Been debating whether to post this...

[Bubba1]

I think this issue is a classic reason why there is and should continue to be separation of church and state. Unfortunately Mr. Bush would like to the two combined, and that's unfortunate. It's fine that he has the religous belief that gay marriages are wrong. But this is not a nation of one religion with one view of homosexuality. It's a melting pot. Substitute a word like "african-American" or"interracial" for "gay" before marriage, and it's discrimination. Bush's law still singles out a minority. The Supreme court will obviously rule it unconstitutional. I have no issue with religions prohibiting gay marriages, that's their perogative, but drafting a law to prevent legal gay unions because you consider it "sinful" is discrimination. Plain and simple.

I think Mr. Bush needs to come up with a better non-faith-based reason why gays should not be legally "patnered". If he can't, then he should worry about more pressing problems, like the budget or economy. Just my $.02

The skies are not going to fall, and the world is going to end asa result of two men or two women making a legal union.

[Movingviolation240]

I think your missing my point, I just want to nuke france....

But seriously I don't think homosexuality should be regonized as a relegion. Think of it this way (since the moral arguement and the religious one dosn't work around here) you are goign to be paying more on your insurance to suport some gay guy's husband because he got sick. End of story..... simple economics.

But the fact remains that I dont suport that lifestyle and I don't want to see it become anymore mainstream than it is. If I decided tomorrow that I wanted to have sex with 10 year old girls because "that is my sexual preference and I can't help that I was born that way" would it be ok for me to do that? What if I wanted to have sex with animals? Where do you draw the line?

Paul

[big jon's 240]

I think your missing my point, I just want to nuke france....

:Werd Same sex marriage is not an issue of religion, its a matter of nature. Wasnt meant to be and shouldnt be.

[Bubba1]

I think your missing my point, I just want to nuke france....

But seriously I don't think homosexuality should be regonized as a relegion. Think of it this way (since the moral arguement and the religious one dosn't work around here) you are goign to be paying more on your insurance to suport some gay guy's husband because he got sick. End of story..... simple economics.

But the fact remains that I dont suport that lifestyle and I don't want to see it become anymore mainstream than it is. If I decided tomorrow that I wanted to have sex with 10 year old girls because "that is my sexual preference and I can't help that I was born that way" would it be ok for me to do that? What if I wanted to have sex with animals? Where do you draw the line?

Paul

I agree with you about France (snicker) . Seriously, I'm not suggesting homosexuality should be considered a religion. But its is a bona fide recognized minority, just like African-Americans. And there are a lot of people that discriminate against people purely because they fall into a minority. And to write laws against a specific group because they are a minority is discrimination and its wrong. Oppression is not fun when you are the oppressed. Ask a Jew or African American about what's it's like to face bigotry. It's not pleasant.

As far as the insurance question, let me ask you, which is cheaper to insure, two single male adults on two separate policies, or one "family policy". Gay unions should not affect you unless you're gay, so I'm still looking for a non-faith based reason to deny gays the opportunity to have a legal union. I'm willing to listen.

"Drawing the line" is very easy. Sex between two consenting adults is legal. Sex with a child or animal are serious crimes. Sex with Tino's mom, well, that's something else, I suppose. My point is you cannot not legislate against something legal just because you disagree with it. Maybe we should ban riced up 4 door Honda Accord mom-mobiles next. I find many of them repulsive.

Regards.

[Sopdadope]

:Werd Same sex marriage is not an issue of religion, its a matter of nature. Wasnt meant to be and shouldnt be.

We also weren't meant to fly. Your argument ain't holding any water.

[Nathan]

Yeah, I'm sure it's a first class ticket to hell, I wouldnt ACTUALLY do it, it's just a nice thought I'll be back later to respond in depth to other things...

[Sopdadope]

TIME-OUT GUYS:

Speaking of interracial...

Sky, I'm not much of a smooth talker so I'll keep this short and sweet. 3 words for ya: Me. You. Boom Boom. :ylsuper

[big jon's 240]

We also weren't meant to fly. Your argument ain't holding any water.

