another swap idea... TPI

[drewhenderson13]

what do you all think about a 502 in a 240? haha im jk

seriously, how about a TPI chevy in a s13?

ive always liked the TPIs and i know they can be made to perform well on the cheap.

i was thinking... TPI was in late 80s fbodys... late 80s 240sx... put a TPI in a 240.

has anyone even done it before? i know most people think the TPI is a piece of s***, but i know otherwise.

so what do you all think?

[OutToWinPAHC]

Just a matter of choice. Its harder to make those front sump to fit in. And the distributor make the motor sit more forward for placement. They can be nice when you build them up. But right off the pallet a LT or LS will perform better.

I was going to use my small block 400 turned FI in the car I have now but the LS was a better choice for me.

Them - how big is thatMe - 6.6 liters

[drewhenderson13]

has anyone put any non LS sbc in a 240?

[OutToWinPAHC]

A few guys have

[drewhenderson13]

the tpi should fit the ecact same as an lt1, except for the distributor.

i dont think the engine would sit far enough back for the firewall to get in the way. and if it does, id just cut it or beat it with a hammer.

do they make oil pans for a sbc swap? or do you have to cut the cross member?

[cnichols]

the tpi should fit the ecact same as an lt1, except for the distributor.

i dont think the engine would sit far enough back for the firewall to get in the way. and if it does, id just cut it or beat it with a hammer.

do they make oil pans for a sbc swap? or do you have to cut the cross member?

If there is one motor that has a boatload of aftermarket pans out there, it's the small block chevy. Time for google. Also, Canton will make you a custom pan to fit whatever dimensions you want.

[ccptravis]

interested in getting that answer, i've been lookin and searching for an oil pan for an L98 and i've come up with nothin. keep us posted. i'm ready to do a build

[Fla240sx]

LT-1's mount differently then SBC's... one mount is offset... I forget which

the tpi should fit the ecact same as an lt1, except for the distributor.

i dont think the engine would sit far enough back for the firewall to get in the way. and if it does, id just cut it or beat it with a hammer.

do they make oil pans for a sbc swap? or do you have to cut the cross member?

[Z28ricer]

LT-1's mount differently then SBC's... one mount is offset... I forget which

Sure the 4th gen F body mounts themselves are in a different position, but the block itself has the Gen 1 mounting locations on it also.

Knowing otherwise on a TPI's performance and believing it will run great without a lot of $ sounds like a good way to waste a bunch of $ and still go slow.

[Z28ricer]

As far as an oil pan goes, a typical stock sized oil pan will clear the rack, if you are really after some more clearance in that area an aftermarket chevy II pan has a C notch there for rear steering linkage used on those cars.

[drewhenderson13]

Knowing otherwise on a TPI's performance and believing it will run great without a lot of $ sounds like a good way to waste a bunch of $ and still go slow.

actually the only thing that really needs work on a TPI are the heads (compared to any other stock sbc). gm high tech shows articles on TPIs all the time, they are some of the cheapest engines to make fast.

good try though

[Z28ricer]

Good try though ? Look you've got squat for info, your own guess based on one thing you read, how about you back up your talk and prove the thousands of TPI owners out there wrong, lets see you run something reasonably fast with a factory "TPI" (85-92) engine and "only" work on the heads.

actually the only thing that really needs work on a TPI are the heads (compared to any other stock sbc). gm high tech shows articles on TPIs all the time, they are some of the cheapest engines to make fast.

good try though

[drewhenderson13]

Good try though ? Look you've got squat for info, your own guess based on one thing you read, how about you back up your talk and prove the thousands of TPI owners out there wrong, lets see you run something reasonably fast with a factory "TPI" (85-92) engine and "only" work on the heads.

how about this...

stock is junk on everything.

a powerful engine will have aftermarket heads and cam anyway correct?

and any engine with age will have aftermarket rotating assembly if your building an engine worth a sh*t.

tpis dont have junk reverse coolant flow and optispark garbage. tpis are just fuel injected gen I sbcs... the cheapest engines to make fast in the world.

