Andrew Sullivan, and the First GOP Debate

[heliochrome85]

Its no big secret that im a huge fan of mr. andrew sullivan. His story is pretty interesting to say the least. he used to write for The Atlantic Magazine, but has since moved to The Daily Beast. As an outspoken critic of the current GOP, as well as the Democrats, and president obama, i find his viewpoint to be much more aligned to my own. in any case, here he is covering the first GOP debate.
http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com ... ebate.html

more about A.S.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Sullivan

[IBCoupe]

9.59 pm. Romney is the clear leader here - head and shoulders above the rest. Bachmann wins the expectations game. Cain wasn't outstanding or novel enough to stand out. Pawlenty was just dreadful - failing on almost every level. Gingrich was incoherent and nasty. Santorum was his usual doctrinaire self, and utterly unappealing. Ron Paul had his moments, but the novelty is wearing thin.

This was a very very very premature event. But it will cement Romney's solidifying position as the leader of the pack - and reveal how few of the people on this stage will be much of a danger to him. But he does still come across as pandery. The Bruins line? Seriously? Oh well.

I want to like Mitt Romney! Really, I do!

[Cold_Zero]

'Novelty is wearing thin.' I guess that is how you dismiss the only guy that sets himself from the rest of the pack with Paleo-conservitism. While I think it would be a hard hill to climb, I really like Ron Paul. I love how he was asked about Imminent Domain and Mitt Romney basically parroted Paul's comments and then went on about Energy Policy. The reason why we are talking about some of these issues is because of Ron Paul. While he is not polished with the message, which probably hurts it, I think he is spot on about many issues. His comment about which person on stage he would consider as a VP/Cabinet position was hilarious. “I haven’t even asked them what they think of the Fed.”

[Cold_Zero]

There were a bunch of huggy/kissy moments during the debates and plenty of pandering. I nearly vomited when Pawlenty kissed up to Palin crowd or his comments about the NHL Stanley Cup finals, and when they were falling over themselves to be complement each other.

[IBCoupe]

They know how much of an uphill climb it'll be to 2012 with this field. Whoever wins this battle can't afford to go against Pbama having been ripped to shreds by a gang of clowns.

[Cold_Zero]

I see utterly no value in winning (at any cost) when you have sacrificed all of your values. It is kind of like Butler University winning the NCAA tournament by getting rid of the ‘Butler way’ and emulating a program like UConn’s. The ‘Butler way’ is the thing that got them to the finals (in twice) in the first place, not acting like ‘the other guy.’ Look at where this mentality has gotten us in the past 11 years. Republican fiscal irresponsibility and trampling over civil liberties are two things that come to my mind immediately. I realize it is not like the Republicans have had help in these matters, but the madness has to stop. I don’t think it is good enough for ‘our guy’ just to win we have been through that with GW Bush, there has to be something more. Maybe I should be happy that since the 2008 Republican debates at the Reagan Library, where Tim Russert openly mocked Ron Paul during the debate, all of the Republican Candidates are now talking about/or at least paying lip service to the Constitution, Limited Government and withdrawing from Iraq/Afghanistan. F’ you Tim.

[Cold_Zero]

BTW,
I am an Iron Maiden fan, not ICP.

[IBCoupe]

Bud, the ONLY reason Republicans agree with Paul is because Obama is in office.

[Cold_Zero]

Kind of sad, that neoconservatism has taken over concepts from paleoconservatism and classical liberalism and is running/ruining the party.

[stebo0728]

2 Things about Paul. First of all, it seems sometimes his followers are his worst enemies.

Another thing where I think he's off base, and this isnt terrible, but his idea that a weakened US dollar is detrimental to the US economy. I've heard good argument as to why, at least for our current economy, a weakened US dollar could be a positive. Ill try to lay this out as well as I understand it. First, whats our biggest problem? Unemployment right? What happens when the US dollar weakens? More and more imports cease, as it becomes more cost effective to produce domestic products, PLUS, exports of domestic goods also increase. This helps create more jobs, as the demand for domestic goods increases. Also, think of this. China has taken a page out of the Reagan playbook. We destroyed the USSR just by helping them spend themselves into oblivion. Now China is trying the same with us. If a weakened US dollar were terrible for the US, China would not continue to help keep the dollar strong by pumping more of their own money into our economy.

