Arizona’s Jan Brewer...racist?

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PHOENIX (AP) — Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer said Friday most illegal immigrants entering Arizona are being used to transport drugs across the border, an assertion that critics painted as exaggerated and racist.

Brewer said the motivation of "a lot" of the illegal immigrants is to enter the United States to look for work, but that drug rings press them into duty as drug "mules."


No...not exactly racist but she is pushing the envelope(sp). In my opinion it falls into the category of ignorant with a small hint racism , but the real kicker in my opinion was she contradicts herself which makes her look even more uneducated.


Public Enemy (By the time I get to Arizona) "I urinated on this state while I was kicking this song" - Chuck D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7MjSXiCuuw

Look out Brewer! :ohno:


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Doesn't strike me as racist. Maybe it's wrong, maybe it's a foolishly broad generalization, but not particularly racist. Not like she said "Most brown people in the state today..."

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Whoever says thats racist should be asked to define racism ... they probably couldnt, at least not accurately

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80% of Arizonans support SB1070. Numerous other states are scrambling to enact their OWN version of the bill.

In actuality, Brewer's comments weren't far off, now that experts have chimed in.

The liberal pantywaists who just want to kick the door down and hand over the country are getting a lesson in what it's like to be told to STFU... finally.

I've found that the word "racist" is commonly used by people who are incapable of higher-level thinking. Don't be that guy. :)

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People can take their accusations of racism and shove it up their asses.

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audtatious wrote:People can take their accusations of racism and shove it up their asses.
Truth.

If you come here illegally, we can only assume you have come to do something illegal, like run drugs, murder, rape, etc.

Jan Brewer rocks.

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Or like *gasp* work off the books! :blush:

We needn't make that assumption. In fact, that assumption is what gets us into trouble. When we start bothering illegal immigrants because we think they're all violent (a thought that finds no basis in any fact or statistic that I've ever seen), that means we're busy not bothering other people, who might actually be violent. And then there's the chance that we're bothering people who only look like illegal immigrants.

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In the end no points other then one matter. Illegal is illegal, period. Just like everything else that is illegal, it needs to be dealt with according to the written law. Without law what are we?

Personally IDGAF about immigration anymore, what has become unequivocally clear is that our Federal Government as a whole is broken. Immigration reform or lack there of is just another high light of just how broken we have become. Unfortunately we're now hand cuffing states that try to make up for the Fed Gov short comings. THAT imo is the real issue here.

Either enforce the written law as it appears RIGHT NOW, or allow steps to be taken for states to enforce the law themselves. As a citizen I have rights and I expect them to be protected. The suit filed yesterday declares in no uncertain terms that citizens of another country are taking precedence over citizens of this country.

This isn't a problem with the current administration either, it's a problem that has festered for years. Our Gov is running the country while wearing horse blinders and they are doing a bang up job.

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WDRacing wrote:In the end no points other then one matter. Illegal is illegal, period. Just like everything else that is illegal, it needs to be dealt with according to the written law. Without law what are we?
Except that's not how it works. From the cop on the street to the prosecutor to the jury in the courtroom, there's nearly infinite levels of discretion built into our justice system. We have this because we recognize that not all laws are created equal.

That's why we don't require a police officer to drag a speeding driver off to jail every time they're pulled over. Heck, that's why we don't require a police officer to pull over every speeding driver. That's why our DA's and AG's get discretion in which cases they see as worth prosecuting. That's why jury nullification is a long-lived tradition in American jurisprudence. Our legal system is one that only looks like a system of absolutes from a distance.

Crime is not crime is not crime. A murder is not theft. A theft is not rape. A rape is not a DUI. A DUI is not changing lanes without signalling. Changing lanes without signalling is not crossing an arbitrary line on a map without paperwork. And crossing an arbitrary line on a map without paperwork is not murder.

Every time we commit ourselves to fighting one type of crime, we necessarily sacrifice our potential efforts elsewhere. You can fight murder without fighting illegal immigration. You can fight drug trafficking without illegal immigration. You can fight tax evasion without fighting illegal immigration. And you can fight illegal immigration without fighting any of those other things. But you might not be able to do all of it. It's a matter of priorities, and the American legal system is meant to account for them, and to give us the tools to prioritize things ourselves.

