another sr won't start thread

[White Comet]

of course before making this thread i did lots of searching and being familiar with engines i started checking all the basic stuff but i figured other opinions would be good.

background this is the 2nd s13 i've had this sr in. when i bought my last s13 this engine was already swapped in and running fine. i've since swapped it over to the new shell and did a wire tuck. because the engine ran fine before in my possession, i'm certain the timing and cas are correct since none of that was messed with at all and i'm betting compression is fine too. the engine is an s13 blacktop, it's internally stock with a top mount gt30, fmic, hks ssqv, walbro 255 lph fuel pump and stock injectors for now.

symptomswith the engine in this shell i haven't been able to start it yet. when i turn the key it almost starts up but just doesnt quite make it. i'll get a vid shortly of exactly what it sounds like.

what i've tried so far at first the fuel pump was acting a little screwy so that wiring was corrected and the fp relay is no longer grounded through the ecu but to metal just as any other ground is. i also made sure i have good gas in it since i put $20 of premium in it and all other fluids are new as well. after trying to start it a few times i drained the battery some so i've had it trickle charging for days ever time i'm not messing with the car, but i'm worried that the battery might be too far gone and just needs replaced. its roughly 3 years old and its an optima red top. i'm dropping it off tomorrow to get tested. i also thought the ignitor chip was bad since it would get scorching hot when i tried to start it so i replaced it with a q45 one, this one doesnt get hot but the car still doesnt start. the next thing i'm going to do is check the spark plugs. i'm thinking they might be fouled by now and i'm going to replace them anyways. i'd appreciate any other suggestions of things i may have overlooked. thank you

[Sil80315]

first step. Check ecu for codes.

[White Comet]

thats a good idea i hadn't thought of. now i just have to look up how to check for ecu codes. its been a really long time since i've done that and i don't remember how to at all.

btw- spark plugs are looking a little worn so i'll replace em but i don't think they're bad enough to stop the car from starting. battery tested good at 740cca so theres no problems there.

[PhopsonNY]

I know this is probably not it, but have you checked your starter?

You never know... something may have altered something esp with the wire tuck.

Good luck

[White Comet]

starter and its wiring are fine. i'm about to go check for codes, check spark, and double check my ignitor chip wiring

[J240sx]

I always start with checking for spark and then fuel.. From there i would make sure you have everything grounded. When I tried to start up my swap for the first time I had the same problem you were mentioning.. For me it turned out that I had flooded the engine by trying to start it so many times. I had a friend come over and he got it to start right away by just keeping the gas pedal down before he started it. I assume that it didnt let more gas in when starting it or something like that.

[White Comet]

absolutely everything is grounded so i know its not that. i'm gonna check for spark but i need another set of hands for that. i'm gonna go see if the injectors are firing and take a multimeter to the q45 ignitor wiring. the ecu threw code 55 so it looks like i'm good there.

[duffman1278]

Try redoing your timing, it took me 3 times until I finally got it. Remove all your plugs as well and let the gas that's in the cylinders evaporate.

[White Comet]

yeah i started pulling the plugs already, but i'm not touching the timing. you might have missed it but the engine ran in my last car with this timing. so i'm not gonna start messing with it

[the converted]

Like others said, make sure you have spark, and make sure that your injectors are actually spraying before going any further.

[White Comet]

thats what i'm gonna do today, but checking both of those are 2 man jobs, so thats why i havent been able to yet

[Wretched]

Really need to get that video man, your description is a little fuzzy. You're saying it tries to start but dies instantly? Sounds like a fuel issue from THAT description. I'd try spraying some starting fluid in a vacuum line and see if it stays running a little longer.

[White Comet]

no spark and 0.08 volts at the injectors. heres a pic of the spark plugs

and finally a vid so you can hear what it sounds like

[J240sx]

You could just take the fuel line off and put it into an old oil or washer fluid bottle. And dont forget to put the gas pedal to the floor and then try starting it.

[White Comet]

i'm sorry, not to be a jerk, but that post wasn't very helpful. i stated i'm not getting spark or power to the fuel injectors. putting my foot on the gas won't do anything

[Wretched]

Check all your spliced connections (the two by the headlight and the one under the dash). I know you took the harness and motor out of your old car, but you never know. Did the new shell run before the swap? I would start swapping relays first, then try another ecu.

[the converted]

The power for the injectors come from the connector by the headlights, I spent way to much time trying to figure that out once.

[White Comet]

thanks for the suggestion guys but i figured out the lack of voltage at the injectors. keegan was over the other day and blew his 10a fuse for "electronics" in fro t of my house, so i gave him mine so he could drive it home. and never put one back in, so i put one in today and the injectors are fine now, but i still have no spark. while check wiring with keegan we came across an interesting and puzzling discovery. the 4 pin side of my ignitor chip plug gets 12 volts all the time even with the key off. now this should show 12v at all should it? it goes directly to the coil packs and doesnt tap into anything else, so where is it getting the 12v source from? and i also get 12v from the 5 pin side that goes to the ecu. this should only have power when the key i turned to the on position right? why would it need power when your car is sitting there parked? and i've also noticed the ignitor chip gets warm when i crank the car. i just want to know if these things are normal, thanks fr any help

[Wretched]

I couldn't test at my ignitor cause it's in an akward place and I tweaked my back a few days ago...but anyway, I tested at the coil harness and none of those (5 pins) have power with the key off. Start tracing that wire and see where it's picking up the 12v from.

