Arizona’s Jan Brewer...racist?

[stebo0728]

Sorry the fact that I am from Georgia leaks out sometimes ROFL

[IBCoupe]

That was a good post, WD - and I'd probably devote more time to it if I weren't about to embark on a 7-hour journey: the enforcement of those laws, or the degree to which they ought to be pursued, is not something States have control over. While Aud is right - Arizona wasn't crafting new policy per se - it was crafting a new level of enforcement. That's not Arizona's job. That's still the job of the federal government. Arizona's statute said (maybe still does) that police must report their findings to ICE. That's a change in the way the law is currently pursued, and so it is an actual change in the law.

Illegal Immigrants and Taxes - this is a fairly neutral source that focuses on the issue of immigration. It focuses on the problems with immigrations, and the benefits.
Here's the source: http://www.cis.org/
And here's the report: http://www.cis.org/node/54

And I'm not quite understanding how Article IV, Section 4 applies.

[UpStar]

I heard about this while out of the country and I laughed out loud. Nice going Jan Brewer of Arizona! Knucklehead! Your state is being sued by the United States! Lets see how fast Arizona starts to back peddle. I'm actually in Phoenix AZ this weekend. I should take a trip to see Jan. Maybe I should invite her and her staff to Pro Ranch Market for lunch or, maybe she’d be more comfortable at that Cheese Cake Factory



http://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-sue ... 2010-07-06

[szh]

1. Jan Brewer is not being personally sued by the Federal government. How did you interpret things that way from whatever you have [mis]read?

2. The case has not been decided yet, has it? Judges still gotta look at it.

Way premature celebration, IMHO!

BTW, that link you posted also said: Polls show that most Americans support the Arizona law or one like it for their state.

Quite an important point! Yes, it may take other states time to get there ... Arizona is simply ahead.

And, yes, it is time the Federal government started listening to its citizens again ... how did Lincoln put it again? ... Oh, yes ... "A government of the people, by the people, for the people ..."

When the President, Congress and Senators (and other bureaucrats in office) forget that it is the people who elect them into office, then bad things can happen to freedom.

Z

[audtatious]

I heard about this while out of the country and I laughed out loud. Nice going Jan Brewer of Arizona! Knucklehead! Your state is being sued by the United States! Lets see how fast Arizona starts to back peddle. I'm actually in Phoenix AZ this weekend. I should take a trip to see Jan. Maybe I should invite her and her staff to Pro Ranch Market for lunch or, maybe she’d be more comfortable at that Cheese Cake Factory

You go march your a** right up there and watch Arizona back peddle because I highly doubt they will do anything but argue for their rights. Obummer simply took another swipe at states rights with this s*** suit that has NO bearing on the AZ law as it does NOT overstep Fed authority in the least. He better hope they get a liberal judge who cares as much about the Constitution as he does or it's going to get booted right out.

[WDRacing]

Didn't you see the sign?

Don't feed the trolls Matt

[audtatious]

I'd have better food for them but my dog passed away and there are no prezzies in the yard anymore.

[IBCoupe]

Arizona is simply ahead.

No! Bad!

Arizona may not be ahead. Once again, that people like a law does not necessarily make it a good law. Lots of people loved slavery - never had to pick your own cotton; fancy that.

For all your other points, carry on. That's the only one I felt strongly enough about to object to.

You go march your a** right up there and watch Arizona back peddle because I highly doubt they will do anything but argue for their rights. Obummer simply took another swipe at states rights with this bullsh*t suit that has NO bearing on the AZ law as it does NOT overstep Fed authority in the least. He better hope they get a liberal judge who cares as much about the Constitution as he does or it's going to get booted right out.

This has nothing to do with States rights. Arizona does not get to decide how U.S. citizenship works, and it does not get to decide how the border is secured.

And here's something to consider:

The Department’s brief said that S.B. 1070 will place significant burdens on federal agencies, diverting their resources away from high-priority targets, such as aliens implicated in terrorism, drug smuggling, and gang activity, and those with criminal records.

