Another poser musclecar from Chrysler...

[AZhitman]

Pandering to the NASCAR crowd, I'm sure... Chrysler displayed the 2013 Dodge Charger Daytona at the LA Auto Show.

For an extra three grand tacked onto your 84-month payment plan, you get the following performance enhancements:

*matte-black vinyl graphics
*unique wheels
*Daytona logo interior trim
*blue plastic engine cover
*shiny pedals
*numbered badge on the dash

They're building 2,500 Daytonas. One is already spoken for.

[Hijacker]

Why the charger? Should have given a power bump to the Challenger and considered that a Daytona package.

[Bubba1]

I guess PT Barnum was right. But in all fairness, people paid a huge premium a few short years ago for the most recent iteration of the Mercury Marauder, which was not much more than a big, heavy, spongy, black Grand Marquis with all it's chrome replaced by black plastic, 2 unreadable guages in the console, and the police package, (which you could order).

[krash]

While I am a fan of the current Charger, its dumb that the "daytona" package is just a cosmetic upgrade. Gimme 3 grand and some plasti-dip and I'll make your charger a "daytona"

[MinisterofDOOM]

I don't understand the Mopar hate...

At least SOMEONE is building cars with the engines facing the right way and a proper cylinder count. And they're cars that don't come with luxury emblems attached and thousands of dollars and hundreds of pounds of luxotechnonsense that I don't want in my car.

Nissan's not doing it.
Ford's not doing it.
GM's working on it but it's not here yet (their Caprice is cop-only and the SS still doesn't exist, meanwhile the new Impala is wrong-wheel-drive as ever).

Hate them, love them, don't care about them. But they're NOT posers. Powertrains in Chrysler's stuff right now are FANTASTIC. A brilliant, torquey, responsive, efficient V6. A great-sounding, powerful (if inefficient) V8. MANUAL TRANSMISSIONS WITH CLUTCHES AND LEVERS.

How the Hell can you be a car guy and bash this stuff? Choice is good. If you don't like it, don't buy it. I don't want one. But I'm glad they exist.

If you want to b**** about something, b**** about Camrys. Or the Civic becoming a cheapass pile of s***. Or something ELSE that's BAD for our favorite entertainment industry.

Chrysler's not hurting anyone. Their quality's improving. They make GENUINELY GOOD CARS (along with the bad ones). They make excellent trucks. They're not trying to trick everyone into thinking turbos are God's gift to the world while V8s are Satan incarnate. Find something worthwile to pick on. Let the Charger be.

Why the charger? Should have given a power bump to the Challenger and considered that a Daytona package.

Because the Challenger is one of the things Chrylser DID get wrong. Maybe ten years ago it could have worked. But Camaro and Mustang are to incredible for the Challenger to matter in 2012--er 2013 I guess.

[Loki]

Generally agree with MoD. Only complaint I have with Chrysler is that the Dart feels like another Neon.

[AZhitman]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. It's not hate, it's disdain...and pity.

When a car, in its basic iteration, is available as a stripped-down base model at Enterprise Rent-a-Car, I sure don't want to drop $36K on its gussied-up doppelganger.

It's the same reason I dislike the Evo, the Cobalt SS, and the SRT Neon.

Having a V8 doesn't make it impressive to me. It means they've ignored ways to make a V6 outperform a V8, and still charge the same for it. It's less technological advancement for the same money. RWD is dandy, and I wish more manufacturers were doing it, but it's still a 16-19 mpg 2-ton car with an automatic transmission.

No, the '13 Charger doesn't have a manual transmission. And it DOES have a bunch of techno crap - You're gonna have to buy used to get away from that:
Brake Assist
Rain Brake Support
Ready Alert Braking
Electronic Stability Control
Hill Start Assist
All Speed Traction Control
Cargo Compartment Dress-Up
Illuminated Front Cup Holders
Color Electronic Veh Info Ctr w/Reconfigure Display... etc.
_________________________________

The Challenger, aside from being oversized, is a handsome package... at least it got the retro "look" correct. I'm less-than-impressed with the Mustang, and the Camaro makes me barf in my mouth a little. Make it 5/8th size and it'd be interesting...

