bolt on turbo kits suck balls

[aleph1]

Well, I personally dont know if someone has done it, but what Im saying is if they claimed they did and had a list of what was done to the car and had the stuff I mentioned, I would believe him.

Its like totally modding the engine to make NA power (except Hi comp pistons) and then slapping a turbo on it, the engine is very efficient at that point, enough to make the turbo more effective. Look at this Turbo GSR dyno:http://www.importreview.com/dy...i.jpg

NOTE: IB is Import Builders, they use a T3/T4 turbo.

Stock GSRs make more hp than a stock KA, therefore, if you were to place a turbo on each, the GSR would naturally make more HP, hence if the KA were modded with NA mods (ones that dont hamper the future turbo upgrade, such as hi comp), it would naturally make more than just a KA with a turbo kit and 10psi.

[:: orion ::]

[Note: We're talking peak power here, which is a useless stat IMO...unless you own a dyno queen]

But the difference there is RPM - A GSR can breathe 'til 9000rmp or something silly like that - The KA will stop making power at 6500 in most cases. Notice the peak power in the dyno you posted is at 7500rpm...

The formula for HP is: (Torque*RPM)/5252

The higher the RPM, the higher the output - Hence the bad-A$$ #s put out by the S2000 - 240hp form a 2.0...but at 9000rpm.

So again, talking about a KA24DE in a 240SX - 300rwhp at 10psi would be possible with only very good tuning and a large turbo. IMO it would require standalone, and we talking about a JWT setup in his post...

Later - Brian

[Projex240]

ok im back.....sorry i havent been able to post...i had better things to do than try to bull**** with everyone about what thier opinions are. So far, there are only 2 or 3 posts on here that gave good feedback to what i was saying. If nobody caught it in the end, i wanted feedback, not a bunch of flaming. As far as someone talking about a kit for 3600 bucks...thats exactly what i mean. 3600 is alot of dough for "almost a turn key turbo kit". What does everyone plan to do witht hat kit and no way to manage it? wd- i wont try to argue with you, you know what you are talking about....about the boost level. all i mean was that boost is not DIRECTLY related to detonation, bad tuning is. what i meant about the referance to 20 pounds is that i understand that tuning is a key factor to the life and performance of the motor, and that i totally agree 20 pounds is still a little high without a built motor. but im not sure if i would consider your kits a "bolt on". dont they requiore some kind o ffab'ing to fit a 5th injector on there? standalone...i read with some interest on one of your posts a while back, and i cant remember all of it. But i think that i got the most of it. ( i think). And to the punks who love to find ways of expressing their sarcasm in front of a moniter, because they probably wouldnt to someones face.......no i could give a rats *** if anyone on a forum 'looks up to me" ill save that for my kids. second, i wouldnt go into bussiness because id have to deal with people like all of you who have too much to say and not really any reason to say it. Scotty 2 forty- i really like your car--its sweet, but like i said screw the hashing- i made a post to get conversation, maybe so veiw points but all of this sarcastic bull**** is tired and boring. ace-in-hole, about the stage 2 nsport kits---umm how much are they....way too much. and still no "good" way to manage it. If it aint jim wolf , or standalone...its not worth it in my OPINION9i threw that in there to appease the whiners.c kwik- i didnt say say that te jgs manifolds were the best.. i said they were great...especially for the price--250.00...really good deal if you ask me.about the f-max manifold...i priced tham without a kit---600 bucks.and finally....did anyone acutally read anything i said about the what the turbo kits consist of...Everyone seemed to miss it...what these kits consist of isnt worth the money. manifolds that crack, turbos that dont have a very good efficiency island. Ht ekits only come with enough oomph to get *around* 240 to the wheels..any more costs more. even for 3400 bucks...I could do much more with my own setup alot cheaper. (what kind of crap was that about put up or shut up? screw you, I aint got **** to prove, especially about making money of an idea... this from the guy with the frontier who wants so much more. ) im sure i missed alot of crap but this is old...i can fell it about to get hot inhere...let the flaming come-but if anyone can spare themselves for some good infoor conversation, bring it...i love 240's and would talk about em all day long...but not to smug know it all punkasses who love to do nothing more than shoot other people down.

waht i would like to say is that the only person i have respect for on this forum is wdracing...simply because he gets a point across wthout being a smartass. you guys should give it a shot somtime.

[Projex240]

man..sorry to everyone else on the second page..i didnt see any of those posts...thaatnks all of you guys who gave good feedback.

