ 15,000rpm.....)

Some people claim that the crank and or block cant take the rpms. My understanding is they claim a harmonic develops that shakes everything loose. I dont know if these claims are coming from KA haters or if its true. I have personally spun the stock motor to 7500 but its so out of cam at that point it makes no sense to go much more. I am actually thinking about putting a set of NA racing cams and springs in a stock motor and trying to see if the motor will come apart at 10K rpms. The only thing that I could see is the single counterweighted crank MAY flex due to not being fully counterweighted and that MAY cause an issue at high RPMs...

Engine Bolts - ARPECU - MoTEC M4 Water Injection - Aquamist 2sIntercooler - 24.5x12x3 spearcoFuel Injectors - 72lb/hr MSD

72lb injectors wont be enough. You will need 95 lb injectors minimum

I wish you great luck and will be glad to help you in any way I can

[NateDogg]

While RPM stands for "Ruins Peoples' Motors" I would suggest keeping the KA below 7500rpm if you want any sort of reliability. The NASPORT guys who use the SOHC KA rev to about 8500rpm and rebuilt their engines every couple races.

The KA can make 600hp below that rev limit of 7500rpm so why consider rev'ing higher?

I'm also curious what the purpose of this engine will be?

-Nate

[Nismo_Freak]

I have seen chevy 350 strokers pull up to 9k (and be happy there) so im not to worried about getting above 8k on a 96mm stroke. I am worried about the valve train though. From past experience the prep work that goes into an engine is the most important thing you can spend money on. I am planning on having everything that moves be balanced to very anal tolerances.

A Chevy 350 engine typically has a stroke around the 88-89mm mark so it has room to play. The KA has a 96mm stroke to begin with and that is on par with stock ~400cid BBC's have.

These guys taking SBC's with long rod stroked engines up to 9000 are rebuilding them every month or so. Unless you want to do this with the KA engine I don't suggest doing anything above 8000 RPM, the piston speeds are rediculous as it is at 7500!

I hope you get it built and runnin' soon though.

[npaulseth]

I have seen chevy 350 strokers pull up to 9k (and be happy there) so im not to worried about getting above 8k on a 96mm stroke. I am worried about the valve train though. From past experience the prep work that goes into an engine is the most important thing you can spend money on. I am planning on having everything that moves be balanced to very anal tolerances.

You are my new favorite person on this board... (J/K Ivan). I live in Eau Claire and have very similar goals to you. Where are you located?

Thanks

Noah

[AustinSilvia]

okay, no criticism, just trying to understand your motivation here... and also lending my take on the situation...

what exactly is so appealing about making a 600 hp ka? it is not a really impressive engine at all... there are much more capable engines out there, especially in a 6 cylinder configuration.... of course a 4 cylinder is capable of doing such things (look at F1 cars making 1000 hp with a 4 cylinder), but the thing is that those engine ARE impressive, and they are very well engineered... even the renowned sr isn't that well engineered (for 600 hp anyway). sure what you want to do is possible and it would be something to brag about, but hey let's face it, it's not going to last like a 6 cylinder would. an rb would end up costing you less to modify and get to that power. phase 2 motortrend got an sr to 700+ whp, but they did it for one dyno pull and then the engine was dead, and in addition to this it was VERY expensive, and EVERYTHING on the engine was pretty much replaced... it wasn't even an sr anymore when they were done with it. if youre trying to make a car that will survive more than one pull then go with a different engine. for lower end applications (say maybe 400 hp) it may cost about the same to get an rb or some other 6 cylinder and get 400 hp or make the ka make 400hp, but once you get to 500 plus it will end up costing less for the 6 cylinder versus the 4 cylinder, and of course last longer... the 6 cylinder just won't have to work as hard for those numbers...

but please tell me if there is some special motivation for you wanting to do this, because i'm not turned off by the idea of 600hp

[IvanAtSPRacing]

AustinSilvia,

PLEASE put down the crack pipe.

What is NOT appealing about a 600HP KA?

What is NOT impressive about the KA?

You claim that you werent impressed with an SR that made 700whp because it wasnt an SR anymore. What about a 240sx with a motor swap. That isnt a 240sx anymore by your reasoning.

The KA is showing itself to be a great motor to turbo charge. In bone stock form, I put down 404 whp. Absolutly stock and never opened up in 14 years or 115,000 miles. With forged pistons, upgraded rod bolts in the factory rods, cometic HG, ARP studs, and EVERYTHING else bone stock I have put 502 whp down. I was limited by the factory ignition and a slipping clutch. Once the ignition and the clutch are upgraded, I am going to find out how much power the stock cams, intake, TB, etc can actually make with lots of boost pushed thur it. Then I have cams and the racing intake manifold to test out.

Please dont discourage people from exploring the potential of the KA. Dont be a hater. Yes the RB motor is awesome but why talk him out of something he is interested in doing.

[TheOne]

then why not a kade makin 600hp?you will need some better pistons, connecting rods and cryotreath(sp?) everything to make it stand more, it'll be expensive but if $$ isn't the limit.....sure why not.

