Budgeting A Build, A Few Q's

[shiboboo]

Some quick background first. I've been lurking, reading, and researching on and off for a few years now regarding building a motor for a Datsun 510. Things have finally lined up, or at least come as close to aligning as I could reasonably hope for. In the first phase of this I will be building the motor. Once built, I will buy the 510, that way I don't have a car just sitting around. During this time, I will have access to shop equipment, so I can do most machining myself (boring, honing, etc). My goal is to end around 300hp, reliably. Reliability is the most important aspect of the build. With that out of the way, here's what I have in mind.

CP or Wiseco Forged Pistons (Has Wiseco figured out the oil squirter issue? Does Wiseco use the softer alloy like CP does, or the more brittle one like Supertech?): CP - 650; Wiseco - 475
Shot Peened Stock Rods - TBD
XS Power Top Mount Manifold - 129
Garrett 57 Trim T3 .63 AR - 720
DSM Blue Tops 450cc - 100
ARP Head Studs - 103
ARP Mains - 120
ARP Rod Bolts - 60
Z32 Maf - 200 (used with new connector, could buy cheaper all used/private second hand)
Tial 38mm Wastegate - 245
Cometic Top/Bottom End Gasket Kits - 200
New 200sx Water Pump - 22
OEM Oil Pump - 115
Nistune Board - 440 (AUS)
Walbro 255
FPR - ?
Bosch Bypass Valve - 35
ACL Race Rod and Main Bearings - 123

I'll still need a BOV and HG. Without sacrificing too much, is there anything which I could lessen to make the build cheaper? I could try to source a used turbo obviously. Anyway, it's 1:30 am, so that's it for now. Any thoughts or input?

Edit: Added in rod and main bearings, Walbro pump and FPR. What fpr do most of you use to handle the higher fuel pressure from the Walbro over the stock unit?

Also, important to my build , where/who is a reliable person to buy a motor from? Last post in the "where to buy" topic on here is from 2007.

[ska69]

just my 2 cents:

1. water pump - 22 USD @ http://www.carpartsdiscount.com/auto/pa ... 3593=66725

2. oil pump oem - 115 USD @ ebay (check yourself)

3. gaskets - 1. Cometic Street Pro Gasket Bottom End Kit CA18DET CA18
2. Cometic PRO Rebuild Gasket Set Nissan CA18DET CA18 S13
200 USD  is for the Top end kit, and the Bottom end kit. together. @ ericsperformanceparts @ ebay (contact buy e-mail, prices would be lower)
4.injectors - used DSM 450cc @ ebay around 100 USD

5. BOV - I'd go with a bosch bypass - great thing. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... 0535634586 make sure you get the 110 or 114 or at least 108 p/n item (earlier ones are bad)

[pogstar]

http://www.nissanparts.cc/catalog/?section=1193

$105 for an OEM oil pump! best price I've found so far

[tommey]

ARP bolts for the stock rods is a good idea, but for the head and bottom end? save the money and use it on a better turbo.

[shiboboo]

Due to creating the thread at 1:30 am, I have edited in a few things I forgot.

Thanks for the input thus far.

Tommey: The arp bolts are a strength and reliability upgrade. While I'll concede that a t3 jb turbo isn't the newest tech, it's not a real weak link of the build. Yes it won't flow as well, spool as quickly as bb like the gt series turbos, but for my needs and priorities, it will get the job done reliably and cheaper (than gt bb series). This comparison is new product. If I can find a used bb turbo that fits in my price range along with my goals, then perhaps I'll jump on it, but for the purpose of budgeting a build it is safer to compare new/items from a retailer, as the price is more constant.

[bersh240]

id skip the bov...
sard fpr.

[sjbsuperman1425]

Since I am also aiming for 300, heres my 3 cents..

ARP rod bolts
ARP head studs
Felpro head gasket, exhaust gaskets
Nismo FPR
NIStune
Wideband (your choice) and other necessary gauges
Z32 MAF
S15 T28 or one step above that
Extrude honed stock exhaust manifold
Your choice of bypass/blow off valve
Tomei Poncams

From what I've researched, this is a decent and easy way to get 300whp reliably and its basically just bolt ons, except for the ARP bolts/studs. The only way I would think of changing the pistons and rods for aftermarket is if the engine is in really bad shape, otherwise, i'd leave them alone.

