anyone else heard about this?

[1992hatch]

You might want to send this to all your hunting buddies family & friends.

Nobody can sell any ammunition after June 30, 2009

It has already started....

Ammunition Accountability Legislation

Remember how Obama said that he wasn't going to take your guns? Well, it seems that his allies in the anti-gun world have no problem with taking your ammo!

The bill 20 that is being pushed in 18 states (including Illinois and Indiana ) requires all ammunition to be encoded by the manufacture a data base of all ammunition sales. So they will know how much you buy and what calibers.

Nobody can sell any ammunition after June 30, 2009 unless the ammunition is coded.

Any privately held uncoded ammunition must be destroyed by July 1, 2011. (Including hand loaded ammo.)

They will also charge a .05 cent tax on every round so every box of ammo you buy will go up at least $2.50 or more!

If they can deprive you of ammo they do not need to take your gun!

This legislation is currently pending in 18 states: Alabama , Arizona , California , Connecticut , Hawaii , Illinois , Indiana , Kentucky , Maryland , Mississippi , Missouri , New Jersey , New York , Pennsylvania , Rhode Island , South Carolina , Tennessee , and Washington .

Send to your friends in these states AND fight to dissolve this BILL!!

To find more about the anti-gun group that is sponsoring this legislation and the specific legislation for each state, go to:

http://ammunitionaccountabilit...n.htm

[480sx]

The sad thing, is this is all being done with the hopes that its going to curb gun violence. In reality its going to create another whole criminal underworld of ammunition suppliers, as violent as any hard dealer or arms dealer. In the end, its going to create more violence and crime that it could ever possibly prevent.

Think anyone is going to be stupid to carry around a gun if their the type who might use it in a crime with fvking IDd shells? No. They are going to buy unmarked ammunition from an arms dealer that the American government is giving a job to.

Idiots at the helm.

[1unar3clipse]

Part lethal projectile Part data mining tool

All to create jobs for the WRONG market.

[dusred]

Damn. I've got 4 guns under my desk right now.

I'm going RIGHT NOW to stock up on ammo.

[S133P3R]

GOD OF WAR, its becoming a reality here....

[Urabus GodofTraction]

People sometimes do criminal things when they drink alcohol.

We must ban alcohol, for surely that will not lead to a new level of criminal behavior!

[Cold_Zero]

The problems with these initiatives is that States or the Federal Government is mandated to create a database to track X, Y and Z and no money is allocated to create the database let alone maintain the database or to staff the database with data entry people. A lot of times too, you have situations were you have redundancies of multiple databases tracking the same information, privacy issues (security breeches of the database) or no formal way to interface, trend or disseminate information from the database. And with the case of State mandated databases, during economic tough times a lot of times state's cut back on the budgets to operates these databases and you loose your tracking mechanism.

The other thing that legislators fail to mention is that ammunition is already taxed. So why increase the tax on ammunition in the first place? Oh that is right! To demonize a lawful and responsible certain demographic group of society that participates in an activities that has been demonized for the past 20 years. I wonder how many criminals will actually pay the tax and go through the paper work when obtaining their bullets? Probably none.

We have a similar measure here in Indiana relating to cold medicine. We have a Meth problem here in the Midwest and people who cook meth use Pseudoephedrine in the process. So in order to 'fight crime' and 'cut down' on meth production our state legislature passed a law limiting the amount of products that you can buy that contain pseudoephedrine, require you to fill out paper work and require you to produce State/Federal ID. This is a major pain in the a** for my mother who has bad sinuses and takes Sudafed all the time. You are limited to buy only 24 tablets of any Pseudoephedrine produce in one week. So what happens? Well my cousin's husband is a Pharmacist and he tells me that people who cook meth typically end up stealing the product to get around the purchase limit. So now Kroger or Target experience shrinkage (loss in profits and having to raise the price on the product to make up the loss) because some legislator writes a dumbass law like this. It will be no different with these styles of ammo legislation.

[breadbox]

When will the government learn banning something makes the problem needlessly illegal and in turn creates a new criminal element?

This law should be first enacted on the government and its agencies, to test the tracking.

