Another poser musclecar from Chrysler...

[themadscientist]

I think the important question we must ask is, can it make it over the crick?

[AZhitman]

I can't get past the SIZE of either car... and it seems extraneous.

Comparing it to the G35 (a great GT car, IMO), the Camaro is:
4" longer, 6" wider, 1" lower, same wheelbase, 468 lbs heavier, has 1" less leg room, 3" less head room (forget a helmet), and has 0.5" more shoulder room.

I've driven the new Camaro and Mustang. BOTH feel like they're a great car in a fat suit.

I love a car where the sheetmetal is stretched over the pertinent bits, appearance be damned, with no unnecessary bulging and sculpting. Hell, after seeing my C5 without the nose and tail cones, I thought, "Hmmm. Better!"

[themadscientist]

I find it funny that these new regurgitations of old designs are hard-pressed to decisively best the cars they are supposed to be harking back to. 40 years of technological development and the old man is still showing you his tail on a dead dig and running you into the cones on the skidpad? All that and your styling is so bad a picture of you should be plastered on the back of poisons to conveniently induce vomiting if necessary? No thanks, I'll take the 68 with uprated suspension bits and braking system.

http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/cam ... -test.html

Too Close To Call
It's not often a 40-year-old anything will out-handle its modern counterpart — even when cubic mega-hours have been committed to the task. Still, that's nearly what happened when we hit the track. In fact, around the skid pad, that's exactly what happened. The elder Camaro's 0.93g lateral acceleration number was clearly better than the new car's 0.91g performance.

Through our slalom cones, the first-generation Camaro achieved 68.1 mph to the new car's 68.6 mph. Much of the old car's pace is thanks to a Saginaw 12.7:1 recirculating-ball steering box, which seemingly doubles the Camaro's steering speed. It's a good thing, but makes us keenly aware of the value of rack-and-pinion steering.

Finally, when it comes to stopping, there's no substitute for antilock brakes. Sixteen feet separate the two (127 feet vs. 111 feet) when hauling down from 60 mph. This test, unsurprisingly, fell in favor of the new car.

It's Not About Numbers
Let's be honest. The modern Camaro isn't a car that triggers emotion like the original. To prove this we drove the cars together for a day and contemplated unvarnished public opinion. One observer drove his Civic into the middle of the photo shoot — equally ignoring both the shooter and the looming orange Camaro — to discuss the details of Casanova's LS conversion, even asking him to fire the engine. Another equally unaware spectator piloted his Altima Coupe dangerously close to the old car long enough to invoke stalker laws in most states. He eventually ended his fear-inducing gaze with a "look Ma, no hands!" double-thumbs-up salute. At 79 mph.

And so it goes with bitchin' Camaros.

There's a reason for this. Especially given the hardware we're considering. One is a legend, and the other wants to be. And it's trying hard. Drive them both back to back and certain legend-making qualities emerge in the old car. Like its pencil-thin A-pillars and elbow-on-the door-sill waistline — something that's hopeless in the modern car. A commanding view over the hood is easily embraced, particularly when the entire body twists in protest to its infusion of modern power.

There's a mechanical candor here that's a product of the successful melding of old and new. The best of the old remains — styling, visibility, blunt manual simplicity. But the things that too often prevent us from embracing old cars — worthless control feel, hopeless reliability, the stink of fuel — are distinctly and thankfully absent. Instead there's a modern, fuel-injected, supercharged lump that's ready, at any moment, to twist off this car's rear axle. And it's linked to your right foot via a cable that's indifferent to spinning wheels, yaw rate or steering angle — just like God intended.

In other words, it is good.

It needs to be said again, Bitchen Camaros.

[AZhitman]

...and only one will be worth a quarter-million bucks someday.

The other will be recycled into soup cans, irrigation pipe and tennis shoes.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

The 2 posts on this page by TMS are on point. Well done sir.

[AZhitman]

While they were trying to regurgitate a classic car design, they could have at least used the 70-73 model...

Blasphemy perhaps, but I've always thought the split-bumper Camaro was one of the most gorgeous designs in automotive history.

[themadscientist]

The seventies were a travesty, but the split bumper Camaro was a rare pearl amongst the swine. I am a 60's Camaro guy, but the SB gets a tip of the hat.

[Bubba1]

The seventies were a travesty, but the split bumper Camaro was a rare pearl amongst the swine. I am a 60's Camaro guy, but the SB gets a tip of the hat.

I think we're all in agreement about the 70.5 split bumper . gorgeous design.

[BusyBadger]

I think we're all in agreement about the 70.5 split bumper . gorgeous design.

For a Camaro, yeah...but I'll still take the 70-73 Firebird design over it. Most kids I knew growing up wanted what Burt Reynolds was driving in Smokey and the Bandit, I wanted what David Carradine drove in Cannonball (at the start of the race, not the finish).

Part of me is glad Pontiac got axed so I don't have to suffer through what GM might have done to make a recycled-retro T/A.

[MinisterofDOOM]

The split bumper is definitely hot. It's my dad's favorite. I love it myself, but there's something about the headlight design that just doesn't QUITE work for me. Earlier versions (pre plastic bumper and square lenses) definitely worked better. But the narrow grille with big headlight pods just don't flow together. The first-gen nose was so much cleaner. Simple but iconic.

Later '70s Camaros make my eyes bleed, though.



