American Muslims Ask, Will We Ever Belong?

[heliochrome85]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/06/us/06 ... ss&emc=rss

[mattblancarte]

Not buying it. Federal law, state law, and local laws all abide by a code of non-violence. If you hurt or kill someone, enjoy your stay behind bars.

In a handful Islamic countries, violence is encouraged and endorsed by many leaders.

The moral fabric of this nation allows them a safe stay, as long as they remain non-violent.

Now, if they're up in arms about some cuckoo pastor from Florida... Boo hoo. If the pastor starts instructing his flock to commit violent acts, he goes to jail.

There's some redundancy in my response, but I wanted to make the distinction clear.

Some American Muslims said they were especially on edge as the anniversary of 9/11 approaches. The pastor of a small church in Florida has promised to burn a pile of Korans that day. Muslim leaders are telling their followers that the stunt has been widely condemned by Christian and other religious groups and should be ignored. But they said some young American Muslims were questioning how they could simply sit by and watch the promised desecration.

What a suggestive question (in bold)... Are they implying that someone should take up arms against the church, or use force of some kind to stop the book burning?

All Americans (Mulsim, Christian, FSM) should understand that their beliefs will not be universally accepted, and they are fair game to criticism and mockery.

[heliochrome85]

Not buying it. Federal law, state law, and local laws all abide by a code of non-violence. If you hurt or kill someone, enjoy your stay behind bars.

In a handful Islamic countries, violence is encouraged and endorsed by many leaders.

The moral fabric of this nation allows them a safe stay, as long as they remain non-violent.

Now, if they're up in arms about some cuckoo pastor from Florida... Boo hoo. If the pastor starts instructing his flock to commit violent acts, he goes to jail.

There's some redundancy in my response, but I wanted to make the distinction clear.

Some American Muslims said they were especially on edge as the anniversary of 9/11 approaches. The pastor of a small church in Florida has promised to burn a pile of Korans that day. Muslim leaders are telling their followers that the stunt has been widely condemned by Christian and other religious groups and should be ignored. But they said some young American Muslims were questioning how they could simply sit by and watch the promised desecration.

What a suggestive question (in bold)... Are they implying that someone should take up arms against the church, or use force of some kind to stop the book burning?

All Americans (Mulsim, Christian, FSM) should understand that their beliefs will not be universally accepted, and they are fair game to criticism and mockery.

there is a distinction between the way things SHOULD be and the way things are. unless you have been personally attacked like I have, you have no basis for your argument. i am no less american than you are. why should i live in relative fear because of the way my religion is portrayed by the biggest outlet of news in this country?

[mattblancarte]

I'm genuinely sorry to hear that you were the victim of an attack. Did you report it to any authorities? If so, what happened?

When I was a kid I was physically attacked for being white. Racism in my neighborhood and elementary school at the time (Oakbrook, WA) was so bad that my parents home schooled my brothers and I for 6 months, then moved.

I never suggested you were less American than myself.

You're right, there is a distinction between the law (how things should or shouldn't be) and the actions people take (the way things are). If laws are broken, penalties are enforced when possible.

You shouldn't have to live in fear. I agree.

[heliochrome85]

I'm genuinely sorry to hear that you were the victim of an attack. Did you report it to any authorities? If so, what happened?

When I was a kid I was physically attacked for being white. Racism in my neighborhood and elementary school at the time (Oakbrook, WA) was so bad that my parents home schooled my brothers and I for 6 months, then moved.

I never suggested you were less American than myself.

You're right, there is a distinction between the law (how things should or shouldn't be) and the actions people take (the way things are). If laws are broken, penalties are enforced when possible.

You shouldn't have to live in fear. I agree.

FBI was involved and things were resolved quietly. I try not to take things personally, but I can sympathise with the views presented in the article. the reality is that I really cant plan long term in this country. This year, our holiday commemorating the end of our month of fasting will be September 10th. I dont need to tell you the level of planning involved in order for us to pray and celebrate safely. This country is rapidly becoming a xenophobic one, and at the expense of the very people who pump your gas, cook your food, and save your life at the hospital.

[mattblancarte]

Glad to hear that you were able to resolve that incident. Hate to hear about violent crime.

I agree. I think racism, xenophobia, etc. stems from ignorance and anchored emotions. In this case, post 9/11 stress syndrome. I can sympathize with people wishing for peace and acceptance, but I draw the line at wanting to silence mockery or criticism.