You can fly?

[Movingviolation240]

TIME-OUT GUYS:

Speaking of interracial...

Sky, I'm not much of a smooth talker so I'll keep this short and sweet. 3 words for ya: Me. You. Boom Boom. :ylsuper

hmmm be nice, I'd hate to see "things" happen to you...... bad things :bash

[Movingviolation240]

[quote=" Bubba1 [B"Drawing the line" is very easy. Sex between two consenting adults is legal. Sex with a child or animal are serious crimes.My point is you cannot not legislate against something legal just because you disagree with it. [/quote]

Exactly, so if you find me banging an 8 year old wrong but since it's what I want to do and I was born that way. Your just being opressive against me because you don't like my POV.

And as far as Jews or Affrican americans, I think they bring 90% of their problems on themselvs. When you have guys like Jessie Jackson going around and making up 'injustices' just so he can profit off it.... it's not going to improve things. My family is German, we got off the boat 3 generations ago and we were spat on, worthless imigrants. Now we speak like everybody else, look and act like any other 'normal' person and are accepted. The melting pot called America works. BUT some ppl are trying too hard to hold onto somthing that nobody else understands. If your gonna live here work, act, talk, live like the rest of us and you'll fit right in. The Irish were hated more than the blacks durring the potato famine but they worked their butts off and became a productive part of society. I'm more anoyed that people keep talkin about it and making it a problem than just letting it die. I think if everybody would just quit worrying about it life would be a whole lot easier for us all.

but that's my 2 yen (and that ain't worth a damn thing hehe)

Paul

[InstantRice]

Jews and african americans bring 90% of their problems upon themselves. That is one of the most rediculous comments ive ever heard. I just want to hear you justify this. A black guy was hanging out with 2 white guys and ended up getting dragged from the back of a pick up, but that was his fault. A psycho comes into a jewish daycare and starts shooting up the place, but those kids brought it upon themselves. Sure black people wanted to take that nice ride to the "new world" on that luxury yacht. What next the American indians brought that whole little genocide thing on themselves? If you think that a whole group of people should be thought of in one respect because one person, Jessie Jackson for example(who has done WAY more good for black people then he has for linning his pocket), then why dont you group whites in general with david duke. The irish where hated here for a brief period(in comparison). Jews and Blacks have had to deal with oppression for somewhere around forever.

christ, i post a ton of senseless jokes on here but that was one of the most disturbing lines in any post in nico and i reallyhate seeing things like that on here.

[InstantRice]

I am not very religous and am not a Homosexual...

Personally, my belief is that If you love something thats your decision. I don't think religion should be involved but no matter how we put it, but that fact is will be. The President and "nearly" all pollations are regligous. I havn't heard of many that arn't. It shouldn't be banned. Thats like saying we should bring back segregation. Do people have that much hate in people. I feel if you vote yes to ban gay marriages you have hate in a certain type of people. There is no priniple behind all of this. I think a men and a women is more "functional" but doesn't mean that homosexuals don't have the same "loving-caring" relationship. Is the idea of seeing something different bad?

This is from a 16 year olds perspective showing that Generation X is not the stereotypical view some people see.-Ron

Man i agreed with everything you had to say, but we are not generation x...

[Movingviolation240]

What about the white kids who killed all the white kids in their own school? Or the gangs that make you kill a white person to get in. What about all the cops killed because they're cops. Or the Americans killed in the world trade center because they are americans. Your points are irrelevent because that's not society as a whole, that's the work of a few sick individuals. It happens on both sides of the fence and it goes both ways. I'm talkin about society in general, the work place, ect. If everybody wants to be equal get rid of affirmitive action, treat everybody the same, and put everybody on the same page. Corprate america isn't about black or white or brown, it's about numbers. Whoever produces the most product at the highest quality will get the job. They arn't worried about anything but the almighty dollar. If you can do the job they will give it to you untill they find sombody who can do it better. Why do we need quota's? IMHO they do nothing but divide the workforce. If you look in the personel files (at least in my dad's 300+employee company) it says nothing about what color, ethnicity, or religion they are. Just what they do, who they do it for, and how good they do it.