This is why the Federal Government gets to craft its own border and citizenship law - they've got very different priorities from Arizona, and they've got a whole country to worry about.

[audtatious]

No! Bad!

Arizona may not be ahead. Once again, that people like a law does not necessarily make it a good law. Lots of people loved slavery - never had to pick your own cotton; fancy that.

It's a f*** shame when people who break out laws have more rights in this country than those who are real citizens.

This has nothing to do with States rights. Arizona does not get to decide how U.S. citizenship works, and it does not get to decide how the border is secured.

Show me where the AZ law decides how U.S. citizenship works? Show me where the AZ law is overruling Fed jurisdiction.

And here's something to consider:

The Department’s brief said that S.B. 1070 will place significant burdens on federal agencies, diverting their resources away from high-priority targets, such as aliens implicated in terrorism, drug smuggling, and gang activity, and those with criminal records.

This is why the Federal Government gets to craft its own border and citizenship law - they've got very different priorities from Arizona, and they've got a whole country to worry about.

Wow, you mean the department that refuses to protect our sovereignty is making excuses on why AZ should not protect themselves due to Fed incompetence? Bull f*** s***. If the OsamaBama Administration, or the Bush Administration for that matter, gave a s*** about the citizens of this country they would enforce the laws. Instead, Obamallama is attacking AZ while leaving sanctuary cities, who directly spit in the eye of Fed law, are left alone.

They can all EAD

[IBCoupe]

It's a f**king shame when people who break out laws have more rights in this country than those who are real citizens.

What rights do our citizens lack that illegal immigrants have?

Show me where the AZ law decides how U.S. citizenship works? Show me where the AZ law is overruling Fed jurisdiction.

Where it decides how and when federal law should be enforced.

Wow, you mean the department that refuses to protect our sovereignty is making excuses on why AZ should not protect themselves due to Fed incompetence? Bull f**king s***. If the OsamaBama Administration, or the Bush Administration for that matter, gave a s*** about the citizens of this country they would enforce the laws. Instead, Obamallama is attacking AZ while leaving sanctuary cities, who directly spit in the eye of Fed law, are left alone.

They can all EAD

What's a sanctuary city? Where local powers don't enforce federal law? You appear to be completely ignorant of the governmental structure of the United States of America. Of course they don't care if sanctuary cities exist. The sanctuary cities can't stop the feds from doing what they want to do, if they want to do it. Arizona is forcing the Federal government's hand in a way that might not want to go right now. No individual state can be allowed to dictate the federal government's policy. Sanctuary cities don't do a thing to federal policy. Arizona's laws would, by constantly reporting illegal immigrants that the government couldn't care less about: those convicted of the horrible crime of speeding or driving with a burnt-out taillight. Hell, I'm pretty sure the Federal government doesn't really care about petty theft. That's something local authorities can take care of, without invoking citizenship issues.

Cry about it, dude, it's called federalism. It forms the basis of our country.

[audtatious]

You are absolutely right and are stating the exact reason AZ and others are putting in their own laws. THE FEDERAL GOV DOES NOT ENFORCE IMMIGRATION LAW.

Sanctuary cities actually put de jure / de facto practices in place to further protect illegals from the chance that the Feds will ever get off their asses and do their jobs. Fat chance of that happening with President stupid driving the fail train.

[AZhitman]

I heard about this while out of the country and I laughed out loud. Nice going Jan Brewer of Arizona! Knucklehead! Your state is being sued by the United States! Lets see how fast Arizona starts to back peddle. I'm actually in Phoenix AZ this weekend. I should take a trip to see Jan. Maybe I should invite her and her staff to Pro Ranch Market for lunch or, maybe she’d be more comfortable at that Cheese Cake Factory



http://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-sue ... 2010-07-06

See, Arizona has a nice friendly open border policy. We let the developmentally-disabled come to visit.