The problem is, bigotry is nothing new here in the US. Consider US history during the 1800's. How about 50-60 years ago? Furthermore, bigotry isn't isolated to the US. It lives on every corner of the globe.

It's hard to engage in this conversation because religion is a banned topic, but if you're looking to why Christians (I don't subscribe to religion, so don't count me in there) are intolerant of Muslims just consider history. You can also take a look at The Bible and The Qur'an (I assume you already have).

[vikesfankevin1986]

I will mention religion because that is what this issue is about. Throughout history Christians have been very intolerant. They can't even get a long with either other as far as religion goes. Muslims however have always been and I think still are, a lot more tolerant than Christians. Before the Crusades, Muslims did not even have the term jihad or holy war. Christians and Jews were able to live peacefully in Muslim lands and were not bothered because they were "believers of the book."
Personally, all the Muslims I have spoken with or been friends with have always been very respectful and nice people. They are also very tolerant, way more so than Christians. I haven't had a Muslim question me for being agnostic but Christians and Americans generally do. Muslims also appear to take their faith more seriously than American Christians do (this is in general.) After all Islam does mean submission to God and they are in fact very peacefull. I have experienced racism from black people for being white, but never from a Muslim for being white or not being Muslim. Because of their deep devotion to their religion, I can see why they would be upset about how Americans are reacting to a mosque being built...but just because they have the right to, doesn't mean it is a good idea to put a mosque there.
But to answer the question...No...not until Christians and Muslims can make peace and come to an agreement. Not until religious leaders can do this and convince people of it. And even if religious leaders did start preaching peace with Islam, your average ignorant Americans would never listen to them. Things won't change for a long time...if ever. It's sad but life is a b****...then you die...

[n00b240]

/begin threadjack
@Vikesfankevin. That sig is GOLD
/end threadjack

Things won't change for a long time...if ever. It's sad but life is a b****...then you die...

I agree, it took the negro quite some time before things got better. And things aren't gone in all facets. I would expect the same for Muslims. Although I hope it wont take as long (to cop vfk) ...because then I'll be dead....

[dusred]

When the Catholics (mostly the Irish) started flocking to America back in the early 1800's they were treated the same way the Muslims are being treated now. I assume it was because of fear that the Pope would try to overrun the nation with Catholics and then take it over. It's interesting how History repeats it's self. I suspect in the future Muslims will be accepted just as Catholics are now. Us Americans don't like change but one thing about us is that we have always made wrongs right. The way Muslims are socially unaccepted isn't right. They should be respected and accepted just like anyone else.

[IBCoupe]

Us Americans don't like change but one thing about us is that we have always made wrongs right.

[cough]Reparations.[/cough]

I kid. Had to get that in there. I get the feeling you meant to say that we recognize that we've done wrong and we do our darndest to avoid repeating that wrong. That's not the same as making a wrong right.

And I'd say that analysis is spot on, if applied to this situation - the American government has not been involved in discrimination (though, we'll see what happens after November).

[stebo0728]

One thing I'd like to add to this, is I believe some of the islamaphobia stems from the perception of Islamic cultural hi-jacking that seems to be occuring in Europe. Americans seem afraid that the same sort of thing is going to happen here. I dont particularly see that happening myself, but lets think about the only way it could. The same way its happening there. Europeans have quickly subscribed to western culture, which calls for avid use of birth control, and the family unit has reduced from minimum of 8 kids, to maximum of 2. We are aborting children left and right, sometimes for rational reasons, often times for irrational reasons. The simple fact of numbers, if western cultured people arent multipling, or are multiplying in vastly smaller numbers than mid-eastern cultured people, theres no way to NOT expect the distribution to shift. And the more population tips toward a majority for islamic people, the easier it is for their culture to begin to be mainstreamed. You look at some of the concessions europe is making to islamic peoples, and Americans see that and fear it here. It may be blown out of proportion, misrepresented, or what-not, but I believe that plays into it somewhat.

[IBCoupe]

Well, the counter I provide to those fears (and you've said you don't necessarily buy into them, so this may not be directed at you) is this: so what?

If the population demographics change, what happens? We don't become any less American, because our country is not defined by our appearance or our religious beliefs. Constitutional limitations on government power prevent any of these irrational fears from coming true. Is it possible that the Consitution could be amended to allow it to happen? Sure, it's possible. It's possible that weight loss pills will lead to human mutations and the rise of vampires that will conquer the world and wipe out humanity as we know it (remember that Sliders episode?), too. But is it really rational to worry about things that are possible, though incredibly improbable?