[Projex240]

about the 300 to the wheels...what i meant by pushing is like 275-285-290 to the wheels..that pushing it. what really helps the 300 hp GET to the whells is if youve got a very efficiaent setup-lightweight fly's and driveshafts are very helpful in reaching 300 to the wheels... i knw they dont make hp, but they help it get to the ground alot easier.

[Projex240]

damn..i really cant spell good tonight.

[scotty-2-forty]

Quote »Ever notice that he starts the thread but never gets involved in the hashing? Second post I know of. As for the kit vs. custom? Apples for some, oranges for others ... it's still fruit ... eat it and shut-up . Sheesh. [/quote]Well, I AM entitled to my opinion ... my comment on apples and oranges is a general statement to everyone considering a turbo install, not a flame toward you personally. But there were quite a few posts before you got back to it, thus to me it seemed like trolling. BTW, now everybody please take this lightly as I am stating this in a calm manner so as not to be taken out of context ... I do not use my computer as a sheild for being sarcastic (which I wasn't) and I DO believe I'm no punk either. I'm very straight forward and would have no problem "hashing" with anyone in person ... again it's context and how it's taken; in person I think you might have found my answer humorous, ar-ar.

BTW, thanks for the compliment on my car

Getting back to the topic, I will agree with the fact that some kits are overpriced for what you get ... thus why I have always chose to go my own route with performance. Anything I do always, and I mean ALWAYS ends up being expensive and taking LONG periods of time in comparison to an off the shelf kit; so really cost and time don't matter to me. But to those who don't have the knowledge, patience to research or funding to do so either, a kit makes logistical and yes "economical" sense in terms of consumer pleasing and time/money spent. Now, any good kit builder/fabricator will also stand behind their products and fix or replace what fails due to their error, log the occurrences and improve the failed product as needed (example, B&M re: short shifter) ... anyone who doesn't won't be in business long.

[Structure240sx]

well spoken scotty

[Projex240]

well ill admit that i got severely pissed at all of the negative sarcasm in the replys after my beginning post. I am always the first to admit if i get out of control. so i definately apologize if i took any one elses comments out of context...its difficult to determine whether someone is kidding with a sense of humor or just being a plain smartass. And just to clear it up, that comment was directed solely towards you, scotty...but all those in general who DO use this as a way mock people only because they are simply regurgitating what they have heard others state. I have no pateince for people who do alot of talking just to hear themselves talk. any others who want to talk about the pros/cons and/or justifications for bolt on kits? what i will say is that, scotty may be right, a manufacturer will most likely stand by their product, but only if you have meet what they would consider guidelines for a good install. HAs anyone here seen someone construct a downpipe without a flexpeice? I have seen companies(to remain nameless) who have voided the warranty due to the fact the manifolds cracked because of jarring of the exhaust system hitting bumps. we have all seen manifolds crack many times...the biggest problem i see with a cast manifold that comes in a kit, is that they are cheap. And if they crack? the manufacturer, if they decied to, will replace it, but youve got to send it back in first...which means downtime. I HATE unnessecary downtime. My advice, use a manifold like nsports...but they are too expensive...use jgstools. havent headr of any of those cracking unless the person did it themselves poorly.

[scotty-2-forty]

Quote »And just to clear it up, that comment was directed solely towards you, scotty...but all those in general who DO use this as a way mock people only because they are simply regurgitating what they have heard others state. [/quote]Maybe it's me, but did you mean "wasn't" ... hey, it's late; I'll understand. I really think it's a good time for a group hug. :cuddle

DISCLAIMER: The preceeding was an affectionate note of humorous content and was meant in no way to cause harm or painful skin irritations to small farm animals and various breeds of tuna. The commentator shares no resemblence of any kind whatsoever to that of Elvis and shall not be held responsible for it's lucidity. 1.5% financing is available to those who qualify if you truly believe it is. See you in Cuba; say hi to Castro for me; will do. May I mambo-dogface to the banana patch? Holy crap Marie. :help

[aleph1]

The way I see it, by the time someone fully understands turbos, turboing their engine, and the parts within a kit....they would have-for lack of a better word-"matured" enough to WANT to build their own kit because they would have spent so much time researching products and what works and what doesn't for their particular goals and car.

Please don't take this like I'm saying that people with kits are immature kids, this is not true. Its hard to explain. Not to mention the lack of funds for a kit will certainly "buy" (pun intended) you time to research PLENTY =) Baby steps...