Did this shell run before the swap? (again lol)

[PhopsonNY]

When I had a starting problem, I did the search too and found that I also had a constant 12v to my injectors even with the key out.Car works just fine now... btw, my problem was timing.

thanks for the suggestion guys but i figured out the lack of voltage at the injectors. keegan was over the other day and blew his 10a fuse for "electronics" in fro t of my house, so i gave him mine so he could drive it home. and never put one back in, so i put one in today and the injectors are fine now, but i still have no spark. while check wiring with keegan we came across an interesting and puzzling discovery. the 4 pin side of my ignitor chip plug gets 12 volts all the time even with the key off. now this should show 12v at all should it? it goes directly to the coil packs and doesnt tap into anything else, so where is it getting the 12v source from? and i also get 12v from the 5 pin side that goes to the ecu. this should only have power when the key i turned to the on position right? why would it need power when your car is sitting there parked? and i've also noticed the ignitor chip gets warm when i crank the car. i just want to know if these things are normal, thanks fr any help

[White Comet]

I couldn't test at my ignitor cause it's in an akward place and I tweaked my back a few days ago...but anyway, I tested at the coil harness and none of those (5 pins) have power with the key off. Start tracing that wire and see where it's picking up the 12v from.

Did this shell run before the swap? (again lol)

nah this shell hasnt run since i've owned it, and every single wire has been replaced with wiring from another car that did run before. now did you test for power out at where the coilpack subharness connects somewhere behind the motor? and did you test the coilpack side or the other side?

When I had a starting problem, I did the search too and found that I also had a constant 12v to my injectors even with the key out.Car works just fine now... btw, my problem was timing.

hmm thats interesting. where did you check for voltage at?

[Wretched]

Harness side...

[White Comet]

ok so just to make sure we're on the same page, you tested the plug thats for the coilpack subharness on the body side (not going to coilpacks). amiright?

[Wretched]

Lol yeah man

[White Comet]

alright so heres what it boils down to. i went over to didderson's today and checked the voltage at his ignitor just cuz i know it runs. now, with the key off he gets no voltage from either side of the ignitor. when the key was turned to the on position, he gets 12v from the 4 pin (side going to the coilpacks) and still nothing from the 5 pin side (going to the ecu). so the odd thing that my car is doing is having voltage on the 5 pin ecu side all the time. the coilpack side is doing what it should. but what could possibly cause the ecu side of the plug to get power when it never should? this will probably explain why my ignitor chip gets hot. could this be a bad ecu even though nothing looks fried on the inside

[Wretched]

I would check for a short to power, but that's pretty unlikely. Just try swapping ecus and ignitor, I would think the problem has to be in one of those.

Edit: I also don't have a complete wiring diagram here at my house, so if anybody out there has that, they should be able to point you in the right direction.

[White Comet]

i really don't want to buy another ecu but i might have to. the wiring is very simple; wires go from the ecu to the ignitor chip and from there to the coil packs. the ignitor was already replaced so i really doubt i keep putting bad ones in.

one thing i did find is that the ht q45 diagram i went with for the ignitor chip is rumored to have a typo. i'm checking it out right now and i've been going through the fsm all night. so if it isnt the ignitor chip wiring, or ecu i'm out of ideas

[Wretched]

You don't know anybody that will let you use their ecu?

Edit: which wire on your coilpack harness are you get power at? I'll check it against mine to see which one gets power w/the key on.

[Hijacker]

just to clear up the power flow for you, WC. Battery -> relay -> Coil Packs -> Ignitor -> ECU -> Ground. The ECU doesn't provide power to the coil packs. The packs fire by cutting the 12v signal to them. When the voltage is cut, the power that is currently built up in the primary coil will jump and arc to the secondary coil which is attached to the spark plugs and an engine ground. Depending on how the tightly wound the coils are will determine how much of a voltage increase there is, but most ignition systems should see a very significant jump. The ignitor is more or less a way to soften the voltage heading into the ECU so it doesn't fry from the repeated on/off nature of ignition spark.

So you should be getting power to the side coming from your ignitor. If you're not getting a continuous power flow across it, I would swap out the ignitor and see if that fixes your issue.

[White Comet]

You don't know anybody that will let you use their ecu?

Edit: which wire on your coilpack harness are you get power at? I'll check it against mine to see which one gets power w/the key on.

i don't know anyone with a blacktop only red tops. so i'll just look for a cheap one. i don't remember off the op of my head which wire it was at the coil pack but i'll get back to you on that.

just to clear up the power flow for you, WC. Battery -> relay -> Coil Packs -> Ignitor -> ECU -> Ground. The ECU doesn't provide power to the coil packs. The packs fire by cutting the 12v signal to them. When the voltage is cut, the power that is currently built up in the primary coil will jump and arc to the secondary coil which is attached to the spark plugs and an engine ground. Depending on how the tightly wound the coils are will determine how much of a voltage increase there is, but most ignition systems should see a very significant jump. The ignitor is more or less a way to soften the voltage heading into the ECU so it doesn't fry from the repeated on/off nature of ignition spark.

So you should be getting power to the side coming from your ignitor. If you're not getting a continuous power flow across it, I would swap out the ignitor and see if that fixes your issue.

yeah i know the way the voltage is supposed to flow but i have voltage flowing the correct way, but then i also have the ecu providing power to the ignitor. its screwy. the 4 pin side of my ignitor chip has power only when the key is on, just like it should. but the 5 pin side going to the ecu has power all the time, even with the key out, and it should have it at all. i doubt its the ignitor since i already replaced it. its looking more and more like the ecu, because those wires from the ignitor chip go into ecu pins 1, 2, 8 and 9. so i don't see any other way they could get power besides from a bad ecu