[shiboboo]

The t28's are internally wastegated are they not? I'll have to think about it; perhaps I'll do the motor in two phases. Start out with the t28 when I first build it and swap it in, go forged and t3 later.

[sjbsuperman1425]

yea they are internal, but that shouldn't matter. There are plenty of people that make good power on them. I looked into a T3 turbo setup, and may still if I get bored or want more power, but for 300whp, T28 was the easiest route to go for me and you can find them for under $500.

[shiboboo]

I wasn't degrading them for being internally wastegated, just confirming that they are.

Are there any decent top mount t28 manifolds? So far what I've seen are all bottom mount.

[sjbsuperman1425]

if you use the T28, and for the best results, get the stock manifold extrude honed and cermaic coated. May I ask why are you set on the top mount setup?

[shiboboo]

It's what fits most easily in the 510 bay.

[sjbsuperman1425]

my apologies.. i totally forgot this was a Datsun lol If a T3 top mount is what you need, then by all means go for it. Try the CXRacing top mount turbo manifold though. I had great luck with my bottom mount manifold from them as well as my exhaust and radiator.

[pogstar]

S15 T28 or one step above that
.

what would you say the next step would be? working on my own plan here..

[sjbsuperman1425]

im no turbo expert, but i think the GT2871R with a .64 A/R housing would be the next step up from an S15 T28.

[D_Stirls]

T28 (GT2560R)
GT2860RS (Disco potato)
GT2871R
GT3071R

in that order

[dash]

those thin wall big tube manifolds are not the best for response fyi..... even with a t28

Nothing better than a T3 platform to build on imo
a used T3 60 trim with 0.48 back housing will get you response and close to 300
common on 2.3 ford sohc t-birds, mustang, merkurs

if/when you're ready to 'step it up'.....
easily upgradeable to t3/t4 spec, as the turboford and 1st gen 300zx z31 owners have done for ages. They retain the same housings... either clip the standard turbine wheel or machine for bigger wheel. Machine compressor housing for a T4 wheel. Even retain their integral wastegate.
Taken heavy street 3000+ pound cars, with old 2 valve motors deep into the 11s

Best performing street 1.8L I can recall was a miata with a t3/t04e 50-trim. No gt28xx or gt30xx could match its response OR power output. T3/t4s are proven first rate performers. Screw hype
Works great on ca18s also, but.... don't take my word for it, search the ca18 testimonials on nico who run them

[sjbsuperman1425]

dash..even though i agree with you on your stand on t3/t4's being really good turbo's, its rather annoying seing you post the same example in every thread on the subject and straight up knocking GT_ _ turbo's.

[s13drifter88]

i seldom find Dash's input relevant or useable and Im honestly not tryna be a douche. Hes asking for a budget build, not OMGWTFBBQ status power. He said he was shooting for 300, not 500. What people do with their ford's and dsm's is of little concern to the majority of us. Screw hype? I think waaaaaayyy to many GT28xx's sell to just be hype. and dont tell me they cost more either. the turbo does yes (speaking in terms of new 2860 or 2871) but to move to t3 no. whats a good mani cost, $500ish? turbo, $700? wastegate, $250ish? throw away your perfectly good 3" O2 housing and downpipe? unless your going for 400hp or more it honestly sounds stupid to me to do such.

For 300 do this. s15 t28, 550cc injectors, z32tt maf and a JWT or Enthalpy rom tune.
Turbo used in great shape = $500ish
Injectors - Deatschwerks or RC 550's = $350
Maf - Z32 = $150
Rom tune - JWT or Enthalpy = $4-500
Dont touch your internals outside of the ARP rod bolts unless your shooting for over 400hp. I honestly wouldnt be to worried about those unless you plan to do a lot of sustained high revving where theyre most prominent to stretch. A basic CXRacing intercooler kit for s14 sr will suffice just fine for that power and a plain old basic ebay 3" dump/downpipe/catback will be about all you need to complete this adventure. Youll get awesome smiles per gallon.

[sjbsuperman1425]

If you could "like" someone's post on NICO, i would definitely like yours s13drifter88!

[shiboboo]

I'll actually be building this motor for a class. Because of this, I will have to completely disassemble the motor. Since I have everything apart, it makes sense to rebuild it, even if I just use oem replacement parts. Due to this, this build is different to how I would be doing it if I wasn't forced to take the entire motor apart.