[240sxOwner]

I say go for it....You will definately need to upgrade the valvetrain....once all the valvetrain is done (titanium maybe?) make sure everything is balanced to the T, and knifedge the crank too. I still wouldn't feel comfortable over 8K.

I don't know what the car will be used for, but i would suggest a different rear end gear. I know Nismo made a 3.73 or 3.78 gear for us 240's, that way you will have a higher top speed, and more time in each gear to get down the track w/o shifting.

Good Luck

[Warped]

then why not a kade makin 600hp?you will need some better pistons, connecting rods and cryotreath(sp?) everything to make it stand more, it'll be expensive but if $$ isn't the limit.....sure why not.

you need to read a bit more with what ivan has done this guy most likely wont need to get Better rods or cryo treat ****, if its all going to be balanced the way he says and he gets 1 badass clutch and a nice rearend and and if hes going to cryo treat anything i would cryo the transmission internals or just make some custom transmission mount and throw a better transmission in there. the 600hp goal is very possible with what he is willing to spend i mean common 11k should be able to do it

DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT

[vvaffle]

(look at F1 cars making 1000 hp with a 4 cylinder)

hrm... F1 cars are V10s. just thought you might wana know. back on topic, most of us know that a ka24de's could make 600hp. its the 9500 rpm that are gona be hard. and to those who dont like high RPM's, yeah it's great to have an engine full of torque with no need to go to high RPM's but most true racecars will rev high. to go back to the example of F1 cars, they rev at 16000+ RPM. i still wish him the best of luck, and would help any way i could, though i doubt i can.

[skatanic28]

hrm... F1 cars are V10s. just thought you might wana know. back on topic, most of us know that a ka24de's could make 600hp. its the 9500 rpm that are gona be hard. and to those who dont like high RPM's, yeah it's great to have an engine full of torque with no need to go to high RPM's but most true racecars will rev high. to go back to the example of F1 cars, they rev at 16000+ RPM. i still wish him the best of luck, and would help any way i could, though i doubt i can.

what is the bore/stroke of the average f1 motor though? im curious to see the power curve on one as well. i guess i dont see the point in transforming the ka into a honda motor.....they dont need to spin to 8k+ to make power.

also....isnt the ka valvetrain supposed to be very secure even at high rpm? i would think with stiffer springs and stonger valves you would be set. but i dont know too much about this....anyone care to get into it?

[keepingthe240]

f1 used to use a turbod straight 4. It ran on methonal and i'm thinking boost was upward of 30psi. Indy cars also used turbos in the '80's There used to be a ka24 on this board a few years ago that made 700hp. It was a drag car though. He was selling the chasis for $20k+ A search would tell you who the guy was. I would compare the ka to a harley motor. Long stroke/ shorter bore.

[WDRacing]

okay, no criticism, just trying to understand your motivation here... and also lending my take on the situation...

what exactly is so appealing about making a 600 hp ka? it is not a really impressive engine at all... there are much more capable engines out there, especially in a 6 cylinder configuration.... of course a 4 cylinder is capable of doing such things (look at F1 cars making 1000 hp with a 4 cylinder), but the thing is that those engine ARE impressive, and they are very well engineered... even the renowned sr isn't that well engineered (for 600 hp anyway). sure what you want to do is possible and it would be something to brag about, but hey let's face it, it's not going to last like a 6 cylinder would. an rb would end up costing you less to modify and get to that power. phase 2 motortrend got an sr to 700+ whp, but they did it for one dyno pull and then the engine was dead, and in addition to this it was VERY expensive, and EVERYTHING on the engine was pretty much replaced... it wasn't even an sr anymore when they were done with it. if youre trying to make a car that will survive more than one pull then go with a different engine. for lower end applications (say maybe 400 hp) it may cost about the same to get an rb or some other 6 cylinder and get 400 hp or make the ka make 400hp, but once you get to 500 plus it will end up costing less for the 6 cylinder versus the 4 cylinder, and of course last longer... the 6 cylinder just won't have to work as hard for those numbers...

but please tell me if there is some special motivation for you wanting to do this, because i'm not turned off by the idea of 600hp

I see that Ivan already schooled you about the KA, so I'm just going to add my .02 cause your post was ignorant and pissed me off. In case you didn't notice, this is the KADET forum, we like boosted KA's here. If we wanted to boost up a 2JZ or RB26, then we'd be in another forum.

This guy has just crossed over from the torqueless wonder world of Honda's. The least we can do is support his idea's.

SIW, I totally feel your love for high revving motors. My daily driver is a Celica GTS, bone stock, but still fun with a 8300rpm rev limit. So my goals as well as some of Ivans are very similer. Although Ivan works for a damn speedshop and will pretty much beat me to the punch at every HP level, I still love to see the KA24 get the much deserved love it finally is.

http://www.ka24de.com/ Has everything you'll need to build up the internals as well as the valvetrain. Although depending on the budget, you may consider going with titanium rods. This will lighten up the rotating assembly quite a bit and allow for an easier job of extending the RPM's. If not then I'm sure a very good balance will be sufficient.