If you think illegal immigration should be a higher priority, that's fine. But don't feed me the "illegal is illegal" line, because it's never really been that way.
WDRacing wrote:The suit filed yesterday declares in no uncertain terms that citizens of another country are taking precedence over citizens of this country.
The suit filed yesterday declares, in no uncertain terms, that only Congress has the power to determine the naturalization process, and to protect our borders. And that declaration is supported by 140 years of legal precedence. If you want the federal government to do something about it, vote. States don't get to take matters into their own hands when the Constitution explicitly states as much.

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You're simply justifying inaction...which is fine because it's all your opinion. You can keep yours and I'll keep mine. Our 140 years of precedent does nothing but handicap real change from taking place.

If your stance is that a State has no right to enforce otherwise unenforced laws simply because it's the Fed Gov domain then you're always going to be on the other side of the fence from me. The Fed Gov is not defending my rights and no amount of voting will change that because the entire system is broken and without some sort of revolution there will never be any actual change. The two parties with all the money will remain in power and continue to run this country into the ground. They were skirt any politically disastrous reform simply because they can't benefit from it. Other then painting the other party in a bad light. No one is actually trying to solve the real issue. We have 140 years of precedent to support that as well.

Vote for change sounds nice, but it's a broken ideal. All our votes do is give someone else the power to vote for us. Their campaigns are always full of lies and empty promises, I can sight 140 years of precedent for that as well.

Politician = Liar, again we have that 140 years of precedent proving it.

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No, WD. There are reasons for the separation, and if I had to pick one right now, I'd probably point to the fact that we're dealing with a federal border, not a state one, and we're talking about American citizenship, not Arizonan citizenship.

The Constitution was written purposefully, and the ideals that led the fathers then are just as applicable today. Explaining that illegal is not always illegal, practically-speaking, is not a justification of inaction. Neither am I justifying federal inaction by pulling the rug out from under your justification for state action.

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Is it not a state border also? Kinda reminds me of that old "how many triangles do you see" puzzle. If a state shares a border with a federal border, does that negate their right to defend it?

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Let's also remember how many foreign borders we, as a country, possessed when the Constitution was drafted... ;)

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stebo0728 wrote:Is it not a state border also? Kinda reminds me of that old "how many triangles do you see" puzzle. If a state shares a border with a federal border, does that negate their right to defend it?
It negates their right to craft and enforce policy around it, Stebo. The federal government sees it as one contiguous border. Were it left to the States, we'd have four distinct Mexican borders.
AZhitman wrote:Let's also remember how many foreign borders we, as a country, possessed when the Constitution was drafted... ;)
It's still just one, Greg, for the continental US. Gets more squishy when you look at territories and non-contiguous states, but those aren't really the borders in question, are they?

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One?

Did we forget those wacky Canucks?

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IBCoupe wrote:Were it left to the States, we'd have four distinct Mexican borders.
Hmmmm. Not a bad idea.

We have a national interstate system, but maintenance and construction of those is left to the states. AZ's stretch of I-10 is a lot nicer than CA's piece... Hmmm.

Yeah. I like that idea. Sovereignty and states' rights. Has a nice, almost "revolutionary" ring to it. ;)

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AZhitman wrote:One?

Did we forget those wacky Canucks?
No, we didn't. Being that the border doesn't end when it meets the ocean, it can be seen to wrap the whole country.

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AZhitman wrote:We have a national interstate system, but maintenance and construction of those is left to the states. AZ's stretch of I-10 is a lot nicer than CA's piece... Hmmm.
Called the "Inter-State" system for a reason. Notably different from the United States Border.

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My point was, we have two foreign borders - the one we share with Mexico, and that we share with Canada.

Your next one is purely semantics, you know what I meant, and I suspect you're either not pleased with my incredibly brilliant comparison ( ;) ) or you're being obstinate.

My HYPOTHETICAL point was, the interstate system is federally-managed, no different from border security. Yet states can manage their portion of the interstate as they see fit (within reason), so why not their borders?

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AZhitman wrote:My point was, we have two foreign borders - the one we share with Mexico, and that we share with Canada.

Your next one is purely semantics, you know what I meant, and I suspect you're either not pleased with my incredibly brilliant comparison ( ;) ) or you're being obstinate.

My HYPOTHETICAL point was, the interstate system is federally-managed, no different from border security. Yet states can manage their portion of the interstate as they see fit (within reason), so why not their borders?
And my point, Greg, is that to the federal government, as far as crafting policy for naturalization and citizenship policy goes, it's all one border.

