American Muslims Ask, Will We Ever Belong?

[n00b240]

Remember what I've always said about people who wear their religion / sexual preference / race / political affiliation / etc on their sleeve? If the FIRST thing I learn about you upon meeting you is that you're a Muslim / homosexual / Republican / Atheist / Dominican / schizophrenic, then YOU, sir, have a serious problem.

That was some straight truth.

[szh]

I'd hazard a guess that a lot of this is overblown fears in response to overblown anger in response to overblown reporting.

That is my exact problem with the state of the media today.

They foster and promote simplistic views of complex issues - through snippets and selective editing. Politicians and others have learned to speak in sound-bite format for this very reason.

Z

[IBCoupe]

Bumper-stickery. Helps to not watch TV, and not settle for any one answer. Not saying that you're guilty of any of that, but tell a friend.

[szh]

I prefer to get to know the person, not the affiliation / affliction / affectation.

Woo look at me go with the trifecta of alliteration...

Whoa, Dude!!

Awesome, admirable and just plain amazing too!

Z

[szh]

Bumper-stickery. Helps to not watch TV, and not settle for any one answer. Not saying that you're guilty of any of that, but tell a friend.

I do ... here for example.

Problem is that the vast majority of people (anywhere in the world) are too focused on day-to-day subsistence and other normal daily issues ... or listening to the mullah or pastor down the street.

Sound-bites is all they hear. Most (again the vast majority) don't react to them, but a few do ... to the detriment of all, because the media picks up on that and hypes it ...

Z

[heliochrome85]

a few do ... to the detriment of all, because the media picks up on that and hypes it ...

Z

it helps that the few who do tend to show a less than balanced judgement process

[szh]

a few do ... to the detriment of all, because the media picks up on that and hypes it ...

it helps that the few who do tend to show a less than balanced judgement process

Yes.

Z

[jbracy7]

not if u build a what ever u call it on ground zero, thers not a japanise memorial in perl harbor.or a nazi memorial in berlin why would u want one there, some crazy a** white boy is going to blow it up and cause more terror and headache for all us amercians(legal-and non-legal)

[AZhitman]

Different thread. Let's keep this one on-topic.

Thx J.

[WDRacing]

I'm guilty of judging on appearance alone. But I don't usually have a negative opinion unless you look like a gang banger / trailer trash / emo queer etc. If I see a person of M-E descent and they look like everyone else, I only follow their movements and take video with my phone...

[jbracy7]

OH MY BAD

[audtatious]

Irrationality (from elsewhere)...

Christ Piss: "art" portraying crucifix in urine = does not get s*** blown up
Sensation: "art" portraying Virgin Mary surrounded by mutilation and elephant dung = does not get s*** blown up
Want to burn the Holy Bible? does not get s*** blown up
Want to burn any other book? does not get s*** blown up
Want to draw cartoons mocking Christianity? does not get s*** blown up

Want to draw Mohammed? gets s*** blown up
Want to burn Koran? gets s*** blown up"

[IBCoupe]

It's a bit more complicated than that, and I'm pretty sure you know it.

[audtatious]

Of course. It's still an interesting and somewhat accurate viewpoint (in a simplistic format)

[AZhitman]

It's a bit more complicated than that, and I'm pretty sure you know it.

Only if you're furthering an agenda.

I think I said it before - Quit being an apologist and ask WHY you think Muslims should be the ONLY group in American society that's not persecuted for their beliefs? Why?

[IBCoupe]

No, Greg, it's only simple if you have an interest in ignoring certain aspects of the world. Wanting to see as many aspects as possible is not part of any agenda, it's part of intellectual honesty.

As to your second point: what the hell prompted you to write that? What is it about what I've written here or elsewhere that gave you an indication that those questions were not absurd? Or are you in the habit of asking absurd questions?

[AZhitman]

Before I reply to the hissyfit above...

Tariq, meet Tariq (a name which, incidentally, means "morning star").

http://www.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/09/10/ra ... tml?hpt=C1

[heliochrome85]

Before I reply to the hissyfit above...

Tariq, meet Tariq (a name which, incidentally, means "morning star").

http://www.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/09/10/ra ... tml?hpt=C1

you know its factual because in the first line of the story, the chevy cobalt they were driving broke down.

[AZhitman]

No, Greg, it's only simple if you have an interest in ignoring certain aspects of the world. Wanting to see as many aspects as possible is not part of any agenda, it's part of intellectual honesty.