[Cold_Zero]

2 Things about Paul. First of all, it seems sometimes his followers are his worst enemies.

What is that suppose to mean? Because he and his supporters dont fit your Necon world view? Keep supporting the lame old candidates that the Republican establishment keeps putting up year after year. Keep lapping up the idea that in order to be 'conservative' you have to follow their idea that you have to win at any cost and sell out your core principles. Keep casting your vote for anyone other than 'xxxxx' (in this case Obama) and scaring others to do so as well. And keep trashing the Paleo-conservatives. I hope all this is not what you mean. If you can't tell I am sick and tired of neo-conservatives.

[IBCoupe]

2 Things about Paul. First of all, it seems sometimes his followers are his worst enemies.

What is that suppose to mean? Because he and his supporters dont fit your Necon world view? Keep supporting the lame old candidates that the Republican establishment keeps putting up year after year. Keep lapping up the idea that in order to be 'conservative' you have to follow their idea that you have to win at any cost and sell out your core principles. Keep casting your vote for anyone other than 'xxxxx' (in this case Obama) and scaring others to do so as well. And keep trashing the Paleo-conservatives. I hope all this is not what you mean. If you can't tell I am sick and tired of neo-conservatives.

You could probably view the problem the other way. Ron Paul's main problem is that the Republican "base" is its own enemy. No need to take offense, Bud

I respect Ron Paul, but his nomination to the Presidency on a major ticket would spell certain doom for that Party. Because he's got such amazing ideological integrity, it's really hard to build a coalition of support around him. There are people who don't want to drastically cut back on the military. There are people who don't want to eliminate the USDE. No matter what party Ron Paul runs in, because he refuses to compromise with <I>anyone</I>, he will lose.

So, in my opinion, Ron Paul's biggest problem is Ron Paul.

[Cold_Zero]

I would agree with your first assertion. Party politics are centered around winning. So I would agree with you.

[IBCoupe]

But not the second? You think Ron Paul is willing to compromise enough to be elected President? Or do you think his support is widespread enough for him to win independent of the parties he would otherwise have to align with?

[Cold_Zero]

Realistically, I dont think he has a shot in hell of winning the nomination. Sometimes your purpose in the process is not to win, but to craft or influence the discussion/debate. I realize that in this day and age of cult of personality politics and narcissistic self glorification that this job may be looked down upon. I happen to think it is more important to frame the discussion and influence the debate.

[stebo0728]

No insult was intended to any particular Paul supporter. Where I'm coming from is the Paul supporters that get virally offensive in forums and talk shows, in defense of the man, in many instances taking his moderately libertarian views, and expanding their representation of them into fargone libertarian views. Its like for every supporter he gains, that supporter pissed off 2 others about him. But thats a generality, not all Paul supporters are that way of course.

[Cold_Zero]

Well if you are worried about that, people taking your message and running with it (the wrong way) then you best stay out of politics. While I agree it is not right to take his message and craft it into their own, people should rely on a candidate’s book, website or listen to a radio program that will air his interviews in whole to get the message. Not necessarily relying on the words of others to get the candidate’s message across. If we where solely relying on that medium then the words of the two ladies on the (DC) Metro is the only information that you need to know about President Obama. ‘He has such a clean spirit.’ Wow.. what does that mean?

[AZhitman]

Good discussion.

And I agree with A.S.'s commentary, for the most part.... Bex and I watched the debate, and it was surprisingly interesting (I was prepared to be bored).

I think the fawning over MB is premature. I think she did well, but as Maher said, "...compared to who? Palin?" I don't think she's POTUS material - might be a wise running mate choice, though. Politics aside, I *DO* find her colossally hot.