[IBCoupe]

You are absolutely right and are stating the exact reason AZ and others are putting in their own laws. THE FEDERAL GOV DOES NOT ENFORCE IMMIGRATION LAW.

Which they still don't have the authority to do. You're arguing a moot point. Stop it.

[AZhitman]

I'll copy and paste something I threw out to someone else who was railing on and on about AZ's "violating the Constitution"...

If you were such a staunch defender of the Constitution, you'd be bitching about the Fed's blatant disregard for their most basic role: Defending the people of this country. In ignoring their responsibility to process / deport legally-arrested detainees, they're openly flouting their disregard for that most sacred of documents.

[audtatious]

You are absolutely right and are stating the exact reason AZ and others are putting in their own laws. THE FEDERAL GOV DOES NOT ENFORCE IMMIGRATION LAW.

Which they still don't have the authority to do. You're arguing a moot point. Stop it.

Then stop bringing it up because AZ is NOT trying to replace Federal immigration law with their own.

I ask again, show me where in the bill they are violating the Constitution or where the law is challenging Fed law? Until then your replies are moot.

[AZhitman]

While Matt's lobbing grenades, let me throw this 'side discussion' out there:

Why's everything gotta be "racist"? It's bit annoying, and a lot ignorant.

Just for fun: Let's assume the law is unconstitutional.

Isn't it a bit of a stretch, then, to attribute the passage of that bill (and its support by a majority) to a belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others... ?

Why ignore the TRUE reason for the bill's passage? Ah, yes. Because THAT would require open and frank discussion of the issues... analysis of both sides' positions... a look into the gov'ts failure to enforce immigration law...

Yeah, it's MUCH easier just to scream "RACISM" like a mouthbreathing imbecile.

[audtatious]

Yep.

Today, call me a racist. I'll just shrug my shoulders and not give a damn. The word means little compared to what it once did.

[IBCoupe]

If you were such a staunch defender of the Constitution, you'd be bitching about the Fed's blatant disregard for their most basic role: Defending the people of this country. In ignoring their responsibility to process / deport legally-arrested detainees, they're openly flouting their disregard for that most sacred of documents.

There's something that a lot of people don't understand about the Constitution: it exists to set limits on Government powers. It doesn't grant rights. It doesn't, in large part, really even assign tasks or dictate how they're to be done. It identifies what parts of the government can do what tasks, and sets outer limits as to how much those parts of the government can do.

With that in mind, it shouldn't surprise you to hear a lack of outrage over the federal government's failure to fully enforce the law. It similarly shouldn't surprise you to hear outrage over the State of Arizona's insistence on exceeding its Constitutional authory. Government's failure to exercise its power is not nearly as offensive as Government's abuse of its power.

Then stop bringing it up because AZ is NOT trying to replace Federal immigration law with their own.

I ask again, show me where in the bill they are violating the Constitution or where the law is challenging Fed law? Until then your replies are moot.

Without devoting the necessary legal research to provide you with a proper answer there, I can only point to wikipedia:

The act... authorizes state and local law enforcement of federal immigration laws...

The act... obligates police to make an attempt, when practicable during a "lawful stop, detention or arrest made by a law enforcement official", to determine a person's immigration status if there is reasonable suspicion that the person is an illegal alien.

The law also prohibits state, county, or local officials from limiting or restricting "the enforcement of federal immigration laws to less than the full extent permitted by federal law" and provides that Arizona citizens can sue such agencies or officials to compel such full enforcement.

"[E]ncourag[ing] or induc[ing]" illegal immigration... will be considered a class 1 criminal misdemeanor if fewer than ten illegal immigrants are involved, and a class 6 felony if ten or more are involved.

All of those appear to supplant Federal discretion about the application of enforcement.

Why's everything gotta be "racist"? It's bit annoying, and a lot ignorant.

Greg, I really don't like to use the term "racist" when it's not necessary. Its use has become almost McCarthyist. The word "socialist" is beginning to be used in the same way, and labels like these don't really add anything to the discussion.