Remember to treat your oil system to an increase in pressure as well as having all the bearings redone, by redone I mean having the oil galley regrooved to circumference the bearings. I'm lost for the actual terminology at the moment.

Anywho, best of luck, keep us updated with pics and news.

WD

[AustinSilvia]

put down the crack pipe?

what is so impressive about this engine versus other nissan engines like the rb or sr or toyota engines or honda engines or whatever else.... of course any engine can make power with the right coaxing.... but you are misreading what i am saying....

i am simply suggesting that this may not be the most efficient way to spend money on a 600hp engine because it will not be as reliable as an engine with more cylinders because of the work required to accomplish said goal is much more for a 4 cylinder versus 6 or 8 or higher. i am using work with a double meaning here. more work put in to the engine and more work for the engine to produce said power.

also i was not saying i wasn't impressed by 700 hp sr.... who cares if it's not the same engine, i was just throwing that in there... i was saying it made 700 hp for one dyno pull and then it was DEAD. i was only illustrating what i just said in the last paragraph.

ummm and so i am a hater now... okay buddy.

i am not trying to "talk him out of it" i am trying to lend advice because that's why people post things up on here... to ask questions and get feedback.

i'm also not here to argue with people about opinion... i wasn't trying to start a war about anything, i was asking this guy what his motivation was.

to me it makes sense that supercars have 12 cylinders not because they couldn't make the same power out of a 4 cylinder, but because it is easier and more reliable to use a 12 cylinder.

by the way, to whoever said something about f1 cars.... not all f1 cars have v10's... there are, as it is said above, turboed inline 4 cylinders. i'm not arbitrarily making stuff up so i can sound like i know what i'm talking about. i am basing what i am saying on experience and what i know. if i didn't have something that i thought was valuable to say then i wouldn't say anything...

and if you read my last post i think i distinctly said"but please tell me if there is some special motivation for you wanting to do this, because i'm not turned off by the idea of 600hp "

i was under the impression that that statement would tell everyone i was not hating on his project or anything of the sort.

umm if i didn't like the ka24de then i wouldn't have a s13 kat... i love 240's... they are very well balanced cars. i have 2 because i like them.

one more thing if you got on here and you were going to do something cool and spend money on it and all but there might be a better way to do it or more efficient or whatever, wouldn't you want people to tell you about it? you know NOT EVERYONE knows about the easy of swapping the engine with an rb or whatever else...

ok well the hater is signing off.

no hard feelings, but i don't post here for internet argument. i respect the opinions of people on this forum and i greatly appreciate the feedback i receive from people. i hope they appreciate it when i have something useful to say also.

[AustinSilvia]

by the way good luck with your project. hope things go the way you plan.

[Red-KAT]

I think the TI Rods were $1500 each from ka24de.com

I would also like a KA to rev past 8k.. So go for it... Hell the less you have to shift the better.

[IvanAtSPRacing]

ummm and so i am a hater now... okay buddy.

From your profile

"User Biography 1993 silvia also 1995 ka krapper"

I think this says a lot.

[skylndrftr]

f1 used to use a turbod straight 4. It ran on methonal and i'm thinking boost was upward of 30psi.

yup i-4's but it wasn't methanol those are indy engiens it was more like jetfuel only more powerful i'd just call it rocket fuel. in qualifying trim, the bmw engine supposedly made 2000whp from 1.5L at around 56-60 psi of boost.

turbos had variable vanes on the turbin and compressor wheels as well as variable turbine nozzles

current f1 engines run to approx 19k rpm

[AustinSilvia]

this is my brothers profile... lol i didn't know it said that... this little v8's crappy signature at the bottom is pretty stupid too.

the profile hasn't been updated for like 2 years... in addition to this the "95 ka crapper" deal was no joke. that car was run into the ground and it was a piece of crap... my younger brother sold it for like $1500 and now has another 95 that he's currently swapping his s14 sr into.

sorry for the confusion. honestly i wouldn't be posting on the KAT forum if i didn't have one... i'd have to be a hell of a tool to just come here and start arguments for no reason.
Modified by AustinSilvia at 6:45 AM 1/31/2005

[vuse1]

^just dont come into the KA-T forum trying to talk ppl out of what they want, this guy had a legit question and was looking for answers that didnt start with the letters SR, RB, VG ect..

[Projex240]

f1 cars use more like 60 psi i think.I have heard of them using twin turbo motor with VERY short stroke and revving to like 11k or higher with 60 psi of boost. Very impressive motors, and yeah--they get torn down and rebuilt after every race pretty much.

-Josh

[supra brit]

I wish you tons of luck! Getting the KA to rev that high will be a task for sure...once again though, remember this isn't a Honda motor and doesn't need to rev to 8k to make power...but it's a great goal, and keep us posted on your process...I would looove to make 600hp out of my KA!