[heliochrome85]

But is it really rational to worry about things that are possible, though incredibly improbable?

like the possibility that the president was born outside the US and that his administration is hiding it via a fake birth certificate? what about the president may be a secret muslim? or even worse, an atheist?

[IBCoupe]

Yep. Like those things. If your belief is such that there's a loophole that allows you to think it, no matter what evidence is produced to satisfy you, let's all agree that this sort of belief makes you irrational.

Imagine that Zombie Jesus were to show up and hand you President Obama's birth certificate and a recording of all those prayers made to him by President Obama. If your initial reaction in that case would be, "Well that's awfully convenient. Maybe they're fakes. And wasn't Jesus white? I think this is all one big conspiracy," we can probably comfortably call you a nutjob.

[stebo0728]

Yep. Like those things. If your belief is such that there's a loophole that allows you to think it, no matter what evidence is produced to satisfy you, let's all agree that this sort of belief makes you irrational.

Imagine that Zombie Jesus were to show up and hand you President Obama's birth certificate and a recording of all those prayers made to him by President Obama. If your initial reaction in that case would be, "Well that's awfully convenient. Maybe they're fakes. And wasn't Jesus white? I think this is all one big conspiracy," we can probably comfortably call you a nutjob.

Did you take your meds this morning?

[heliochrome85]

the issue is that when you have major news media outlets, and political factions who use that sort of irrational thinking to make millions/billions, and advance their agenda, who gets hurt? you cant argue with DERP, and unfortunately, the DERP level is exceptionally high this election cycle.

[stebo0728]

This next bit here may sound off, and its possible that I have no real way to elegantly explain it, but PEOPLE in general no matter what their faith, emotional stance, or what not, just HAVE to have something to be AGAINST. It just so happens that islam and muslims are that thing right now, stemming from fresh memories of violent acts by radicals wearing the muslim banner. In time this will wane, and it will actually be for the better that it occured, at least for muslim people in general, not for the individuals it effects now of course, but once some new "threat" or "problem" is found and gains the focus of the global populous, then the outrage toward islam will die, and hopefully this will coincide with a real upheaval of the radicals BY the moderates, and islam will finally be able to both BE and BE ACCEPTED AS just another of the possible options of free and peaceful religions practice. I dont think the words islam, muslim, koran, terrorlst, or the like, will be buzz words in the next couple generations. Well at least terrorlst will no longer be associated with islam anyway, some other new or old faction will pick up the mantle of world domination and we will be back to square one with them.

[heliochrome85]

This next bit here may sound off, and its possible that I have no real way to elegantly explain it, but PEOPLE in general no matter what their faith, emotional stance, or what not, just HAVE to have something to be AGAINST. It just so happens that islam and muslims are that thing right now, stemming from fresh memories of violent acts by radicals wearing the muslim banner. In time this will wane, and it will actually be for the better that it occured, at least for muslim people in general, not for the individuals it effects now of course, but once some new "threat" or "problem" is found and gains the focus of the global populous, then the outrage toward islam will die, and hopefully this will coincide with a real upheaval of the radicals BY the moderates, and islam will finally be able to both BE and BE ACCEPTED AS just another of the possible options of free and peaceful religions practice. I dont think the words islam, muslim, koran, terrorlst, or the like, will be buzz words in the next couple generations. Well at least terrorlst will no longer be associated with islam anyway, some other new or old faction will pick up the mantle of world domination and we will be back to square one with them.

why is that? and how long will people allow themselves to be manipuated via their irrational fears, before they snap against the people they fear most?

[stebo0728]

This next bit here may sound off, and its possible that I have no real way to elegantly explain it, but PEOPLE in general no matter what their faith, emotional stance, or what not, just HAVE to have something to be AGAINST. It just so happens that islam and muslims are that thing right now, stemming from fresh memories of violent acts by radicals wearing the muslim banner. In time this will wane, and it will actually be for the better that it occured, at least for muslim people in general, not for the individuals it effects now of course, but once some new "threat" or "problem" is found and gains the focus of the global populous, then the outrage toward islam will die, and hopefully this will coincide with a real upheaval of the radicals BY the moderates, and islam will finally be able to both BE and BE ACCEPTED AS just another of the possible options of free and peaceful religions practice. I dont think the words islam, muslim, koran, terrorlst, or the like, will be buzz words in the next couple generations. Well at least terrorlst will no longer be associated with islam anyway, some other new or old faction will pick up the mantle of world domination and we will be back to square one with them.

why is that? and how long will people allow themselves to be manipuated via their irrational fears, before they snap against the people they fear most?