But...it's still better looking than the Mustang II.

For a Camaro, yeah...but I'll still take the 70-73 Firebird design over it. ]

I've never really liked the Firebird. The Smokey and the Bandit TA was always pretty fugly to me, to be honest. I hate brown, I hate gold, and I hate flamboyant. The '70s Firebird's rectangular headlights were just as out-of-place on the sweeping bodywork as the Camaro's oddly placed round ones.
Last-gen Firebirds were completely abhorrent. Just absolutely miserable. So much ugly, pointless, globular-shaped generic curving plastic. The fog lights are twelve miles back in the nose cone. And those hoodscoops. And the popup headlights going about their business as though it's still 1985 (some horrible, nightmarish, melting Dali Hell version of 1985).
Early-90s ones were not AS bad...but I could never figure out WHAT ON EARTH was supposed to be going on with the goofy plastic s*** at the bottoms of the doors. "Aero" trim as bad as the worst ebay civic bodykit.
The only Firebird that I found remotely attractive was the first-gen. But, even then, I liked the Camaro better.

[AZhitman]

The "Bandit" Firebird ('77) was sexy, but only because of its icon status. I'll own one someday.

AFAIAC, there hasn't been a Camaro since the SB that was attractive (although, I recently saw a pristine '87 IROC and thought, "Hmmm..."). Again, just for pure nostalgia (and appreciation for a car that survived somehow).

[krash]

Split Bumper FTW. Look at this freakin thing, whats drag racing?



MOD, sometimes I wonder how you find joy in life

[AZhitman]

[PapaSmurf2k3]

I actually like the early Camaros and the 80s ones the best. I probably like the 80s firebirds the best too. Knight rider style. Then again, I DO like bandit as well.

[themadscientist]

If the devil drove a car, that would be a good choice.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Split Bumper FTW. Look at this freakin thing, whats drag racing?



MOD, sometimes I wonder how you find joy in life

Holy crap! There's more rubber on one corner of that car than all four of mine!

[AZhitman]

LOVE the old ponycars done up in Trans-Am style... GOD I'll bet that thing is evil.

[Bubba1]

LOVE the old ponycars done up in Trans-Am style... GOD I'll bet that thing is evil.

ditto. My favorite pony cars:

1. 70.5 split bumper Z28
2. 1970 Pontiac Transam SD455
3. 1977 Pontiac transam Bandit (iconic) but not with an automatic like movie car
4. 1971-2 AMC JAvelin (Mark Donahue's #6 PEnske trans-am race car) SEXXXY!

[PapaSmurf2k3]

Speaking of AMC... when did they stop making good cars?

...cos the AMX is saweeet.

[Bubba1]

Speaking of AMC... when did they stop making good cars?

...cos the AMX is saweeet.

IMHO, 1973. the first year the Javelin AMX, like the other muscle cars, started getting choked with HP sapping emissions stuff.

[audtatious]

Always like the Camaro from the movie Better Off Dead.....

I had a '67 and would love to have another one. Maybe a '68...The again i would not complain about any '67-70 model.

[Razi]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Me_eLrG0ro[/youtube]

<3

[MinisterofDOOM]

That. Sounds. AMAZING.

At about 17 seconds...the tires just can't take it. Puts down a patch through both turns and it doesn't even matter that it has no traction.

[Jesda]

I was at the Chicago Auto Show years ago when the Charger debuted. The model standing on the platform said during her presentation something along the lines of, "But is there really anything wrong with a sedan named Charger?"
I yelled, "YES!"


The Charger is a very good family car, but I'll take a 300.

[AZhitman]

They can take that "Imported from Detroit" nonsense and shove it up their overpaid arses.

NOT cool, Chrysler. http://fxn.ws/Vq6vqy

[C-Kwik]

Greg, I highly doubt that story provides all the relevant details. From what I can gather, it appears other workers who have been caught drinking or getting high in a similar manner were only given 30 day suspensions. If true, this likely provides the underlying basis for the arbitrator's decision as it was inconsistent with other incidents with the only effective difference being the public scrutiny. So the problem may ultimately be Chrysler's history in its level of punishment in such scenarios. To be clear this is merely what I pieced together, but its kind of hard to find a lot of sources as google is flooded with conservative sites presenting the same story in much the same way.

Now don't get me wrong. I don't have a problem with these guys as well as the other offenders being fired. But I'd also be curious about the statistics of how many workers who have been previously suspended for similar infractions have repeated the same offense and what the company's recourse was in those cases as well.

[AZhitman]

I don't disagree, Chrysler was clearly held hostage by the arbitrators (and ultimately, a bunch of goon attorneys).

It's bad P.R., but it stems from a culture... it's the corporate culture I have an issue with. As someone who deals with EEOC and terminating employees, I know they were over a barrel.

[C-Kwik]

I don't disagree, Chrysler was clearly held hostage by the arbitrators (and ultimately, a bunch of goon attorneys).

Arbitrators should be impartial. While there is always a possibility of bias, I would think many are retired public servants (i.e. judges). I'll agree that they have goon attorneys, but so do Chrysler....its a fair fight.

[Jesda]

And the loser is: Chrysler's customers

[AZhitman]

Fair fight, for certain. And irrelevant to the outcome, which remains a load of crap.

It's like watching two bad guys in a movie duke it out - You don't care WHO wins, because they both suck.

And, as Jesda says: The customers lose.