Again, are there any top mount t28 manifolds? If not, I could get one made obviously, but perhaps I'm just overlooking ones already out there?

[s13drifter88]

thanks bro lol. im not trying to put anyone down, im just trying to be a realist. To build a 300hp CA you dont have to reinvent the wheel. Its a small turbo upgrade away with maf/fuel/tune = done.

[shiboboo]

Ya, I know, I'm just trying to put the information out there as to some of the reasons for why I'm going about it the way I am. If it wasn't for the class, I would most likely not go to the extent of rebuilding it as I am. If it wasn't for the fact it was going into a 510 at the end I wouldn't be so stuck on top mount. Etc.

Regardless, this thread has already been of help, so thanks to everybody so far.

[s13drifter88]

whats the prob with a bottom mount in a 510 exactly? theres a n/a ka powered 510 on youtube that a guy had to use a t2 turbo mani and make a custom downpipe but that tells me that it should fit. if its due to clearance near the firewall you could always knock it in a little like people do for starter clearance on rb swaps

[shiboboo]

I can't say exactly because there's so much custom work in all the swaps the people do, not only in the motor swap, but in the suspension and steering modifications done. However, most of turbo swaps I've seen documented are top mount. In general, top mount makes the clearances easier. I'm sure I could make a bottom mount work, but given the option, top mount should make the swap easier.

[s13drifter88]

i see top mount as a pain. staying bottom mount makes everything direct bolt on. many may disagree with me but it all a matter of opinion in the end. if/when you start the swap check and see how much clearance you have with the stock turbo and outlet. see if all that is really necessary

[dash]

oh boy....
1. shiboboo HAS a T3 flanged top mount manifold already
2. shiboboo is askin about a bolt-on budget turbo

Several folks on sxoc have dared to travel off the beaten path of the mindless sheep.... imagine that! They have posted their various T3 results with dynos and feedback, and direct back to back comparisons to various t28, s15, gtir, potatoes.... and guess what they preferred ? Surprise! the used T3, with its integral wastegate (adapted to oem manifold)
PLUS.....
if the horsepower bug ever bit (it usually does), and he wanted to pursue 350>400>450hp... he can bolt on the very same turbo, with wheel upgrades. What is more flexible AND "budget" oriented than that ??

of course, dash doesn't expect you two idiot fanboys (s13drifter88 & sjbsuperman1425) to have done your research OR acknowledge the voice of reasoning

anyhow shiboboo ......just another option you may wanna consider

[sjbsuperman1425]

If you would have read my post, I said I agree that t3 turbos are very good and easily produce that power, but why go through all that trouble if ts not needed. I've done my research so don't knock me like that, it's very ignorant of you.

As for the OP, if you are rebuilding for a class, you mind as well go all out with it. If you would've provided hat I'm sure we could've given you a good answer from the get-go

[s13drifter88]

ok... Dash... I remember an older post from that i totally flamed, bashed and smashed you in one of your gt28xx sucks rants and everything needs a giant t3/t4. granted they perform but there are other turbos that just as well suffices the power goals and response desired from the owner. Ive also prob done as much if not more "turbo homework" than you. I remember in one of your previous posts in the thread that I typed a novel shooting you down that you said you stay away from compressor map, that you stick to hard facts. well i dont kno what hard facts you stick to and neither do I care but saying such pretty much tells me that you kno little of the subject and crawl other build threads and forums to see what other ppl are doing but have little or no hands on experience. If I could count how many of these engines Ive built, set up, helped friends and other ppl size their turbo, comparing the maps/trims/aspect ratios of a turbo to generalize its characteristics of how it will perform and act id prob have 500 fingers and toes to count them on. But you kno what they say, If you cant be right about it fight about it. You always talk about sxoc, so much. Why the hell are you on here??

[s13drifter88]

wait h/o. 1, where did he say he had a top mount mani? 2, how is going top mount budget friendly and 3, whats wrong with following an old path. Didnt you say you like facts and proven results. FACT: S15 t28 is bolt on/budget friendly goodness. FACT: S15 t28 is 300hp capable. I dont see the need to go thru all that just in case the hp bug ever bites. I like dogs, but Im not going to buy dog food just in case I get a dog.