and yes the heads are the only true limiting factor on a tpi... aftermarket heads on a stock everything else will make them faster than a stock sbc of equal displacement.

so wheres your proof? your just using ragged out stock tpis with 10billion miles owned by rednecks as examples.

i didnt base it on one thing i read... i based it on a lot i read, from several places. i was looking to buy a tpi camaro a while back.

so yes... good try

[Z28ricer]

Apparently you still havent done enough research, if you think the heads are the "only" restriction on the stock tpi motor you are out of your mind, please bother to do at least a little bit of worthwhile research on modifying a TPI engine before you spout about making something "fast" and "cheap" with a TPI, especially a 240sx.

1. The "TPI" intake is tuned to produce torque down low, the intake runner length is simply too long for power up top, thus why they fall flat around 4500-5000 rpm.

2. Upgrading the "tpi" with replacement aftermarket parts will let you make "some" more power, but again your still stuck with a low-midrange powerband, and at this point you've spent $1000 (using new parts prices i dont care what you can get from your mothers brothers uncle)and you havent gained a whole lot.

3. Yup now the heads and cam are a restriction, so now you've spent $1000 upgrading the intake setup to something that will flow a bit more, but really wont support any serious horsepower, and now you can spend $500-1500 for some heads that will flow enough for some good power.

4. Now your onto the tuning for the ecu, either you've got the known to be worthless at making big power maf setup, or youve got a 90-92 sd setup, spend a bunch in tuning software and hardware, only to still end up with what would essentially be a good tow truck engine.

So good luck, hell i'll bet you the title to my car if you can put a TPI engine in a 240sx and beat my car with a similar priced setup using reasonable prices, no freebies or bs, let me know when your ready to race....

[Z28ricer]

To add, yes the TPI setup might pull a considerably heavier, and lower numerically geared f body decent, but putting it in a 240sx you're just going to spin tires and waste money.

[drewhenderson13]

wow... thanks for telling me how to modify ANY engine!

and get your facts straight. long intake runners are better for top end power. you need to get some more schooling before you try to debate with me.

they fall flat on their face when their stock and dont have a cam with a high duration and valve springs that will close the valves fast enough at high rpms.

of course it costs money to modify an engine... parts arent free, but they are cheaper on gen 1 sbcs.

what do you do? take a stock engine out and go race?

im talking about the cost to modify to make a real engine

and yes its cheaper in a tpi

and what are you talking about a tpi being faster in a fbody? 240s are lighter cars, it will be faster. if you cant set suspension up or drive itl blow the tires off. but that means you dont know what your doing. not the engine is weak.

what are you talking about? tpis are too powerful for a 240?

[Z28ricer]

Its obvious, i'm dealing with a moron, just let me know when you've got your high lift huge duration cam in a "TPI" engine, bring your title....

wow... thanks for telling me how to modify ANY engine!

and get your facts straight. long intake runners are better for top end power. you need to get some more schooling before you try to debate with me.

they fall flat on their face when their stock and dont have a cam with a high duration and valve springs that will close the valves fast enough at high rpms.

of course it costs money to modify an engine... parts arent free, but they are cheaper on gen 1 sbcs.

what do you do? take a stock engine out and go race?

im talking about the cost to modify to make a real engine

and yes its cheaper in a tpi

and what are you talking about a tpi being faster in a fbody? 240s are lighter cars, it will be faster. if you cant set suspension up or drive itl blow the tires off. but that means you dont know what your doing. not the engine is weak.

what are you talking about? tpis are too powerful for a 240?

[drewhenderson13]

do you even know how an engine works?

you make it sound like a cam with a higher lift and duration wont fit in a tpi?

do you know what lift and duration are?

i ask these questions because you are obviously inept when it comes to car knowledge

duration is what effects the powerband of the engine. stock motors use relativly low duratin to give them bottom end power

and for the record tpis have short runners stock. people that modify them for drag racine put longer runners on them.

so be careful throwing that word "moron" around... especially when you dont know what your talking about.

i wouldnt waste my time racing a clown like you.