When will the rest of the population realize that the government isn't there to solve our problems, it is there to to provide a structure in which to operate.

[Jacko3]

You might want to send this to all your hunting buddies family & friends.

Nobody can sell any ammunition after June 30, 2009

It has already started....

Ammunition Accountability Legislation

Remember how Obama said that he wasn't going to take your guns? Well, it seems that his allies in the anti-gun world have no problem with taking your ammo!

The bill 20 that is being pushed in 18 states (including Illinois and Indiana ) requires all ammunition to be encoded by the manufacture a data base of all ammunition sales. So they will know how much you buy and what calibers.

Nobody can sell any ammunition after June 30, 2009 unless the ammunition is coded.

Any privately held uncoded ammunition must be destroyed by July 1, 2011. (Including hand loaded ammo.)

They will also charge a .05 cent tax on every round so every box of ammo you buy will go up at least $2.50 or more!

If they can deprive you of ammo they do not need to take your gun!

This legislation is currently pending in 18 states: Alabama , Arizona , California , Connecticut , Hawaii , Illinois , Indiana , Kentucky , Maryland , Mississippi , Missouri , New Jersey , New York , Pennsylvania , Rhode Island , South Carolina , Tennessee , and Washington .

Send to your friends in these states AND fight to dissolve this BILL!!

To find more about the anti-gun group that is sponsoring this legislation and the specific legislation for each state, go to:

http://ammunitionaccountabilit...n.htm

This is an awesome and fantastic idea for Law Enforcement. This way, we can trace criminals pretty easily. Well done, Obama. If you have a gun, keep it safe--its that simple.

[HashiriyaS14]

Alabama ,Kentucky , Mississippi , South Carolina , Tennessee

Yeeeeeaaaaaaahhhhhhhh

Somehow I don't see this passing in the above states? Just a hunch.

Anyway, I almost don't see it passing anywhere. It seems like a gross infringement on the 2nd Amendment, unlike, say, a simple registration class.

This would actually keep people from arming themselves by arbitrarily requiring something that may not necessarily exist yet, and that seems like it would be blatantly unconstitutional to just about anyone outside the most ardent anti-gun lobby groups.

It could surprise me, but I don't really expect anything to come of this in the IMMEDIATE future. Of course, ID'd ammo probably will be a reality eventually, but I think it's only politically feasible without the tax and when it's really available on the market.

And I have no idea how they'd stop people from hand-loading... That seems like it'd be impossible to enforce.

[Jacko3]

The problems with these initiatives is that States or the Federal Government is mandated to create a database to track X, Y and Z and no money is allocated to create the database let alone maintain the database or to staff the database with data entry people. A lot of times too, you have situations were you have redundancies of multiple databases tracking the same information, privacy issues (security breeches of the database) or no formal way to interface, trend or disseminate information from the database. And with the case of State mandated databases, during economic tough times a lot of times state's cut back on the budgets to operates these databases and you loose your tracking mechanism.

The other thing that legislators fail to mention is that ammunition is already taxed. So why increase the tax on ammunition in the first place? Oh that is right! To demonize a lawful and responsible certain demographic group of society that participates in an activities that has been demonized for the past 20 years. I wonder how many criminals will actually pay the tax and go through the paper work when obtaining their bullets? Probably none.

We have a similar measure here in Indiana relating to cold medicine. We have a Meth problem here in the Midwest and people who cook meth use Pseudoephedrine in the process. So in order to 'fight crime' and 'cut down' on meth production our state legislature passed a law limiting the amount of products that you can buy that contain pseudoephedrine, require you to fill out paper work and require you to produce State/Federal ID. This is a major pain in the a** for my mother who has bad sinuses and takes Sudafed all the time. You are limited to buy only 24 tablets of any Pseudoephedrine produce in one week. So what happens? Well my cousin's husband is a Pharmacist and he tells me that people who cook meth typically end up stealing the product to get around the purchase limit. So now Kroger or Target experience shrinkage (loss in profits and having to raise the price on the product to make up the loss) because some legislator writes a dumbass law like this. It will be no different with these styles of ammo legislation.