Continuing the 300whp thing, I realized that I completely forgot to even acknowledge RPM and how high the GSR goes. As orion previous said, this is a major factor. And what projex said is also true, an efficient drivetrain gets drops less crank hp...I still believe I can get 300rwhp (with a T3/T4) from a KA with 10psi though. =)

[4felix20]

I appreciate every thread contrasting (even comparing) turbo kits to building up your own turbo system, whether there are 10 others or not. Sometimes, the search engine doesn't always bring up what you want it to. I'm trying to pick and choose individual pieces...but I'm not too sure about the pieces i want. threads like these help out.

[SSS]

One thing about the "can't run more than 10psi" remark, sure, you can run 15psi all day every day on stock internals, but on the SOHC don't expect the ring lands to hold up for very long.

[Projex240]

Exactly my point...10 psi is not a threshold. Granted I havent worked much on the sohc, but the ringlands, while weak, will hold fine on the dohc as long as there is NOOOOO detonation. Like i mentioned on another post, dennis was running his motor boosting up to 15 lbs for a long time...he was putting like 360 to the wheels. Thats about right on target with what someone said about 12.5 hp per pound of boost. 5 lbs difference... equals 62.5 hp with that persons equation. so sure...10 lbs can very realistically create 300 hp to the wheels.Anybody??

[TurboKA37]

yes 12.5 hp per psi is attainable but do think that is going to happen right after putting a turbo kit on. ur looking at doing some very good tuning plus upgrading the ignition, fuel system, cams, prolly no cat, port & polish, etc to get that amount of hp per psi.

[:: orion ::]

The only issue with using Dennis' dyno as a yardstick is that, despite what you may have read...the peak power was made at ~17psi, and the dyno was done with no exhaust on the car. So we certainly can't compare it to our daily drivers, and 15psi was not the exact boost...

And IIRC, the exact # he made was 347rwhp on that pull...

Here's a link to the chart...

But using 12.5rwhp per psi as the easily attainable power level, let's say that a decent KA makes 150rwhp in N/A tune. We need another 150rwhp to hit the 300 mark - [150/12.5] = 12psi.

And that's been proven more times than not - TY made 318rwhp at ~14psi, but with a 248/232 cam setup not geared for top end power.

Greaser is currently running a big T04 on his KAT (a PT61 to be exact) and made 251rwhp at 10psi.

Here's the thread from FA on it... - But he also ran a 12.84 @ 107mph with that setup - So he's DEFINITELY making more than 250rwhp - More like 280. (He's a damn good drag racer - That 60' time was 1.7!!!) You'll notice in the FA thread he points oout that the dyno #s from previous runs are suspect...it seems to read a little low.

So, more food for thought...

Later - Brian

[king_johnthegreat]

Well, let me say I'm sorry. I DID come off smug; but I must also say that the initial post truely offended me. I am in business to sell these kits, and as I said, I am closer to offering them at $3000, than I am to selling them at $4000. I defend the people who are in the market for a system they simply couldn't or wouldn't engineer themselves. It seemed to like you were making the blanket statement that all bolt-on kits were a waste. To some, they are the only answer. Besides, who here hasn't read the posts made by some 14 year old who thinks he can build a better system with legos and PVC? I think we all get a little tired of reading those, feeling as though people are speaking down to us. Usually my posts are very nice, factual, and to the point. I hate career flamers; you know, the people who never say anything worth while, or nice. I'm not one of them. As for my signature, it is WAY out of date. My truck has a T3/T04E Super 50 trim Ceramic Ball Bearing turbo, with a .63 A/R and a stage III wheel. I also run a Spearco 2-231 liquid to air intercooler. I am running low boost, until I get the rest finished up, but you can see some mildely out of date pics here. I won't bother listing my other mods, it would like half the sigs in this forum!! Besides, it's nothing special, for now. Anyhow, I guess it just got under my skin, and I let it. I don't want to sound like an *** again, but maybe rethinking some of the wording to your posts could limit the emotion it evokes. I don't think I'm the only one who read you wrong, that's all. I hope this helps,John

[TurboKA37]

johnthe great: nice work on ur engine. that thing is gonna be sweet

[king_johnthegreat]

Thanks, TurboKA37. You like the overabundance of "Ricer Red?":rolleyes I guess I got a little carried away with all that convoluted tubing!! Before I'm done, I guess I might tone that down a bit.John

[TurboKA37]

yea that would be a good thing. my eyes started to hurt from the bright red glare coming from ur engine bay

[C-Kwik]

Projex240 - consider you state in caps:

"DO NOT SPEND YOUR MONEY ON BOLT ON KITS!!"

and you expect not to get flamed? It also isn't indicative of someone trying to get feedback. A request for feedback usually doesn't start with such a bold statement. And as much as you want the rest of us to respect your opinion, you must respect ours. Even if you do not agree. Respect has nothing to do with who is wrong or right. Just the fact that you will listen to what others have to say just as much as you want everyone else to listen to you.