[Z28ricer]

Have you even SEEN a tpi engine ??? The runner length from the tube flange at the plenum to the intake port at the head is 21 or 22 inches, for comparison a LT1 is about 3" and the LS1 is around 8"..... Like I said when you got one ready in a 240sx i'll be happy to run you for titles.

Back on the subject and not dealing with drews ignorance ...

I'd like to take this moment to eat my words about the oil pan clearing the rack, i saw a car locally someone was selling with a carb'd sbc and they had it clearing, but it must have had a relocated crossmember or im not sure what, they did the mounts by welding another crossmember to the frame rails above the 240sx crossmember. I've got my LT1/T56 sitting in the engine bay and the oil pan had to come off, im going to get some rest and in the morning i'll figure that out along with the other nightmare that headers seem to be....

do you even know how an engine works?

you make it sound like a cam with a higher lift and duration wont fit in a tpi?

do you know what lift and duration are?

i ask these questions because you are obviously inept when it comes to car knowledge

duration is what effects the powerband of the engine. stock motors use relativly low duratin to give them bottom end power

and for the record tpis have short runners stock. people that modify them for drag racine put longer runners on them.

so be careful throwing that word "moron" around... especially when you dont know what your talking about.

i wouldnt waste my time racing a clown like you.

[ccptravis]

Wow thats about all i can say bout this thread. first of all its not called a TPI. TPI is TUNED PORT INJECTION which fuel/air delivery method. Its actually an L98, thats the type of small block it is. second of you can make gobs of power with this motor, trust me i've done it already. My only question is did anyone come up with an answer with the question of the whole oil pan issue? Does anyone have anypics? Has anyone done this swap? WTF. I still dont understand why we all are argueing bout makin a small block fast. I just want some more info on installing this set up. the search button seems to be useless on this topic. One last thing, with rotating assemblies for under 1,200 bucks for stroker kits, an ungodly amount of cam companies, alluminum head companies, spring and valve companies, why would anyone try to argue that you cant make any small block chevy fast, for nay sayers i say open a super chevy magazine, or better go to the track, or if N/A isnt your thing supercharge it. Sorry for rambling, PLease help me with my questions at hand. Thanks in advance

[Z28ricer]

I guess we can put another one down for not knowing what a 85-92 tpi is capable of, yeah no crap tpi stands for tuned port injection, "tpi" is just what the 85-92 f body and vette engines have gone by cause nobody is gonna stand around and say "yeah its a tuned port injection sbc" and good you've got a selection of cams, heads etc, but its still not going to do much good with an 80's intake design that just doesnt flow, end of story.

As i posted in my last post, the oil pan wont clear for squat, I just got up today and i'll be doing some measuring, trying to get the engine to go back another 1.5-2" and then see if the milodon nova II pan might work since its got a notched sump for their rear steering linkage....

Wow thats about all i can say bout this thread. first of all its not called a TPI. TPI is TUNED PORT INJECTION which fuel/air delivery method. Its actually an L98, thats the type of small block it is. second of you can make gobs of power with this motor, trust me i've done it already. My only question is did anyone come up with an answer with the question of the whole oil pan issue? Does anyone have anypics? Has anyone done this swap? WTF. I still dont understand why we all are argueing bout makin a small block fast. I just want some more info on installing this set up. the search button seems to be useless on this topic. One last thing, with rotating assemblies for under 1,200 bucks for stroker kits, an ungodly amount of cam companies, alluminum head companies, spring and valve companies, why would anyone try to argue that you cant make any small block chevy fast, for nay sayers i say open a super chevy magazine, or better go to the track, or if N/A isnt your thing supercharge it. Sorry for rambling, PLease help me with my questions at hand. Thanks in advance

[ccptravis]

great idea bout the novaII. post pics if you get a sollution to this issue. thanks. my arguement wasn't bout the TPI its just that they made 305's TPI also in 87 they first put the L98 350 back in the camaro IROC-Z. i believe it only came with 245HP. As far as running 80's technology, to that i say "to each his own" lets agree to dissagree. The end result is the same. V8 + 240= pantydroppin fun. I just hope i dont twist my vert into a pretzel with the TQ.