"Intellectual honesty"? "aspects of the world"? Can we dispense with the philosophical abstractions and stay on-task?

It IS simple. What Matt posted above was a blunt depiction of irrationality in its truest sense.

I could just as easily say you're ignoring "middle America" as you're saying I'm ignoring [insert generic M.E. country].

As to your second point: what the hell prompted you to write that? What is it about what I've written here or elsewhere that gave you an indication that those questions were not absurd? Or are you in the habit of asking absurd questions?

At first I thought I might say, "Don't flatter yourself, that wasn't directed specifically at you."

Then I re-read the thread.

When someone pointed out they hypocrisy and irrationality of the responses from Muslims to certain "slights", you were quick to jump in and say, "It's a bit more complicated than that" as if to invalidate his point...

In fact, the response comes off as somewhat condescending and arrogant - perhaps even "scolding":

"It's a bit more complicated than that, and I'm pretty sure you know it."

So, my question was absurd? Notwithstanding the arrogance of that statement, pull up a chair and take notes:

See, persecution and offensiveness pervades our culture. For example: You can type "Zombie Jesus" without thinking anything of it. It's offensive to me, but I'd hazard a guess you're not going to be drawing caricatures of Mohammed. Why is that? Are you more respectful of one faith than another? Or are you scared that Tariq and Z will show up on your doorstep with a black hood and scimitar, whilst I simply turn the other cheek?

Intellectual honesty my a$$. How about turning some of that introspective bellybutton-gazing back on yourself before you get all haughty with folks...

Respect all or respect none, but don't get pissy when I point out the hypocrisy in someone's 'picking and choosing'.

[audtatious]

My 7-liner above is coming out to be proven more right with each day. The Imam who wants to build the Mosque states it has to be built now in order to avoid "potential" violence against America. Other countries are threatening killing Christian children and killing US troops (Ahmadickajerk used this to state Israel is behind it all). A Muslim protest turned violent against the Germans because they could not provide the mob a US flag to burn so the mob started throwing rocks and everything else they could find at the infidel Germans. Etc. Etc. Etc. As usual it's "don't offend their religion" while they step all over others religions without a second look.

Regardless, there will be a book burning. If the current idiot is not going to do it others will (and where is the ACLU and other organization to support these people's right to burn the book like they seem to support everyone else? ). The only question is what will Islam do about it?

[stebo0728]

I still hold the position that its critical for the moderate sector of Islam to EFFECTIVELY call out and eradicate its radical sector in order for this type of confrontation to end, and for Islam to become a respected religion among the rest, as opposed to a feared one. The longer the moderates look the other way, the more external forces seek to call out the radicals themselves, and that only makes things uglier, and there is more collateral damage done by external forces.

[AZhitman]

I think I made my position sufficiently clear in the "book burning" thread.

It's almost "forwarded-email-worthy" if I do say so myself.

[audtatious]

I still hold the position that its critical for the moderate sector of Islam to EFFECTIVELY call out and eradicate its radical sector in order for this type of confrontation to end, and for Islam to become a respected religion among the rest, as opposed to a feared one. The longer the moderates look the other way, the more external forces seek to call out the radicals themselves, and that only makes things uglier, and there is more collateral damage done by external forces.

And it's not happening.

[stebo0728]

I still hold the position that its critical for the moderate sector of Islam to EFFECTIVELY call out and eradicate its radical sector in order for this type of confrontation to end, and for Islam to become a respected religion among the rest, as opposed to a feared one. The longer the moderates look the other way, the more external forces seek to call out the radicals themselves, and that only makes things uglier, and there is more collateral damage done by external forces.

And it's not happening.

Let me explain by what I mean when I say EFFECTIVELY. I have friends (not many admittedly) that are muslim, and abhor the radical element, and I always here the same sentiment from other. Thats peachy and wonderful and Im glad they feel that way, its the FIRST step. But to be completely EFFECTIVE, those who proclaim to be moderate, and choose to make themselves part of the public eye make themselves spokesmen for the moderate sector by doing so. When these people, such as Imams, clerics, or whatever, decide to get on talk show, respond to new paper interviews, or other public media outlets, and they are asked the tough questions, they MUST address them and not just side step them. Whether its fear or alliance, we have no room for either in this country. The general populous of this nation does not have access to islamic individuals in mass, they may encounter a handful, and get such denouncing sentiment as I describe, but that does not go toward widespread denouncing in their minds. They have to see the majority of public islamic figures taking these positions.