20" wheels and a little retro-gingerbread might impress the homeys down on the corner, but I like to be able to reach across the roof of a "sports car" and have it weigh less than our 4x4 truck.

[Kompresshun]

...

I'm 100% with this guy.

While I like some of what Ford and GM are doing too, I LOVE what Chrysler has been doing lately. A few years ago, you couldn't give me a Chrysler product, but now i'd actually consider buying one. Like MoD said: Hate them, love them, don't care about them, they're not posers. If you don't like it, then don't buy it, but there's no reason to sit here and bash them.

Nissan STILL hasn't made anything that excites me and makes me want to run down to the local dealer right away for a test drive. I could spend most of the day on the local Chrysler lot though. They're making a ton of interesting vehicles right now and while some of them may not be top notch, they're at least TRYING to reinvent themselves right now and are trying to become a better company.

Meanwhile, Nissan, Toyota, and Honda are happy just being mediocre aside from the GT-R and the Toyobaru twins.

Hell, our Jeep Commander has still been honestly the best SUV i've owned to date and it was my by pre-Fiat Chrysler. I can't say the same about our QX4 though - it was a pile of junk that looked pretty, but sounded like it was going to fall apart at any moment. It didn't even have 90k on it when we traded it in.

Having a V8 doesn't make it impressive to me. It means they've ignored ways to make a V6 outperform a V8, and still charge the same for it. It's less technological advancement for the same money. RWD is dandy, and I wish more manufacturers were doing it, but it's still a 16-19 mpg 2-ton car with an automatic transmission.

Ok, now I REALLY disagree with you here. Have you even read about the new GM LT1 for the C7 Corvette? Yes, there is room for V6's to outperform V8's, but that doesn't mean the V8 should go away. A V8 can still become more efficient and i'm never going to buy into the "smaller with boost/hybrid/sunshine and rainbows is better" crap. Just because it may not be the popular powerplant currently, doesn't mean there's not room for it to improve and I think there will always be a demand for that throbbing V8 powerplant under the hood of vehicles.

Chrysler isn't ignoring the V6 either - The Pentastar is a great powerplant and seems to touch on all of the issues you just mentioned. I'm sure it's quite capable of outperforming the V8, but just like Ford has proven: That more efficient V6 becomes a gas guzzler once you throw too much boost to it.(See Ford Taurus SHO/Lincoln MKS)

Seriously, what have you done with the old Greg and who the heck are you? Ever since you got that Insight, you've become such a hippie

[raremotive]

The Challenger, aside from being oversized, is a handsome package... at least it got the retro "look" correct. I'm less-than-impressed with the Mustang, and the Camaro makes me barf in my mouth a little. Make it 5/8th size and it'd be interesting...

20" wheels and a little retro-gingerbread might impress the homeys down on the corner, but I like to be able to reach across the roof of a "sports car" and have it weigh less than our 4x4 truck.

I agree about oversizing of the Challenger and Camaro, everytime I see them I think Tonka toys.

Who did the body work on the Charger, it's stupid. The door vent design is too far back.. it's just out of place...

[AZhitman]

If you honestly think you can compare an LS with the engine in that Chrysler, you need to go drive a C6. The LT1 could theoretically DOUBLE the mpg of the Chrysler dinosaur and make gobs more power doing it.

I don't have an issue with V8's at all - I have an issue with how Chrysler can't get more than 20mpg out of one, slaps it in a car that looks like a Checker Marathon, puts out the semi-misleading "Hemi" marketing campaign and watches the non-enthusiasts beat their door down.

When the demand ebbs, they whip out the 3M tape and revive the "Daytona" moniker without adding ONE IOTA of performance to the car. When someone does that on a Honda, it's ricer. Slap a "Mugen" or "Type-R" badge on a Civic and you'll get laughed off the forum, but it's ok for the tools at Chrysler? Puh-leeze.

This isn't about Nissan, Honda or Toyota - I've been VERY outspoken about their failings. I'm just not drinking Chrysler's silly "Imported from Detroit" Kool-Aid.

p.s. It has an automatic. Let's not forget that part.

[AZhitman]

Who did the body work on the Charger, it's stupid. The door vent design is too far back.. it's just out of place...

You don't see the resemblance?