When govt demands that municapilities and states perform a certain function, without compesnation for that function, we call that an unfunded mandate. It happens all the time.

Taxing products that most humans can ordinarily do without, is considered sin tax. And I beleive ammo falls under that category---many have never owned a gun, yet, they have lived productive lives. I have no idea what value a gun, that isn't used routinely for hunting or sports, is to the owner, even if our constitution guarantees it.

And as for cole medecins, no one can steal enoug of it to cook a reasonable amount of meth. At some point, they have to buy some of it. The buying process is done differently--scouts are sent out to buy cold medecines in drug stores in a specific zip code. Its like a coordinated operation.

[carmo]

This is an awesome and fantastic idea for Law Enforcement. This way, we can trace criminals pretty easily. Well done, Obama. If you have a gun, keep it safe--its that simple.

Trace criminals!?!? It's not the criminals that are going to be buying the ID'd ammo. All this does is make ammo more expensive for the law abiding citizens that purchase guns and ammo legally. The criminals are going to buy ammo that isn't traceable. I seriously doubt bank robbers wait the five day backround check and then go get their gun registered and on top of all that go buy some ID'd ammo and then follow through with the heist.

[telcoman]

This is an awesome and fantastic idea for Law Enforcement. This way, we can trace criminals pretty easily. Well done, Obama. If you have a gun, keep it safe--its that simple.

+1



Its about time!

Tax the ammo state and federal,Tax the guns, state and federalMandatory gun training classes both with state and federal feesMandatory mental and health examinations state and federalMandatory licensing, state and federalTax stamps state and federal.

Any violations carry mandatory jail timewith $10k fines & loss of drivers license

Telcoman

[dusred]

This is an awesome and fantastic idea for Law Enforcement. This way, we can trace criminals pretty easily. Well done, Obama. If you have a gun, keep it safe--its that simple.

No.

This is just one step closer to taking our guns away and if you don't see that as the ultimate goal you're just . . . well. . . not very smart.

"Once guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns." ~some famous person that I don't remember right now

[480sx]

This is an awesome and fantastic idea for Law Enforcement. This way, we can trace criminals pretty easily. Well done, Obama.

Very naive, unless you were being sarcastic but it doesnt appear that way. Read the posts in the thread, then respond.

EDIT - Teleco - FFS dude.

Quote »A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.[/quote]We'v already been through this in another thread, a FEW other threads. Most of the stuff on your list is infringing upon the right to keep and carry. Lets not turn this thread into another all out gun control debate, we have enough of those flying around.

Guns are accessible to anyone with money. Its as simple as that. More government is NOT the answer to this problem.

I too have a hard time seeing this passing, but you never really know. It may make sense to some.

[Cold_Zero]

Yeeeeeaaaaaaahhhhhhhh

Somehow I don't see this passing in the above states? Just a hunch.

Hash,You dare leave out Indiana? tsk tsk.. j/k I am with you, I dont see it passing in any state except for California or New York. With Indiana being in the same NRA-ILA district as Illinios, we always hear about these measures that get tacked to legislation in an attempt to slip it through. Every time bullet taxes, registration and finger printing comes up it is always defeated.

[Cold_Zero]

+1



Its about time!

Tax the ammo state and federal,Tax the guns, state and federalMandatory gun training classes both with state and federal feesMandatory mental and health examinations state and federalMandatory licensing, state and federalTax stamps state and federal.

Any violations carry mandatory jail timewith $10k fines & loss of drivers license

Telcoman

Howie,Seeing that almost all criminal enterprises DON"T PAY TAXES, I am not sure what you would hope accomplish with taxing the s*** out of this activity. Or if the government is so hard up for money, they can tax the s*** out of union worker's paychecks and pensions. We can just arbitrarily just pick a group like union workers and make their life harder because they choose to unionize and arbitrate as a group for better work conditions, better pay and retirement benefits. But in the end they end up running our Corporations and Employers companies into the ground. No my friend, I wouldn’t allow them to pick on you, because you chose to partake in your right. I would support and defend you to the end my friend.Bud

[1unar3clipse]

This is an awesome and fantastic idea for Law Enforcement. This way, we can trace criminals pretty easily. Well done, Obama. If you have a gun, keep it safe--its that simple.