And no matter what you say Jessie Jackson is a lying SOB and a shakedown artist. His lies start out with DR. Martin Luther King dying in his arms and havn't stoped since. If you want to talk about sombody who's done more to advance the black race in the eyes of the average american Jackson hasn't accomplished anything but a giant leap back. You need to be looking up to Powell, I'd vote for him in a second if he ran in 2008. That's the kind of 'lead from the front and dont look back' kinda guy that needs to be a hero in the civil rights movement. He made it where he is on his own merrits and in my opinion he's one of the most respected guys in goverment today.

Paul

[[Zero-S]]

He's definitely earned my respect.

[Movingviolation240]

I think this thread is about to get WAY out of control, so I'm gonna lock it down at 8am tomorrow. I don't want anybody saying I did it 'early' because I'm a sore looser or want to make my point and have that be it.

So, 8am tomorrow, get in what you want before that or that's it.

Thanks

Paul

[InstantRice]

Agreed on certain points. But if you think that everyone in corporate america is completely colorblind your living in a fools world. If you think the young men who used to harrass black people always grow up to be white people who are giving members of the naacp then your completely blind. Many black people do have a problem getting jobs from corprate america. Affirmative action should be phased out at somepoint but its not quite there.

and on the topic of powell its silly for him to run. He is probably the only black person that would run and get next to none of the black vote. Black people arent to fond on Powell, A he is a republican, and B he hasnt done anything profound for black communities. most african americans think its a joke when white people say he should run for president. But hey, he's so well spoken.

You never explained how Blacks and Jews brought 90% of there problems upon themselves. Im sure all those africans loved that boat ride.

[InstantRice]

paul why are you going to lock it down? No ones came on and said anything that has been outlandish. Its people expressing opinions in a pretty elegant manner. at least wait for someone to get outta hand.

[Movingviolation240]

the Jews at alchwitz (SP) or the blacks on the boats had no choice in the circumstances they were put in. But the generations since have been the ones causing the problem IMHO. There is a big difference in remembering the past so as to not forget it and in reliving it day to day to try and keep it alive to milk it for all it's worth (which is what jackson is doing IMHO).

I'm sorry you don't like Powell, maybe it's not a black white thing afterall..... maybe it's just a conservative libral thing..... like I said I don't care one way or the other I just go with guys who have my POV.

Paul

[InstantRice]

Jews: centurys of slavery/oppressioin, millions of people slainBlacks: centurys of slavery/oppression, forced relocation/breeding

not the easiest things to forget.

powell is probably a combination conservative/libral and race issue. well enought of this for the night, off i go to get hammered

[Megaseth]

this may be taken as a racist statement, but oh well, wont be the first time i offended someone. slavery started when rival tribes captured and sold each other into slavery. it wasnt white guys netting people to take back as slaves. and jews have had it pretty bad.

[Sopdadope]

You can fly?

Sure can, I just click my heels three times and I'm off! I don't know what cave you just crawled out of, but...NEWS FLASH: the wright brothers invented this nifty lil thing we call...airplanes.

"Blacks and Jews bring 90% of their problems upon themselves."

MUAHAHAHAHA!! ouch...stomach....cramps....

Have you ever spent a day in the life of a black man? It's easy to brush off their tribulations as annoying bellyaching because you can't even begin to fathom their experiences. Like every other American, your lineage can be traced back to immigrants who've been exposed to racism but as you are now, you are NOT a visual minority. Truth is, the glass ceiling still does exist in many businesses and I've experienced it first hand.

At least I agree with you on one item: affirmative action. I'd feel short-changed if someone spotted me 'points' because of extra melanin in my skin. I'd like to accomplish things on my own merit thank you very much.