That said, I do have sympathy towards those who employ the label. When an objective look at the statistics involved (like those related to violent crime) reveals that illegal immigration doesn't really have that much of an effect on the system, one begins to wonder why someone might continue to blame illegal immigrants. That and the scapegoating of illegal immigrants neatly parallels every prior racist scapegoating campaign we've seen, be it the Ku Klux Klan or the National Socialist party.

And in the event that people are just plain misguided, one can't help but wonder why they persist in being so misguided when it's repeatedly explained why they're wrong, or why there are problems with what they want to do. But you know what's worse, Greg? The angry mob might even be right, but that doesn't make them appear any less angry, or any more moblike.

[audtatious]

Without devoting the necessary legal research to provide you with a proper answer there, I can only point to wakopedia:

The act... authorizes state and local law enforcement of federal immigration laws...

The act... obligates police to make an attempt, when practicable during a "lawful stop, detention or arrest made by a law enforcement official", to determine a person's immigration status if there is reasonable suspicion that the person is an illegal alien.

The law also prohibits state, county, or local officials from limiting or restricting "the enforcement of federal immigration laws to less than the full extent permitted by federal law" and provides that Arizona citizens can sue such agencies or officials to compel such full enforcement.

"[E]ncourag[ing] or induc[ing]" illegal immigration... will be considered a class 1 criminal misdemeanor if fewer than ten illegal immigrants are involved, and a class 6 felony if ten or more are involved.

All of those appear to supplant Federal discretion about the application of enforcement.

Ah, so the "legal" problem is with the Feds not wanting to feel forced to enforce the laws they are supposed to? That does not sound retarded to you? Why have the law in the first place if the Feds are not going to enforce it? Why not just open the borders and let everyone come and go as they please? Political suicide? The law is there so the politicians can point and say "hey, we have a law that covers that" but no intention of enforcement.

Wonderful.....

[stebo0728]

The problem, and it exists in many facets of our nation, is that we are allowing the federal government to handle things that should be handled on a more local level. The federal government cant possible be expected to handle things like this everywhere, its too large of a burden. Instead it must be handled more locally, with federal oversight.

[IBCoupe]

The Federal Government is the only part of our government that is permitted to handle this thing. That's the legal problem with Arizona's law. I'm tired of having to repeating myself.

Aud, the government is expected to use due discretion. If it feels that the problems that come from an unsecure border are not related to day-workers, they shouldn't be required to sacrifice resources to enforcement on that level. And once again, even if your complaint is that the Federal Government isn't enforcing the laws to the extent that it should, that does not rebut the charges of unconstitutionality regarding Arizona's law.

[stebo0728]

Dont repeat yourself on my behalf I understand how the system is SUPPOSED to work. My point is that is doesnt, and that needs to be addressed. Not just in the matter but in others as well. Everything should be handled at the least lowest level that it can be, and only when it becomes necessary to move up a level should that occur. Just my take on things.

[IBCoupe]

But, once again, there's a reason that we want the Federal government managing U.S. citizenship and our Federal borders: if we allow the several states to do it, we don't ever have a federal border or a United States citizen.

[stebo0728]

We can let the feds set the policy, no problem, but not allowing the states to aid in enforcement is ludicrous. The feds can even set the guidlines on how the states provide said assistance, and provide the oversight, but for goodness sakes when are we going to realize that the feds cant handle this on their own? Or is that they dont want to? Its one or the other, or both.

[IBCoupe]

If the Feds want to pass a law that says States can participate, that's one thing. It's another entirely when States start coming up with their own standards for those laws.

[stebo0728]

Well you may be right on the pragmatics of the issue, the point is, the people want something like this done, and they are just flat being ignored, even being vilified for it. As always, the normal logical majority is being driven by the abnormal illogical few.

[IBCoupe]

And I can sympathize with that frustration.

[AZhitman]

If it feels that the problems that come from an unsecure border are not related to day-workers, they shouldn't be required to sacrifice resources to enforcement on that level.