Santorum and Pawlenty are far too socially conservative (and inflexible) for me. Besides, Pawlenty strikes me as a big-talking puss. Romney pointed it out plainly.

Gingrich is argumentative and strikes me as an arrogant boob, and his closet full of skeletons will (and should) derail any sane consideration of his candidacy.

Paul, I like, if only for his firebrand style. I appreciate his position on DOMA (get the gov't OUT of the marriage business) and DADT. However, he said some things that simply came off as unrealistic, such as his vacuum-creating military base closure ideas. He really lost me when he discussed troop withdrawals - if you're not interested in what your Generals have to say, then you're not Presidential material. Thanks for playing. Go be weird in Texas.

Cain? No. He's got a lassaiz-faire attitude about details that simply can't be overlooked. I get what he was getting at on the Muslim issue, but it took Gingrich to explain it - and even THAT was insufficient. So, find another way home, pizza-boy.

Romney's intensity and focus are impressive - He's the guy I'd want staring down the leader of an unfriendly country. I'm concerned about him being inflexible on social issues, which, as Paul said, are none of the gov'ts business. I like his head-on approach and willingness to call out the current Admin's failures. Aaaaand, I'll go out on a limb here and say I might take issue with his faith and how it might impact policy.

I'm with Chris Christie right now, in that NONE of the candidates really get me excited for 2012.

It's a fractured field, and they're gonna have to debate head-to-head, if only to shake out the truth as to how committed they are to their ideologies. I'll be looking for a moderate, socially-liberal, fiscally-conservative candidate with some Libertarian streaks.

[Cold_Zero]

Paul, I like, if only for his firebrand style. I appreciate his position on DOMA (get the gov't OUT of the marriage business) and DADT. However, he said some things that simply came off as unrealistic, such as his vacuum-creating military base closure ideas. He really lost me when he discussed troop withdrawals - if you're not interested in what your Generals have to say, then you're not Presidential material. Thanks for playing. Go be weird in Texas.

I think the comment about listening to the generals was made for two reasons. First, most people, like Pawlenty, just give the "I would listen to my generals" as a pat answer. While this line may have worked in 2004 and 2008 for past candidates, we as voters should expect more from our candidates. It also seemed liked a practiced line that was evident that the candidate had given the issue really no thought. Score one for Paul for actually trying to parse through the issue. While one may not agree with his approach, he at least thought it through. Secondly, who sets the Military’s’ doctrine? The Commander in Chief. Paul’s comment was probably meant to re-enforce that is the President that is the head of the Military and sets the Doctrine and High Level military objectives. Not a Unified Commander. While any President would be a fool to not consult with his Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Secretaries of the Military (Def, Army, Navy…) and his Unified Commanders (yes they report directly to the President in times of war) on such matters, I don’t think that was what Paul was getting at. Remember, it is ultimately the civilian government that runs the Military, not the other way around. For what it is worth.

[Cold_Zero]

I honestly think we need to evaluate this country’s military commitments. We still have WWII , Korean Conflict, Cold War and Global War on Terror commitments. I think we are over extended in our commitments and there is a money cost involved with them. Also, I suspect the rationale for keeping all the foreign bases aboard is to prop up the Neoconservative view that we need to be spreading the concept of freedom at the end of the gun barrel and in some people’s view ‘Empire building.’
When you look at the war in Iraq and the bombing of Libya, it appears that causes of these wars appear to be the settling of old grudges.

[AZhitman]

NO question there... or perhaps even a desperate attempt to appeal to the pro-military Right (which I hope I'm *way* off-base on).

[IBCoupe]

I would probably be very tempted by a Romney/Paul ticket. As a religious minority, I don't have any problems with Romney's faith.

[szh]

I would probably be very tempted by a Romney/Paul ticket. As a religious minority, I don't have any problems with Romney's faith.

Same here .. on both points ...