[crimsonryder]

I see muslims everyday and have never witnessed or heard of violence toward them. Stop letting the media and a few instances make you believe that most people really make judgements about a person based on their faith choices.

[szh]

Regardless, there will be a book burning.

Yup. It will happen somewhere.

If the current idiot is not going to do it others will (and where is the ACLU and other organization to support these people's right to burn the book like they seem to support everyone else? ).

Agreed on the point. The ACLU should be there defending their right to do this, no matter how stupid it is!

The only question is what will Islam do about it?

Huhn? How does an abstraction like a religion do something about this situation? it cannot. So, the answer to your question is "nothing", I suppose!

Now, an entirely different question is: how will any extremist or moderate or liberal react to the above (whether a Muslim or not)?

That has many possible answers based on the conditions and situations of who they are, how educated (or not) they are, which media they read, which rhetorical leader they follow or believe in, etc. ...

There are NO simple, clear-cut and obvious answers here!

Z

[audtatious]

I should have said "Islamic fanatics" or those who can be swayed for whatever reason. I agree, there is no clear-cut answer.

[IBCoupe]

"Intellectual honesty"? "aspects of the world"? Can we dispense with the philosophical abstractions and stay on-task?

It IS simple. What Matt posted above was a blunt depiction of irrationality in its truest sense.

I could just as easily say you're ignoring "middle America" as you're saying I'm ignoring [insert generic M.E. country].

It was certainly a depiction of irrationality, but probably not in the way that you're saying. In saying that it's the depictions or the insults that drive the Muslim world to "blow s*** up," Matt simplifies the situation so far as to make a caricature of it. When I said, "It's more complicated than that," I wasn't pointing to the Muslims that don't blow s*** up, I'm pointing to the other factors that contribute to the the relationship between Muhammed cartoons and death threats against cartoonist is not as straightforward as it was made out to be. The implication that it's a simple cause-and-effect, if it's known not to be the case, is intellectual dishonesty. Okay?

At first I thought I might say, "Don't flatter yourself, that wasn't directed specifically at you."

Then I re-read the thread.

When someone pointed out they hypocrisy and irrationality of the responses from Muslims to certain "slights", you were quick to jump in and say, "It's a bit more complicated than that" as if to invalidate his point...

In fact, the response comes off as somewhat condescending and arrogant - perhaps even "scolding":

"It's a bit more complicated than that, and I'm pretty sure you know it."

So, my question was absurd? Notwithstanding the arrogance of that statement, pull up a chair and take notes:

See, persecution and offensiveness pervades our culture. For example: You can type "Zombie Jesus" without thinking anything of it. It's offensive to me, but I'd hazard a guess you're not going to be drawing caricatures of Mohammed. Why is that? Are you more respectful of one faith than another? Or are you scared that Tariq and Z will show up on your doorstep with a black hood and scimitar, whilst I simply turn the other cheek?

Intellectual honesty my a$$. How about turning some of that introspective bellybutton-gazing back on yourself before you get all haughty with folks...

Respect all or respect none, but don't get pissy when I point out the hypocrisy in someone's 'picking and choosing'.

I'm not pissy about you pointing out someone's picking at choosing. You quoted me and then asked a question. If it wasn't intended to be asked of me, fine. My mistake. But what was absurd was the "stop being an apologist" and the assertion that " think Muslims should be the ONLY group in American society that's not persecuted for their beliefs." My question to you, Captain Overreaction, was: "What the hell made you think that any of that is applicable to me?"

Compared to what you just blurted out, my comment was hardly a "hissy fit."

[audtatious]

I see muslims everyday and have never witnessed or heard of violence toward them. Stop letting the media and a few instances make you believe that most people really make judgements about a person based on their faith choices.

I don't see it either around here but it must be true because we are told via news reports that Americans are islamaphobes and we should be ashamed of ourselves.

[mattblancarte]

Matt simplifies the situation so far as to make a caricature of it.

Well, c'mon now... I just got gunned down in a drive-by shooting. I didn't have time to dive into detail, my apologies. If you feel as if I portray reality in a distorted manner, it would help if you give me specific feedback to work from.

Sure, it's lame that the pastor out in Florida is a complete a-hole. The fact that he is encouraging a book burning says enough about the guy. I wish he would just be a peaceful Christian.

Perhaps I'm just jaded from years of verbal persecution from religious folks, Christians and Muslims included. My expectation of them is that they won't change their ways.