HOLY DAMN.

Are you freaking kidding me? Normally, your posts are brilliant. This one's a turd.

It is NOT up to the Feds to pre-assess or pre-judge the level of "problem" a certain class of detainee represents.

If a person is arrested in AZ, and is found to be illegally in-country, then it IS THE RESPONSIBILITY of the FEDS to come process and deport that person. PERIOD. It's a Constitutional mandate AND is outlined in Federal law. No, they do NOT have discretion at their disposal.
_____

Again, my point has been glossed over. If you gave a damn about the Constitution, you'd have condemned the current Administration for directing ICE to ignore our legitimately-detained illegals. That's their GODDAMN JOB.

The "unconstitutionality" of the AZ law is ASSUMED. You make it sound like it's a foregone conclusion - it ain't. A big function of my role when I worked for AZ's highest court for 6 years was to read, review, interpret, and critique proposed administrative code, rules, policies and statutes. Inquiring about one's citizenship is FAR from elbowing in on Federal turf.

[IBCoupe]

It is NOT up to the Feds to pre-assess or pre-judge the level of "problem" a certain class of detainee represents.

With due respect to your disagreement, Greg, yes it is. When the federal government is tasked with managing border and citizenship policy, how they assign resources is absolutely their determination.

When Arizona's cops are going to start reporting people who've done nothing but commit two relatively harmless crimes (remaining without papers & speeding, for example), I don't necessarily hold it against ICE for telling Arizona's cops to stop wasting their time.

[heliochrome85]

If it feels that the problems that come from an unsecure border are not related to day-workers, they shouldn't be required to sacrifice resources to enforcement on that level.

HOLY DAMN.

Are you freaking kidding me? Normally, your posts are brilliant. This one's a turd.

It is NOT up to the Feds to pre-assess or pre-judge the level of "problem" a certain class of detainee represents.

If a person is arrested in AZ, and is found to be illegally in-country, then it IS THE RESPONSIBILITY of the FEDS to come process and deport that person. PERIOD. It's a Constitutional mandate AND is outlined in Federal law. No, they do NOT have discretion at their disposal.
_____

Again, my point has been glossed over. If you gave a damn about the Constitution, you'd have condemned the current Administration for directing ICE to ignore our legitimately-detained illegals. That's their GODDAMN JOB.

The "unconstitutionality" of the AZ law is ASSUMED. You make it sound like it's a foregone conclusion - it ain't. A big function of my role when I worked for AZ's highest court for 6 years was to read, review, interpret, and critique proposed administrative code, rules, policies and statutes. Inquiring about one's citizenship is FAR from elbowing in on Federal turf.

you are right, inquiring about one's citizenship isnt the issue as many many other states have had this policy in place. as IBC has tried multiple times to explain, it is SOLELY the job of the federal government to enforce Immigration and Border security. That in your opinion it hasnt done its job does not give Arizona the Constitutional power to circumvent Federal immigration law and create its own law which has the very significant risk of becoming racially motivated. To discount the very real possibility of racially motivated profiling here is just plain ignorant. Did the modifications passed on SB1070 fix this gaping hole in the original bill? No, because ultimately, the anti-discrimination training was optional to law enforcement.

I am so sick of hearing that those who support the conservative side of the political spectrum and its policies are justified because they "Love the Constitution." The flip side is that those who lean left, clearly are doing their best to dismantle and disregard it. Replace the word Constitution with Freedom/Troops, and its 2001 all over again. I dont know about you, but being someone with a dual passport, funny sounding name, and a tan complexion, I cant say that this place is all that welcome to me even though its the country of my birth.

I dont know what has changed in you recently, but your ad hominem attacks, and general fury have stepped up since I was last active on here. That SZH no longer posts, Smock, CZ, and Hash are also signs that maybe this place has become slightly toxic. Hell, even howie who at best had 1.5 brain cells and who reemerged every so often to amuse us with his crazy, has moved on. Friend, take it easy