Yeah. Me neither. It's a taxicab / rental car. Hell, it's not even a real good cop car (I've driven them... they're sad.)

[MinisterofDOOM]

I DESPISE the factory body damage on the door of the charger. I also hate that Chrysler got rid of the "haunches" from the rear of the last generation. The new one's bodylines are much more generic. The DETAILS are crying out in agression but the overall lines are overly subdued. Backward approach for certain.

When a car, in its basic iteration, is available as a stripped-down base model at Enterprise Rent-a-Car, I sure don't want to drop $36K on its gussied-up doppelganger.

It's the same reason I dislike the Evo, the Cobalt SS, and the SRT Neon.

I ABSOLUTELY agree with you on this point. I hate the Evo passionately for this reason. The Lancer is pure, unadulterated garbage, and hotted-up versions with wrong-wheel-plus drive don't help that.
The difference is that the modern base-model charger isn't as bad as you're making it out to be.

I think you're also coming at it from the wrong direction. The base-model Charger isn't a wannabe musclecar. It's a desireable alternative to all the other family sedans out there. Which is what American muscle always had at its core anyway. You can spend $25k on a base-model 4-banger Camry or Accord, or $25k on a base-model Charger with a MUCH nicer interior and a world-class V6 with comparable fuel economy. Much bigger, VASTLY superior powertrain, and the interior of even the clothy, base-model Charger is in a whole 'nother leage from all but the leatheriest Camry. For the same money. Same with Accord. Cheapass 4-cylinder model with no options, or a V6 Charger? NOT A HARD CHOICE. Especially with Honda's styling these days.

Unless you're comparing the Charger to REAL SPORTS CARS, it stands up for itself quite well. It's no LS8. But it's a HELL of a lot more desirable package than the Camry. And then you can add some hotrod to it. Which was what the musclecar formula always consisted of. SS Impalas and 550 Galaxies back in the day were EXACTLY "gussied up doppelganger" versions of rental-car fodder straight-six gutlessmobiles. Hell, you could get pointless, gutless, crude iron-block, pushrod American four-bangers in a Nova. Who'd want that?! Or you could get a 396. Yeah. Same deal here. Except that the base model has an engine you actually want, and then the hot one has even MORE motor.

I do agree that the Hemi is way behind the curve as far as power output and efficiency goes. It was from the start, but the engine was designed back when that didn't matter. Chrysler needs a full redesign of their V8, and they need to stop depending on MARKETING AND NAMING for their cachet in the V8 market. Honestly, I think they'd have been better off sticking with their old LA Small Blocks (there's a reason the new Fiat-designed Viper STILL uses one!).

I'm super excited for Chevy's SS sedan, though. Rather than a mediocre rear-driver to look good next to Camrys, it'll be a legitimately GOOD rear-drive sedan with V8 power ONLY. The fantastic Holden platform that everyone loves and GM keeps teasing us with. LS3 power. It can't fail.

[AZhitman]

I think you're also coming at it from the wrong direction. The base-model Charger isn't a wannabe musclecar. It's a desireable alternative to all the other family sedans out there. Which is what American muscle always had at its core anyway. You can spend $25k on a base-model 4-banger Camry or Accord, or $25k on a base-model Charger with a MUCH nicer interior and a world-class V6 with comparable fuel economy. Much bigger, VASTLY superior powertrain, and the interior of even the clothy, base-model Charger is in a whole 'nother leage from all but the leatheriest Camry. For the same money. Same with Accord. Cheapass 4-cylinder model with no options, or a V6 Charger? NOT A HARD CHOICE. Especially with Honda's styling these days.

No argument here on this, although I'd be shopping Korea and Furd as well.

Unless you're comparing the Charger to REAL SPORTS CARS, it stands up for itself quite well.

I guess maybe that's part of it - The sullying of a classic nameplate always makes me cringe.

...which was what the musclecar formula always consisted of. SS Impalas and 550 Galaxies back in the day were EXACTLY "gussied up doppelganger" versions of rental-car fodder straight-six gutlessmobiles.

Great point, duly noted.

I do agree that the Hemi is way behind the curve as far as power output and efficiency goes. It was from the start, but the engine was designed back when that didn't matter.