[Z28ricer]

I dont think im gonna even bother trying to fab a pan to fit, i dont know if the one or two other gen1/2 swaps spaced the crossmember down, or if a skyline crossmember might help, the rack is really too high, the windage tray is pretty much sitting on the rack, and the windage tray isnt too far from the crankshaft. If i still had a shop at my disposal with a lift this might be a bit more feasable but i just dont see a proper oil pan that wont cause starvation issues when braking and I refuse to go screwing things up suspension wise by spacing the crossmember down. I'll just wait till later and put a LSx in it.

The tpi making 250-300 HP is one thing, but when you are actually trying to make 400-500 HP and at least turn somewhere over 5500 rpm its a seriously flawed design, the actual "tuning" is designed for a very narrow powerband and thus it doesnt work well outside what it is designed for, not to mention just to get to the same power level as an LT1 you pretty well need to replace the entire intake system short of the plenum and fuel rail, doesnt make for a very cost friendly build if you expect anything other than making supposed claims on the internet...

[drewhenderson13]

Wow thats about all i can say bout this thread. first of all its not called a TPI. TPI is TUNED PORT INJECTION which fuel/air delivery method. Its actually an L98, thats the type of small block it is. second of you can make gobs of power with this motor, trust me i've done it already. My only question is did anyone come up with an answer with the question of the whole oil pan issue? Does anyone have anypics? Has anyone done this swap? WTF. I still dont understand why we all are argueing bout makin a small block fast. I just want some more info on installing this set up. the search button seems to be useless on this topic. One last thing, with rotating assemblies for under 1,200 bucks for stroker kits, an ungodly amount of cam companies, alluminum head companies, spring and valve companies, why would anyone try to argue that you cant make any small block chevy fast, for nay sayers i say open a super chevy magazine, or better go to the track, or if N/A isnt your thing supercharge it. Sorry for rambling, PLease help me with my questions at hand. Thanks in advance

thank god somebody has a brain. i dont blame you for telling ricer what TPi stood for, i didnt think he knew.

i wouldnt use any information z28ricer gives you.

yes tpis have longer runners than other stock sbcs, but their not long enough for drag racing.

z28ricer doesnt even know how intake runners or cam lift and duration effect the engine.

and for the last time the intake manifold isnt what makes the powerband narrow! its the camshaft! you can make them rev as high as you want to.

and dont listan to this retard say that you cant make them more powerful than a lt1 for cheap.

lt1s are turds. a cheap lower intake manifold helps a ton, but you dont need it if you want to make more power than a LTurd1.

a simple cam swap and maybe heads if you want to (cheap heads... like vortecs) will make more power than an lt1.

TPIs are easily capable of 1000hp... just like the oter sbcs (hp stands for horse power just in case you didnt know ricer)

the good thing about tpis is the parts selection. lt1s have a minimal parts selection compared to gen 1 sbcs.

where do you get your information from? why do you think tpis cant rev above 5500? your an idiot

an lt1 is an engine with a real limitation with its redline. the factory optispark wont keep up above 6500ish. the only true solution to this is a coil pack conversion.

and as stated before. reverse coolant flow is a joke. if a lt1 sees too much boost they try to push the heads off.

but ricer wouldnt know anything about that because his junk is stock.

if you want to race ill run you. will ur junk even make it all the way to kentucky? i figure u aughta have the balls to make the drive since your so sure ull win.

so man up or get out of this thread with your inacurate information
Modified by drewhenderson13 at 11:16 AM 11/8/2007

[Z28ricer]

I'll make this one simple and short, this will be easy, simply show a TPI engine dyno graph making more power than an LT1 somewhere above 5000 RPM, show me a dyno graph of one making some real power above 4500 rpm, chances are you wont be able to, unless its boosted, whether you want to sit and cry and spout your bs matters not, because it just doesnt work.