People hold irrational fears by nature, theres no way around it.

As far as manipulation, I dont know, only time will tell, and I could be totally wrong and off base, but thats just my opinion of future relations. I suppose the worst outcome could be another genocidal holocaust type of outlash, but people on the whole cant orchestrate that, it would require a government with a military to do that, Id like to think America is structured as to not be capable of such, and I would like to think we would stand up to anyone else who tried.

[IBCoupe]

Having something to be against is certainly understandable. To a certain extent, I'm against just about everything you and I say. It's a lot more stimulating than being for any given thing.

However understandable it could be that people oppose Muslims for no good reason, that opposition is no more rational or reasonable.

[WDRacing]

No is the simplest answer I can come up with...sad but true imho. NOTE I said opinion!!!

Then again, people in general hate and argue over more things then just religion. Yes Muslims get a lot of ugly attention, but there are race issues across the board as well. Man will never truly get along with fellow man. That's been fact since primates figured out how to use their thumbs

WD

[heliochrome85]

No is the simplest answer I can come up with...sad but true imho. NOTE I said opinion!!!

Then again, people in general hate and argue over more things then just religion. Yes Muslims get a lot of ugly attention, but there are race issues across the board as well. Man will never truly get along with fellow man. That's been fact since primates figured out how to use their thumbs

WD

man, do i want to watch some RollerDerby right now. thats some anger release right there.

[WDRacing]

Remember that movie Roller Ball with James Caan? Showing your age Helio

[heliochrome85]

Remember that movie Roller Ball with James Caan? Showing your age Helio

im just an old soul. 25 going on 58. god knows this grey hair is for a reason.

[szh]

You have hair?

Cool!

Z

[vikesfankevin1986]

People should watch star trek and try and be more like Vulcans. Try and supress emotions and be more logical

[n00b240]

People should watch star trek and try and be more like Vulcans. Try and supress emotions and be more logical

LOL isnt that what "lower your gaze" is for?

"Oh shat I see a muslim pops"

"Just look down at the ground son, pretend there is nobody there"

[AZhitman]

I guess my question for Tariq is this:

Since 99% of the Americans I know are generally accepting, kind, thoughtful people, and those who would go out of their way to verbally/physically attack someone of the Muslim faith because of that faith are infinitesimally small in number, what is it about what you're (the hypothetical you) doing that's arousing such a backlash?

What I mean to say is, aside from going to mosque and having a nice tan (like all of us sexy middle easterners), what is it that makes you a "target"?

Remember what I've always said about people who wear their religion / sexual preference / race / political affiliation / etc on their sleeve? If the FIRST thing I learn about you upon meeting you is that you're a Muslim / homosexual / Republican / Atheist / Dominican / schizophrenic, then YOU, sir, have a serious problem. Not me.

I prefer to get to know the person, not the affiliation / affliction / affectation.

Woo look at me go with the trifecta of alliteration...

[heliochrome85]

I guess my question for Tariq is this:

Since 99% of the Americans I know are generally accepting, kind, thoughtful people, and those who would go out of their way to verbally/physically attack someone of the Muslim faith because of that faith are infinitesimally small in number, what is it about what you're (the hypothetical you) doing that's arousing such a backlash?

What I mean to say is, aside from going to mosque and having a nice tan (like all of us sexy middle easterners), what is it that makes you a "target"?

Remember what I've always said about people who wear their religion / sexual preference / race / political affiliation / etc on their sleeve? If the FIRST thing I learn about you upon meeting you is that you're a Muslim / homosexual / Republican / Atheist / Dominican / schizophrenic, then YOU, sir, have a serious problem. Not me.

I prefer to get to know the person, not the affiliation / affliction / affectation.

Woo look at me go with the trifecta of alliteration...

accents, names, and general appearances go along way to place the target on your back. lest we forget how many Sikhs were targetted after 9/11 because theywere presumed to be Muslim.

[AZhitman]

Understood.

With that being the case, none of those paint you as Muslim. They only give insight as to your heritage.

I'd hazard a guess that a lot of this is overblown fears in response to overblown anger in response to overblown reporting.

(side note: There were a TON of Sikhs in my old hometown in MS... I hardly see any out here... strange.)