The semantics are an issue, here, because they point out exactly what I'm saying: the interstate system is different from our foreign border because it exists on an inter-state basis. At no point does our interstate system continue on into another country, right (I can't think of any, but I'm not intimately familiar with the ends of our interstate system)? In contrast, at no point does our foreign border cut between two (adjacent) states. The foreign border exists in relation to other countries, and it is Constitutionally-mandated to be maintained on a federal level.

And on a purely legalese type of reasoning, the management of the interstate system is proscribed by Congress. The federal border is dictated by the Constitution to be solely managed by Congress.

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IBC, you're a smart dude. I often disagree with your opinion, but I always enjoy hearing your perspective on things. I love the Constitution, I wish we governed by it more closely where it comes to freedoms especially. I have to think though, when they were writing that exceptionally well crafted document, the authors would never take into account the Federal Government not defending our southern border. Nor would they believe that the Federal Government would not only fail to enforce written law, but refuse to have a State enforce the law in place of the Federal Government.

The fact that the Federal Government has failed at something directly under it's sole control should in no way become a Constitutional issue. The Federal Government has already voted and made the laws requiring security at the border and due process for legal entry into the United States. When the Constitution was drafted, you have to believe they would want the Federal Government to comply with border security as one of it's main objectives, or it wouldn't have been explicitly explained like you keep pointing out. Their only argument for not enforcing the border can be lack of resources. Anything else amounts to negligence, not just by the current administration, but by all of the preceding ones.

In light of the Federal Government failing to comply with law it voted into writing, the State should be able to assume a role where it can take steps to comply with the law already in place if there is a lack of enforcement, especially if the State officials went through the States due process and the Governor of the state has to make a decision that directly effects not only the Security of their State but all of the States current residents. Which she is bound by oath to do btw. Residents that are paying for that security through Federal tax. Tax that the Federal Government is not using to secure the safety of the residents of whatever State is in question.

When the Constitution is blatantly ignored, you can't use Constitutional law as a basis for suit. Filing suit and claiming Constitutional violation is a misuse of it's power, especially when the Federal Government is already acting in direct violation of the very thing thing they are trying to use as justification. To stifle the State and it's majority using the Constitution of the United States as justification makes me a little nauseous when the State is trying to protect the Constitutional rights of it's citizens to begin with.

Not to bad for 1 cup of coffee :chuckle:

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You're not too shabby, yourself. I like how you guys all write out calmly and clearly, without resorting to insults (or, as happens in my workplace, questioning my patriotism and devotion to my country). It's refreshing from most other venues for political discussion, especially from what's found on the politics board on the other forum.

I'm not entirely convinced that the founders would have a big problem with the way the Federal government is (or isn't) responding to the problems along the Mexican border. There are two entirely different forms of border security - national sovereignty, and individual movement. The people that come across our southern border are not, by and large, agents working for the Mexican government. They are individuals working for themselves.

The first illegal immigration law wasn't passed until the late 19th century, targeting Chinese laborers, nearly a century after the signing of the Constitution. There were hordes of non-citizens living and working in the United States, and the Constitution is eerily silent on the issue. Libertarians that many of the founding fathers were, one can't help but wonder if they'd say, "They want to come here and get none of the legal rights and privileges associated with citizenship, work horrible hours, be exploited by employers, and still, by a majority, pay taxes into the system? Sounds pretty foolish, but, hey, go ahead." Michelle Malkin will be quick to tell you that a few of the founding fathers each had a sentence or two about the need for cultural assimilation, as per her column on July 2d, but she didn't seem to come up with anything that suggested they saw having proper papers as being important.

This country was founded with laissez-faire ideals when it came to individual freedoms. I don't think that border security is any exception. Throughout history (and pre-history), human beings have always traveled where they wanted to, through porous borders, settling where they felt best, and doing what they felt was best for them. This doesn't change just because we erect some fencing and pass some laws, and I'd be surprised if the founding fathers had any preconceptions to the contrary.

I have one question, though: what constitutionally-assured rights are to be protected by illegal immigration laws? That was a very interesting parting shot of yours, and I'm curious as to where it's coming from.

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I'll have to draft a good reply, which will probably take awhile. I only get one really good post a day...lol.

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WDRacing wrote:I'll have to draft a good reply, which will probably take awhile. I only get one really good post a day...lol.
Haha, fair enough. I'll look forward to it.

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I'm actually reading "The Drama of Democracy" by George McKenna. I found it in the closet yesterday, it's from my wife's BS she finished last year. I was gonna toss it in the yard sale pile but I read a few pages first. It's actually a pretty good read, I was totally surprised when I looked up and I had spent 45 minutes reading it...lol. Other then current events I am a fiction only guy for the most part when it comes to reading.