No no no.. if you have ammo keep it safe.

because this would open up a whole can of bulls*** for stolen ammunition.

[Cold_Zero]

How will criminals get around these regulations? Simple the same way they do today. When you legally purchase a firearm today you typically have to go through paper work, provide a government ID card and submit to a background check. When a criminal wants a firearm that is not traced back to them, they steal it or buy one from a shady dealer. So what does the gun grabbing Anti Gun Lobby suggests? An ammunition registration process and finger printing of ammunition. Great! That solves the problem. Until houses are broken into, stores are broken into and shady dealers sell criminals ammunition at a marked up price.

I find the ideas that the Anti Gun Lobby come up with very disingenuous, because their ideas are not rooted in trying to prevent crime, but to perpetuate more anti gun laws. See to them, the problem is not criminals that perpetrate crime with firearms. No, the problem is lawful gun owners that responsibly own, operate and carry firearms. If the problem were criminals using firearms to commit crimes we would actually do something to try and stop criminals from breaking the law, like building more jails, putting more cops on the beat, increasing the capacity of our judicial system and passing truth in sentencing laws. No, we don't want to do any of that, we want to concentrate our efforts to make it harder for I honestly think their rationale comes from one of two lines of thinking. If they make it so difficult and demonize firearm ownership, that guns will just 'go away.' This is very naive. Either that or (and some cops fall into this rationale) these people want only criminals and law enforcement to have firearms. That way it is easy to distinguish between law enforcement officers and criminals, since law enforcement officers are the only ones that wear uniforms.

[Jacko3]

+1



Its about time!

Tax the ammo state and federal,Tax the guns, state and federalMandatory gun training classes both with state and federal feesMandatory mental and health examinations state and federalMandatory licensing, state and federalTax stamps state and federal.

Any violations carry mandatory jail timewith $10k fines & loss of drivers license

Telcoman

Telcoman, well said!

[480sx]

Jacko, you were on the respect train but you have since derailed strait to failsville in this thread. I sincerely hope you can get yourself back on track.

If you want to engage in political discussions, you must address the arguments of people with opposing view points, or your just circle jerking with what may be the nut job sitting next to you.

[Jacko3]

Jacko, you were on the respect train but you have since derailed strait to failsville in this thread. I sincerely hope you can get yourself back on track.

If you want to engage in political discussions, you must address the arguments of people with opposing view points, or your just circle jerking with what may be the nut job sitting next to you.

Whose train? Where is failsville? Please show me! What track? What argument? What opposing views? I am completely befuddled here!

[Jacko3]

Hash,You dare leave out Indiana? tsk tsk.. j/k I am with you, I dont see it passing in any state except for California or New York. With Indiana being in the same NRA-ILA district as Illinios, we always hear about these measures that get tacked to legislation in an attempt to slip it through. Every time bullet taxes, registration and finger printing comes up it is always defeated.

I agree!

[telcoman]

Howie,Seeing that almost all criminal enterprises DON"T PAY TAXES, I am not sure what you would hope accomplish with taxing the s*** out of this activity. Or if the government is so hard up for money, they can tax the s*** out of union worker's paychecks and pensions. We can just arbitrarily just pick a group like union workers and make their life harder because they choose to unionize and arbitrate as a group for better work conditions, better pay and retirement benefits. But in the end they end up running our Corporations and Employers companies into the ground. No my friend, I wouldn’t allow them to pick on you, because you chose to partake in your right. I would support and defend you to the end my friend.Bud

Hey Bud

Hope all is well with you.

I just thought it has been a long time since I sturred the gun pot.

The second amendment made sense at the time of our founding fathers. It no longer makes sense allowing guns in crowded metropolitan areas or allowing guns to be carried in motor vehicles.

However the gun lobby refuses to acknowledge the problems many cities face today so perhaps then the only answer is to make it very difficult for everyone to own a gun. Tax the hell out of em along with liquor, beer, cigarettes, gamb|ing, and prostitution. Did I leave anything out?