But man, I'm still reeling from your above statement. Why would you even venture to say something like that? Phew....Someone's lost some major, major credibility points.

[skydragoness]

i don't think this issue should be based on feelings, morals, and opinions, these are all very arbitary, it should be based on laws, and peoples rights

Quote »2. the one reason that i personally don't understand peoples oppositon to homosexual marriages is this: what difference does it make to you?? if you aren't directly affected by this, then why should you care?? [/quote]

well said yashin! one important thing i'd like to add to that is that before someone is gay they are a PERSON first.

I think this issue is a classic reason why there is and should continue to be separation of church and state.

thankyou. that isn't stressed enough.

Speaking of foreign perspectives, the Bush administration just made a laughing-stock out of itself by even addressing the issue of gay marriages when there's a laundry list of issues that carry greater salience. .

you know. i would've been more impressed by the administration if they dismissed the issue for a later date in *order* to address the more important issues on hand. this whole statement released by the president is so blantantly trying to turn the public's eye away from iraq/liberia/everything else it's disgusting.

[Sopdadope]

hmmm be nice, I'd hate to see "things" happen to you...... bad things :bash

That is nice, it's called cro-magnon charm.

Seriously, Sky's a cool chic though. Good looks, razor sharp wit, opinionated, dyed-in-the-wool car geek and I'd bet, a heart as big as her words. OH YEAH and she likes Dragons!!! If I ever met her, I'd probably kiss the ground she'd walk on.

BTW, is that supposed to be a threat? Go ahead and ban me, there's no way I could pry myself from this site anyway (jungles of southeast asia are a callin').

[fiznat]

skydragoness5, InstantRice, and Sopdadope: excellent points throughout the thread. I read through all of this late (just seeing it now), but every time I read something I felt I needed to comment on you guys were right there to say exactly what I would have. I agree with pretty much all of what each of you has said.

I really agree that this is a disgusting attempt by the administration to distract people from talking about the *real* issues in washington (and indeed abroad) lately. It blows my mind how this administration has been found time and time again to blatently mislead the public in order to push through it's own adgendas, and honestly I am embarassed to be part of a public that seems to be so easly manipulated. Wake up and look around at what's happening, people. Read the friggin' newspaper and THINK for a goddamn change!

Arrugh sorry... I just cant even explain how wrong all of this is.

[fiznat]

btw, Sopdadope- where abouts in Boston are ya? I go to BU during the school year...

[fiznat]

ALSO:

there is no reason to close this thread simply because it is a touchy issue. everyone is keeping it VERY civil-- I think it's silly to close a thread down just because you think it MIGHT turn ugly later.

most of us here aren't children, there's no need for you to hold our hands and make sure things are all sugar sweet for us. we can handle this.

[Nathan]

Actually, purely white people are the minority in the US, the other races far outnumber the whites (although yes, the whites are the largest single race) It's especially biased against white's here in texas. I hate when white's are discriminated against by other races. THe whole issue of race is stupid, it doesnt matter what color you are, if you treat me as an equal, I will treat you as an equal...but dont ***** needlessly about some stupid glass ceiling, get out there and work hard and break through it. Women had to do it, dont you think other races are good enough too? If this doesnt make sense or is off topic...I'm too tired to put together coherent thought.

[Megaseth]

i totally agree with you nathan. and thats about all i can say right at this moment cause im pretty tired too, altough its more cause i cant sleep cause my dog might die due to gastro-intestinal hemoraging.

[Movingviolation240]

BTW, is that supposed to be a threat? Go ahead and ban me, there's no way I could pry myself from this site anyway (jungles of southeast asia are a callin').

That's just humor sir, I happen to like Sky and we're good freinds. I think what you said was however slightly disrespectful but that's not my place to get involved. I wouldn' t ban you for somthin like that (I've actually never banned anybody from NICO).

This thread is so far off topic if you want to talk about race relations start a new thread, this one was about Gay's and I think that subject has been pretty well exhausted.

If anybody wants to say anything else Email me offlist [email protected] buh bye

Paul