Informed opinion > opinion ;)

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I don't get much time to do pleasure reading, unfortunately. Law school eats that right up. I'll have to add that to the list of things I want to read post-graduation.

I've still got "Tears in the Darkness" sitting in my closet, waiting for me to pick it back up. It's a nonfiction examining all sides of the Bataan Death March.

And I'd add that Informed Opinion>Uninformed but Qualified as such Opinion>Opinion.

There's something to be said for stating, "This is what I think, but I could be wrong."

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IBCoupe wrote:The suit filed yesterday declares, in no uncertain terms, that only Congress has the power to determine the naturalization process, and to protect our borders. And that declaration is supported by 140 years of legal precedence. If you want the federal government to do something about it, vote. States don't get to take matters into their own hands when the Constitution explicitly states as much.
And nowhere does the AZ law try to determine the naturalization process nor overstep the Constitution.

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IBCoupe wrote:
I'm not entirely convinced that the founders would have a big problem with the way the Federal government is (or isn't) responding to the problems along the Mexican border. There are two entirely different forms of border security - national sovereignty, and individual movement. The people that come across our southern border are not, by and large, agents working for the Mexican government. They are individuals working for themselves.
But the founders did place the ball under the Legislative branch and for very good reason. They did so knowing that the Legislative branch would be the one to make the rule of law, which is also granted in the same article of the Constitution.

Article 1, Section 8.
To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.


The Legislative Branch then went on to create regulations determining that it is illegal to enter the US without due process. Due process covers everyone, not just enemies or armies that threaten the US Sovereignty but individuals as well. The reason it was placed under the Legislative Branch is because they are publicly elected officials. Publicly elected officials having the ability to make new law and amendments as time progresses and change. Current law declares that it is illegal for ANYONE to enter the US without due process. There is nothing left open to interpretation where this is concerned.
IBCoupe wrote:
The first illegal immigration law wasn't passed until the late 19th century, targeting Chinese laborers, nearly a century after the signing of the Constitution. There were hordes of non-citizens living and working in the United States, and the Constitution is eerily silent on the issue. Libertarians that many of the founding fathers were, one can't help but wonder if they'd say, "They want to come here and get none of the legal rights and privileges associated with citizenship, work horrible hours, be exploited by employers, and still, by a majority, pay taxes into the system? Sounds pretty foolish, but, hey, go ahead." Michelle Malkin will be quick to tell you that a few of the founding fathers each had a sentence or two about the need for cultural assimilation, as per her column on July 2d, but she didn't seem to come up with anything that suggested they saw having proper papers as being important.
Again, the Legislative Branch is in control of Naturalization because it has the ability to make law as time changes. Also, I'd have to see some type of proof that the majority of illegals pay taxes. If they did I'd have a lot less reason to see the current population deported and be for a larger grant of amnesty as long as the borders are secured and properly enforced as part of the same "bargain" struck in Congress. Still, the Legislative Branch has already made written law governing illegal entry into America. So we're bound by that law until it is amended.
IBCoupe wrote:
This country was founded with laissez-faire ideals when it came to individual freedoms. I don't think that border security is any exception. Throughout history (and pre-history), human beings have always traveled where they wanted to, through porous borders, settling where they felt best, and doing what they felt was best for them. This doesn't change just because we erect some fencing and pass some laws, and I'd be surprised if the founding fathers had any preconceptions to the contrary.
IMHO laissez-faire has far more to do with a citizens right to pursue profit without the intervention of the Gov be it State or Federal. Laissez-faire is about Capitalism for me, at least that's my understanding. If you mean it in terms of allowing people to do whatever without Gov interference, then I agree...sort of. They can do whatever as long as they don't break the law, which in this case we've already shown illegals to be, wait for it....illegal ;)
IBCoupe wrote: I have one question, though: what constitutionally-assured rights are to be protected by illegal immigration laws? That was a very interesting parting shot of yours, and I'm curious as to where it's coming from.
I said the State was trying to protect it's citizens Constitutional rights. This doesn't necessarily mean the law of Naturalization, although allowing illegals to go unchecked does violate my rights.

Article IV, Section 4
Republican Government
The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

4 cups of coffee later :mike

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WD is that 2 intelligible posts for you today? Yeehaw!!

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I can't believe you just said yeehaw ;)


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