Now, let's see them make that V8 do something impressive. Hell, 300hp doesn't excite me when it has to haul around 2 tons of ugly. Get some direct injection, some aluminum, some variable timing... but don't tell me a V8 in 2013 can't do better than 16mpg. That's LAZINESS and a lack of innovation (are the engineers union workers too?)

Chrysler needs a full redesign of their V8, and they need to stop depending on MARKETING AND NAMING for their cachet in the V8 market. Honestly, I think they'd have been better off sticking with their old LA Small Blocks (there's a reason the new Fiat-designed Viper STILL uses one!).

When a car company panders to mouthbreathers ("That thing got a HEMI?"), I don't put a lot of faith in their actual CONTENT. And, as you said, it's lacking. The Big Three have existed for so long with a really, really low bar, that it's a "woo-hoo" moment when they do something that's even ON PAR with the rest of the world.

But Chrysler has a LONG way to go. I'd still be more inclined to drive a '13 Fusion over the Chrysler Marathon.

[audtatious]

I kinda like the tail lights....and I don't need a manual. I also can afford bad gas mileage. I don't like their direction of taking what were coupes and offering them as 4-doors.

[AZhitman]

Don't get me started on the goofy tail lights. I thought Audi riced up their stuff with the silly LED beams, now this?

What's wrong with clean, crisp LED blocks like Caddy uses? There's a fine line between classy and cheesy.

[Kompresshun]

I like the tail lights on them as well. It's more of a throwback to me though, because every since I saw the first ones I knew it was a Dodge.

What's wrong with being different? The 300 doesn't have cheesy tail lights, but why does Dodge have to be like the rest of the crowd? At least you can tell the difference between a Charger and the other larger sedans out there.

Are there better sedans out there? Sure there are. Even Top Gear proved that the Ford Police Interceptor is a better all around car than the Charger, but on the other hand, how can you really compare it to anything right now? How many domestic RWD sedans are left? Yes the Caprice/SS is going to be available soon, but other than that you're left with the Charger and the 300. If you want anything else in that category you're going to have to head over to Infiniti, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, and ect. I can promise you'll spend a lot more for a similar package on their lots. They may be better sedans, but they're not a better value and don't give you that same sense of satisfaction without spending a lot more money.

I get what you're saying about them just slapping stickers on it and offering no extra performance, but plenty of other brands are guilty of doing the same or similar. What about the IPL G Coupe? It offers a measly performance increase with some minor appearance changes and a premium attached. Or how about the SE or Sport Toyotas? Slap some ground effects on and some gunmetal wheels and you'll gain 50hp! That's just a few examples of similar failures. At least Chrysler is trying to offer different options and trying to appeal to more than generation beige.

[audtatious]

Don't get me started on the goofy tail lights. I thought Audi riced up their stuff with the silly LED beams, now this?

What's wrong with clean, crisp LED blocks like Caddy uses? There's a fine line between classy and cheesy.

I respect your opinion on the tail lights, I like them. I'm your elder so you must respect me and mine

Nothing wrong with the led blocks like Caddy uses, I like those too. Those "goofy" tail lights are different and interesting.

[Bubba1]

IBecause the Challenger is one of the things Chrylser DID get wrong. Maybe ten years ago it could have worked. But Camaro and Mustang are to incredible for the Challenger to matter in 2012--er 2013 I guess.

I initially thought Chrysler got it wrong with the new Challenger, and the base R/T version I still think that way but the SRT8 version made me rethink my position. Yes, it's 1000+ lbs too heavy, too big, & the pedals are too far apart, but after spending some track time in one, I think they built a heck of car. I would probably still buy a Laguna Sega Mustang over an SRT8 Challenger, but I can't bash Chrysler for their inability to build non-poser muscle/sports cars (Viper....cough)

[PapaSmurf2k3]

I can't see myself ever owning a chrysler. It just seems like nothing about them is ground breaking or best in class. I'd always have that feeling of "GM does this a lot better", or "At least Ford did it this way". Not to mention their horrendous track record of the last 40 years producing garbage. The other 2 of the big 3 at least had a few bright shining moments throughout the decades. The viper is ok, but holy hell it's expensive.