[detforme]

i dont know why everyone hates the revhard mani so much. revhard has changed the design, the ports will match as a top mount setup now. which was half the reason the used to crack, all i did was drill the mounting holes slightly. yes they're hard to get certain clearances with, but everything on my car has been worked out. i can weld half decently and would much rather buy a cast manifold. i peiced my setup together, but it took a lot of work. i would definetly understand why someone would buy a kit. hey projex have you ever cut-welded i/c piping from straight pipe? if your talking about prices thats the cheapest way to go. i paid 30 bucks for my piping, and it took 2 WEEKS TO MAKE. your also forgeting the cost of little stuff that kits come with. try t-bar clamps for i/c piping at $5 each. silicon couplings, clutch, exhaust, downpipe, silicon hoses, oil lines and fittings, and for excellent tuning i guess you mean standalone? how much do those run? i priced out my stuff at 2500 also. it ended up at 4500. a setup will never cost what you think it will.

[Structure240sx]

when did the revised revhard mani come out? i ordered my nsport kit in may and now its jsut waiting for the intercooler. do u think it will have the new mani?

[Projex240]

oh yeah. i agree about the whole thing cutting and welding your own pipes for i/c. Thats what ive done. The only downside, is that unless youre pretty decent at welding, it wont look as good, as if you used pre bent stuff with couplings or whatever your prefernce was. About the caps post i made....of course i wantd feedback. but not in a negative and flaming way. responses, not a bunch of *****y disagreements. oh well....watre under the bridge. good feedback everyone. what about the stanalone thing....? any comments on managing you tubro setup without breaking the bank?

[DaveEEE]

Jumping in late but, he's right... The nsport t4 sure does feel nice at 18+psi.

[king_johnthegreat]

I'm pretty green on the whole standalone issue, but from what I've heard LinkPlus is pretty tight. Anyone else have any experience with the Link systems? I would consider them, after hearing that they are below $1000. I was thinking Motec, second choice would be Haltech. If I do a complete swap with the '95 donor motor into my truck, I almost considered the JWT retune. Not thinking about that any more, though. Besides, I already sold the ECU. Standalone is definitely the way to go, money permitting, though.John

[C-Kwik]

i dont know why everyone hates the revhard mani so much. revhard has changed the design, the ports will match as a top mount setup now. which was half the reason the used to crack, all i did was drill the mounting holes slightly.

Really? I just bought a new one last month and the ports did not line up. But in either case, the poor port matching is not the cause of cracking. Manifolds generally crack due to heat expansion. And since the revhard uses a one piece flange, it is more likely to crack. And it does have a lot of cast flashing. But like I've said before, these are very easily fixed.

[detforme]

right. but when the ports dont match the heat travels over the edges cause the metal to heat faster. i dont know when yours was made but mine match. oh well either way im not saying they're the best way to go. i just like it better than the jgs.

[Prof_Frink]

king_johnthegreat - What parts are you adding to get the kit from 220-230 whp to 300whp for $200. How long would it take for you to put it together? I am pretty new to turbos, and I am trying to decide between getting a kit, or lots of R&D and making one. I got hooked on boost in my friends GN and T-types. I would like to put a system together, bu it would be my first attempt, so I'm kind of nervous. Right now I kind of consider the extra price of a kit as an insurance policy. I've done rebuilds, bolt on mods, etc and am decent at fabrication, but I lack experience with turbo systems. I love my 240, and I don't want an SR, so KA-T is the way I want to go. With the cheap price of the KA's I could afford to blow one up, but I would rather just get it right =). This site is great. Props to WDRacing too, I 've learned a lot from you already. Thanks!

[northstar ninja]

Good topic... a little rough at the start , but its good to see that people can be mature and put diffrences aside. After all its all about the cars anyways... and yeah.. i just realized this post was mad old... oh well...g-