Chances are i've spun wrenches on more "TPI" sbc's than you've ever looked at, so go for it please quit running your mouth, get an L98 and install a cam with huge lift and lots of duration, you wont, you are guessing and quite full of it, little kid running his mouth...

thank god somebody has a brain. i dont blame you for telling ricer what TPi stood for, i didnt think he knew.

i wouldnt use any information z28ricer gives you.

yes tpis have longer runners than other stock sbcs, but their not long enough for drag racing.

z28ricer doesnt even know how intake runners or cam lift and duration effect the engine.

and for the last time the intake manifold isnt what makes the powerband narrow! its the camshaft! you can make them rev as high as you want to.

and dont listan to this retard say that you cant make them more powerful than a lt1 for cheap.

lt1s are turds. a cheap lower intake manifold helps a ton, but you dont need it if you want to make more power than a LTurd1.

a simple cam swap and maybe heads if you want to (cheap heads... like vortecs) will make more power than an lt1.

TPIs are easily capable of 1000hp... just like the oter sbcs (hp stands for horse power just in case you didnt know ricer)

the good thing about tpis is the parts selection. lt1s have a minimal parts selection compared to gen 1 sbcs.

where do you get your information from? why do you think tpis cant rev above 5500? your an idiot

an lt1 is an engine with a real limitation with its redline. the factory optispark wont keep up above 6500ish. the only true solution to this is a coil pack conversion.

and as stated before. reverse coolant flow is a joke. if a lt1 sees too much boost they try to push the heads off.

but ricer wouldnt know anything about that because his junk is stock.

if you want to race ill run you. will ur junk even make it all the way to kentucky? i figure u aughta have the balls to make the drive since your so sure ull win.

so man up or get out of this thread with your inacurate information

Modified by drewhenderson13 at 11:16 AM 11/8/2007

[Z28ricer]

Straight from an article by Super Chevy doing a build on a tpi engine

To illustrate this point, torque production from a typical L98 Vette motor exceeded horsepower production by roughly 100 lbs-ft. Rated at 250 hp, the TPI system helped the 350 pump out an amazing 350 lbs-ft of torque. Naturally this over abundance of mid-range torque came with a penalty. The same runners in the TPI system that were designed to enhance power production below 5000 rpm, lost efficiency rapidly thereafter. TPI motors were all about instant gratification. There was never any waiting to come on the cam, just plenty of torque to get things going in a hurry. Unfortunately, the long runner lengths quickly put an end to the party.

[drewhenderson13]

do you know how tpi intakes are TUNED for power below 5000rpm?

it is because the runners are NARROW and long. aftermarket runners solve this problem easily. the length of the runners can be an advantage if you just widen them.

heres the article you read

http://www.superchevy.com/tech....html

that piece you quoted was rafering to a completly STOCK tpi

i think you left out the part where they stroked it to 383 and changed the intake runners.

keep in mind they still used a lot of STOCK parts to keep the looks STOCK.

"Tuned with the FAST management system, the 383 eventually produced 458 hp, and an amazing 534 lbs-ft of torque. You read that right, 534 lbs-ft of torque from a small-block. Talk about the perfect street stroker. The combination of displacement, cam timing, and airflow improvements added up to a gain of 131 hp (measured peak to peak), but that gain exceeded 150 hp out at 6000 rpm.

The torque gains were equally impressive, especially given the already torquey nature of the stock L98. While most small-blocks struggle to produce 500 lbs-ft of torque, this 383 not only produced 534 lbs-ft of torque, but also exceeded 500 lbs-ft from 3200 rpm to 4600 rpm. It was like we added a blower or turbo kit without anyone being the wiser."

you see that... still making power at 6000rpm. and thats a street motor, not a motor built for real racing.

they wanted to take advantage of the low-mid rpm power that a sbc makes. its not hard to put the power higher in the rpms if thats what you want.