Taxing union workers! I'd have a problem with that! Why would you want to tax honest hard working middle class Democratic Obama voting Americans?

I don't have a problem with responsible gun ownership in rural areas but there are way too many illegal gun incidents that make the news every day.

Telcoman

[audtatious]

Please show me proof where outlawing guns in metropolitan areas will lower violent crime.

[Urabus GodofTraction]

Please show me proof where outlawing guns in metropolitan areas will lower violent crime.

LOL London!LOL Washington D.C!

Everyone take a moment to note that guns an ammo are ALREADY taxed extra.

Yeeeeeaaaaaaahhhhhhhh

Somehow I don't see this passing in the above states? Just a hunch.

First, they came for California.But I am not California, so I said nothing.Then, they came for New York.But I am not New York, so I said nothing.Then they came for me.And noone was around to hear my protest.

[1unar3clipse]

First, they came for California.But I am not California, so I said nothing.Then, they came for New York.But I am not New York, so I said nothing.Then they came for me.And noone was around to hear my protest.

Perfectly placed.

[Cold_Zero]

Hey Bud

Hope all is well with you.

Things go, but we have had really no movement in contract negotiations in regards to my wife's raise and they just announced that her corporation was going to take 5 days from their pay and pay them 9 days in a two week pay period for 5 weeks. I am convinced that this breaks Indiana law, but have to wait for the union to consult their lawyers.. Its been a mess with them working without a contract for over 2 years.

[480sx]

Another gun control debate thread?

Situation A - Any drug dealer sells pot by the gram and starts to pick up zips. Sells 8ths and grams till he hits a grand. Starts moving OZ's and hits a few grand. Buys a gun(because they are NOT hard to find once you are in ANY crimial underworld) and starts slinging anything he can get his hands on. Crack head gets shot, dude goes to jail, MORE GOVERNMENT GUN CONTROL NEEDED! Oh wait, it would do absolutely nothing in this case.

Situation B - Street thug kid joins a gang. Guns arnt very hard to come by in any hard core gang. Stolen, scratched serial number, imported guns from everywhere(hypothetical situation where guns are much harder to get)ect. Shoots and kills a rival 16 year old gang banger and he dies. MORE GUN CONTROL NEEDED! Oh wait, again, it would have done nothing to prevent this death.

What this actually does, interestingly enough, is give the government less control over the guns. Now, most every serial number is registered to a buyer, and can be traced back to that buyer. From there, the trail of ownership can be followed and it can potentially lead to a murderer. You take that away? More unsolved gun murders.

----------------------

How about instead of a lame a** gun control thread, we take this into a prohibition in general thread. We already have several very developed gun control threads, we dont need another one.

Prohibition of just about everything fails, because they are laws that are meant to be broken. Crackheads are still gona get crack. Gangbangers/murders are still gona get guns. The list goes on. What we have with prohibition is a government sponsored criminal underworld. Wherever there is money, there will be people to make it.

If you take away the drugs and the guns from the criminal underworld, what happens to the criminal underworld? If you legalize prostitution, what happens to the street hooker, the john and pimp?

So, considering that what i just wrote takes up at least ~70 percent of our justice system, imagine how much extra resources would be freed up to fight crimes like. MURDER. RAPE. PEDOPHILIA. KIDNAPPING. FRAUD.

This s*** is so elementary, i get angry just talking about it.

In 2003, 50 percent of our judicial system was tied up with non violent drug offenders. This means, that 50 percent of our jails were non violent drug offenders. 50 percent of our court system was being used to try, convict, ect non violent drug offenders.

Imagine the murder rate decrease if we eliminated the staple of the criminal underworld(guns, drugs). Sorry bangers! No more money in it for you, better find something else to do!

[dusred]

Please show me proof where outlawing guns in metropolitan areas will lower violent crime.

Think if everyone had a gun and knew how to use it how much more respect everyone would have for their neighbor? Knowing at any moment that they could get their head blown off is a real incentive to respect others and their property.