[AZhitman]

Having spent a lot of time checking out the '13 Viper, I can tell you, I'd still rather own a C5 / C6. So would my insurance company and my gas bill.

Back to the "Daytona". If you're gonna slap a "HEMI" badge and a "Daytona" package on something, at least let's have it be able to outrun a 2012 Subaru Legacy 2.5GT Limited.

The SRT8 has some serious firepower, but that's a $50K Dodge. For that money, you can shop a pretty broad range of performance cars.

[bundy26]

For a little bit less than 50k my brother got an 06 C6 z06 with 12000 miles, I don't see an SRT8 keeping up with that, I sat in a challenger and the interior was boring to look at but the 300s is a different story, very nice car.

[AZhitman]

Hell, I paid $16K for a pristine low-mileage C5, dropped another $4K and had 400hp and all C6 Z06 suspension.

I'll definitely own another one... I just bought it too soon. My 25mph 1.5 hour commute wasn't the best situation for a beastly sports car.

FWIW, I love the look of the Challenger (more so than the 'stang or Camaro), but it's simply too damn big.

[gwoods]

Oh your talking about this? It was a Sema too




I liked it, looks better then a charger or challenger to me and come on hitman you love vettes this is every bit a giant phallus as a vette is why you hating bro?

I do have a soft spot for more power cars and trucks though. Before my wonderful 07 G35 sedan I rocked a 12 second 2004 4 door hemi ram with $6,000 in go fast parts including dual stage 200hp nitrous (75/125 shots).

[AZhitman]

Oh your talking about this? It was a Sema too


come on hitman you love vettes this is every bit a giant phallus as a vette is why you hating bro?

Hahaha, yeah, I saw that abomination and its 118-mph ECU-limited top speed.

'Vettes are lightweight and small, purpose-built vehicles. The Camaro and Challenger are, effectively, midsize sedans that have had 2 doors removed. The "retro" styling is just gingerbread to wow the unwashed masses.

I'm with you tho - I love me some ridiculous, unnecessary, obscene power. I'd have loved a ride in that truck - How the hell did you get that thing to hook up?

[Bubba1]

For a little bit less than 50k my brother got an 06 C6 z06 with 12000 miles, I don't see an SRT8 keeping up with that.

Actually the new SRT8 can keep up with an 06 Z06. In stock form, both will do the quarter mile within a half second of each other. And considering the SRT8 does it carrying over 1000 extra pounds with a more boxy shape, that's pretty impressive.

[AZhitman]

Actually the new SRT8 can keep up with an 06 Z06.

Until a curve.

[Bubba1]

Actually the new SRT8 can keep up with an 06 Z06.

Until a curve.

True, but that's not what he said.

[gwoods]

I'd have loved a ride in that truck - How the hell did you get that thing to hook up?

Infiniti of Scottsdale took as a trade with P0420/0430 codes and glass packs. It went to auction. I would love to have tracked down the new owner and told him about the Manley valvetraine on the top end, 6.1 hemi cam/lifters, the transgo shift reprogrammer kit, PLM deep pan, Suncoast 2800 true stall (3000 flash) billit torque converter and the Suncoast frictions and steels.

I ran 295/40/18 Toyo Proxes on 18x10 Chrome MKH Model 19 rims on the street

For the track M&H 325/45/17 race masters on aluminum rims






The dodge ecu tcu software is a joke any handheld programmer can remove the speed limiter. I had a superchips for mine but before I bought that if you turned the key and held it in the start posistion you could go as fast as you wanted

[AZhitman]

Nice. Good to know (for the next time I rent one).

[MinisterofDOOM]

'Vettes are lightweight and small, purpose-built vehicles. The Camaro and Challenger are, effectively, midsize sedans that have had 2 doors removed. The "retro" styling is just gingerbread to wow the unwashed masses.

To be fair, the Camaro is an OUTSTANDING midsize sedan with 2 doors removed.

The current Mustang is a sedan with two fewer doors, also. It started life on the drawing board with the same DEW platform my LS8 is built on. And then Ford decided to modify the platform to make it more cost-effective. "Hey, everyone, some English guys built the best sedan we've ever sold. What do you say we fix what isn't broken and call it a Mustang? Who needs IRS anyway?"