Although I do wish that this country could find a way to make a woman electable for highest office too. Even "backward" (i.e., women bashing Islamic) countries like Pakistan and Bangladesh have succeeded in doing that.

Z

[AZhitman]

I'd be a little hesitant to prop up those two places as "examples"... That might be a case for keeping 'em in the kitchen!

[srellim234]

They're good examples of countries we consider repressive towards women willing or able to bridge that gap. Yet we hold ourselves up as more enlightened and open-minded?

For countries and quality of leadership I'd be more inclined to use Margaret Thatcher in England and Golda Meir in Israel as examples.

[Seanboy]

Wow ??
Imma newbie !
Least to Nissan and NICO .
Worked on a few Datsun's and Z-24 Nissan hard bodie's in my day as Sissy had a 69 Datsun Sporster back in the day .
But Im really just an American Muscle Jethro with a Pedigree in Air Cooled V.W.
My V.W. forum would call this post a Political rant ?? LMAO
I like livin on the edge so Im just about this close to being 86'd by bunch of liberal idiot's .
Ahhh ?
Ok I will just spitt it out there !
I actually know as in person a future Presidential candidate .
Along with the family .
You could say we share the same burial ground's .
Love Ron Paul but too no fault of his own he just come's off like cold coffee .
Have high hope's for his Kidd tho .
The Tea party candidate's have not surfaced as of yett .
I beleive they will soon .
I base my Opinion on my own life experience due to the fact that from birth I have been in the Political grinder .
In other word's ?
My life has been so bizzare , so many go figure's in it that I am certain it will come to pass ?
That and Granny was a School Marm who's closest freind's were History Proffessor's .
I would like to tell you that I have inside info ?
I dont and I do ?
I only have circumstantial evidence that these individual's will runn all tho I have threatend to Water Board certain individual's for, more definitive answer's .LMAO
They wont speak of it .
How ever I can tell you from personal experience that these are good folk's as in the best of the best .
Good American's , educated , have root's back to Colonial time's .
Anyhow more pressing issue is My Roomie's Q45 Nissan Infinity .
I could use a Manual or any info as to a cross reference manual for this car .
Any info on the Car would be great ?
I build some pretty awsome machines but not much on Smogg car's as I have a 20 count rule on Vaccum hose's , wich Im willing to break for this occassion .
Apologize for the Grammar as Granny didnt spend much time on the write-ing part of my education .
Guess she was to freaked out on teaching me to cover my back side .
Saw a post in here earlier on fire arm's and who carry's ?
I live in the People's Communist Republic of Californication ? ( No comment on carrying anything not even a box cutter )
See Calif Penal code : 12020 < basically outlaw's pocket knive's the Bow and Arrow, Ice pick's etc not just for carry but to own or have in your possession in your house.
Aside from that I will leave you with my fondest qoute .
" If communist were truly interested in protecting the collective they would all commit suicide "
Author Unknown
Sincerely Seanboy / AKA Cowboy

[IBCoupe]

What just happened?

[AZhitman]

...thought diamondJ30 might have made a comeback.

Anyhow, IB, good point on the faith position, I hadn't thought of that.

[szh]

They're good examples of countries we consider repressive towards women willing or able to bridge that gap. Yet we hold ourselves up as more enlightened and open-minded?

Yes, that was my point!

For countries and quality of leadership I'd be more inclined to use Margaret Thatcher in England and Golda Meir in Israel as examples.

Sure! Including others in other countries more recently too.

I was not commenting necessarily on the quality of the leadership - as you noted, I was merely pointing out that some countries, that we consider as being anti-women, are indeed able to make those choices for women to lead. In the highest offices. Yet we are not!

Z

[srellim234]

Absent Obama I really think Hillary would have been the one.

Years ago I was really hoping that the Republicans would put together a ticket of Elizabeth Dole and Colin Powell in either order but there's no way the extremists in the party would have allowed it to happen. I would have voted for that ticket in a heartbeat.