[drewhenderson13]

herse another quote from that article word for word

in reference to STOCK tpi intake design. this tells why they make power so low in the rpms."In addition to the introduction of individual port injection, the TPI systems also provided a unique induction system. Designed to flow air (the injectors are positioned at the base of the intake to flow fuel only into the head port), the TPI systems incorporated tuned runner lengths to optimize power production at the lower rev ranges. With long, SMALL-DIAMETER intake ports, the TPI system enhanced low- and mid-range torque production."

and this is the little cam they used on the 500ft-pd 383"The short-block was further enhanced with a (still mild) XR264HR cam that offered a .487/.495 lift split, a 212/218 duration split, and a 110-degree lobe separation angle."

its all in the article. i suggest everyone reads it. it shows what a little work (common modifications i might ad) can do to a tpi.

tpis are very capable motors, despite what some ignorant people might tell you.

just because their old technology doesnt mean their slow. if old technology sucks so bad why do people still use carbuerators? you just have to know what your working with and take advantage of it.

[Z28ricer]

Common modifications, right, after they got the heads ported (Aluminum corvette heads that dont come on the common f body engines), replaced the runners with a set that run about $500, spend who knows what extrude honing the baseplate but for comparison a typical high flow baseplate is about $400, installed a stroker bottom end, $1000 in parts and probably about $400 in machine work, installed an aftermarket efi controller $1500 roughly for what was used, an aftermarket throttle body for $350, cam etc, they finally ended up with a motor. Good job just as I said, its not going to be making any power on the super cheap as you stated, just the intake manifold setup alone would run you about $1000 let alone the rest of it, guess you better not look into any LT1's those sorry pieces of crap can usually only get around 430 RWHP with ported stock heads, ported stock intake manifold and the stock displacement, dont look now but thats about 500 HP at the crank with a 15% drivetrain loss, ouch guess i better get rid of my piece of crap LT1 and get me a tuned port huh ?

Add the LT1 comparison to the fact that the LT1 is about 10x easier to work on than the TPI setup, obviously you havent owned one or you wouldnt be praising it so, as far as aftermarket for the LT1 goes, i'd like to see where its lacking, the internals are the same components used for any 350 sbc since 1986, sure the cam dowel has to be changed for the vented opti versions, you just cant interchange heads, wow there are only castings by AFR, Trick Flow, Edelbrock, let alone the stock heads being capable of 500 HP NA with proper port work... Oh i guess you wanted aftermarket intake manifolds ? Darn there arent a million aftermarket replacements, oh thats because the stockers are so able to make power...

[Z28ricer]

For comparison here are some typical results from one of the two well known suppliers of ported factory LT1 heads...Oh and i guess Dart now makes a head for the LT1 go figure, gotta hate that non aftermarket support.....

Our new Fully CNC Ported LT1 Packages are finding great success at the track! Thus far Rick Abare's 94 TA has run a best of [email protected]! This is a 3470lb car with our LT1 CNC Street Head package, a valvetrain upgrade and bolt-on suspension!

With supporting modifications, manual stock short-block F and Y-bodies can typically produce 375-405rwhp SAE corrected or 395-425rwhp STD corrected depending on cam and valvetrain selection. More importantly, full weight stock shortblock f-bodies can typically run low 12's to high 11's on drag radials at 114-118mph with this head.

This is their starter package, $1800, including the camshaft, simply add injectors, tuning, proper exhaust, and a throttle body....

And the other end of the spectrum, the all out package

100% CNC'd 200cc Competition LT1 Cylinder Head Package: This is our newest, and most powerful LT1 offering to date. Delivering performance that surpasses even our 190cc Street/Strip head, this offering is the final word in LT1 performance. Not only has this head powered Rick Abare's 650hp 383LT1 into the 9's at over 138mph in a 3440-3470lb Trans-Am, it's abused the rollers with over 480rwhp from a NA 355 LT1

Wow a whopping $1975