air / water intercooler heat exchanger options

[GODCHSR]

I'm putting together a custom AWIC kit and I thought about using an old AC Condensor as my heat exchanger.

I don't see why it wouldn't work... it is a heat exchanger by nature but I thought I'd come looking for input.

A heat exchanger runs about $150 for a large size so I'm not looking to spend that kind of money if an equal substitute can be had for much less.

[480sx]

No idea what your talking about.

[eazye2000]

Sounds like a cheap alternative to me. Probably not the most efficient, but it should work.

Get some pictures of the build. I'm curious to see how this goes together. I'd like to do this myself on the strip-car.

[GODCHSR]

No idea what your talking about.

AWIC= Air to Water Intercooler

[GODCHSR]

Sounds like a cheap alternative to me. Probably not the most efficient, but it should work.

Get some pictures of the build. I'm curious to see how this goes together. I'd like to do this myself on the strip-car.

It'll be a couple weeks before I'm done. (Before Sept 6th at least)

I just wasn't sure if anyone had experimented with any other forms of Heat Exchangers.

I've thought about using a Honda Radiator... large Oil Cooler... Condenser... etc...

[480sx]

Erm.. Just explain your idea from scratch please and how your going to implement it?

Why do you want a AWIC? Drag only car?

[Chris28]

http://www.frozenboost.com/

Easier just to buy one than to try and make it from an a/c condenser.

[GODCHSR]

Erm.. Just explain your idea from scratch please and how your going to implement it?

Why do you want a AWIC? Drag only car?

I choose an AWIC for shorter piping... Water pulls heat better than air... Pressure drop in the cores is a significantly lower than Ait to Air... and optional ice reservoirs for the strip.

My plan is pretty simple and any 'kit' would do but I thought about cutting the costs by simply buying the core and pump seperately and saving money on the exchanger by substituting it for some other system... like a free Condensor or Radiator I MAY have laying around in the garage. lol

[eazye2000]

I'm with you brother, cheap for the win! Put something together out of spare parts, and see how it works for what you are trying to do. Then, put the money into it and make it rock solid and dependable.

One of the $>100 aluminum honda radiators on eBay would be my choice if I couldn't source a condenser or something of the sorts.

[trackslut240]

i was reading into these too, they are really cool and efficient, the only thing i think will be a problem is the ac condensor will make the water pump work harder than it should coz of the size of tubing. still a noob, do more reading than posting. pump amperage and fan amperage might overtax the already weak charging system?.. some of these so called kits are 350, which have everything but u just plumb the piping for intercooler.

[GODCHSR]

i was reading into these too, they are really cool and efficient, the only thing i think will be a problem is the ac condensor will make the water pump work harder than it should coz of the size of tubing. still a noob, do more reading than posting. pump amperage and fan amperage might overtax the already weak charging system?.. some of these so called kits are 350, which have everything but u just plumb the piping for intercooler.

I've already got an electric fan in my garage so I'm not too worried about that.The pump wouldn't have to work any harder, at least I don't see why.

The real issue is if an AC Condensor can pull heat off well. I just don't know why not??

[480sx]

I choose an AWIC for shorter piping... Water pulls heat better than air... Pressure drop in the cores is a significantly lower than Ait to Air... and optional ice reservoirs for the strip.

Dude, if this is a daily driver or you plan to run it on the street even a decent amount, dont use a water to air IC.. Its just not what you want. You have no idea how ineffective an AWIC is for a daily driven car, they suck and really arnt used for that application because of the reality that is AWIC..

On a drag motor, they are great. You toss some cubes in your water reservoir, after 2-3 passes your water is hot and you change it. For a daily driven car, after about eh.. 20-30 min you might as well have no intercooler at all. You could keep a massive tank of ice water in the trunk and maybe get a couple hours or maybe even a half day of easy driving out of it before you have to... change a massive tank of water in your trunk lol.

Then you have the stress on the electrical system, and potential for additional headaches and failures. Running water through the cab is one of your only options if you want a significant amount of water(and if you dont want your water heat soaked by your 200 degree engine).

Idk man i could go deeper but i mean iv pretty much laid it out there. Im sorry if i seem like im being an a**, or if im trying to shoot down your dreams but dude, im just being realistic. I went through this exact same ish as you a few years back. AWIC's are not for anything but track only cars.

Regardless, do what you want and props for DIY.

[GODCHSR]

Dude, if this is a daily driver or you plan to run it on the street even a decent amount, dont use a water to air IC...

....Regardless, do what you want and props for DIY.

Well for starters this was not a thread about whether or not you or anyone likes AWIC.

I am not a noob I ALREADY KNOW the potential drawbacks. I am purposebuilding for drag. discussion over



I'm getting the impression that no one here has experimented with Heat exchangers larger than the 'kit' ones. SO I guess I'll just have to see for myself if it'll work.

Condensor FTW I guess.

[eazye2000]

The only one I have dealt with, is an old Koyo for an SR. That's why I threw the Honda radiator out there as an option. It worked well enough to get the job done. And we used an old latch-top pressure cooker kettle as the reservoir for ice and just TIG'd on fittings since it was all aluminum. And the pump was an in-line Rule pump like the ones in the kits. But it was sourced from the local bait and tackle shop for like 29 bucks.

I would build another one in a heartbeat. I would like to put IAT sensors in the next one to see how much it actually cools compared to my air to air.

[GODCHSR]

I've basically got 3 more weeks until the IFO here in Kansas City so I need to get this ball rolling.

[480sx]

Before you got pissy with me, you probably should have just read and answered my question from the start. It would have avoided the whole "this guy has no idea wtf he is getting himself into" train of thought. Sorry, the s*** is not personal. It just really helps to know what the f your doing when your coming to us asking for help.

Your impression is wrong btw, but you do what you wana do.

[GODCHSR]

Before you got pissy with me, you probably should have just read and answered my question from the start. It would have avoided the whole "this guy has no idea wtf he is getting himself into" train of thought. Sorry, the s*** is not personal. It just really helps to know what the f your doing when your coming to us asking for help.

Your impression is wrong btw, but you do what you wana do.

I have no idea why you think am being pissy. I'm simply not here to debate "AWIC vs FMIC"I chose AWIC and don't care about the opposing view on intercoolers anymore.

I only came in to find out if anyone else has used an AC condensor or something else as a heat exchanger.

[GODCHSR]

I'm getting the impression that no one here has experimented with Heat exchangers larger than the 'kit' ones.

Your impression is wrong btw, but you do what you wana do.

If you know someone who has let me know... I'd like to see if it worked well for them.

[480sx]

Why would i be in a debate with you over AWIC's lol? Im just tryen to help you dude. Both IC systems are accepted, and both work great. But there are a lot of people who just want to slap a AWIC on their DD cuz its the hot ish and dont understand the reality that is air to water IC systems. I dont know you from Adam.

Its a pretty simple concept dude. Iv worked with this ish all my life. The more surface area of the 'radiator', A coil, condenser, ect, the more heat it can exchange if you will. So, optimally, your looking for the biggest 'radiator' you can possibly find to fit inside your space constraints.

Now, in your situation you are trying to exchange heat from water to air. Again, the more surface area you have for your exchanger, the better its going to work. Obviously you cant have something to too ridiculous in there, it has to flow a significant amount of air especially if your talking a drag application. It also needs to flow as smoothly as possible, if you want the optimal setup that retains a low pressure loss and doesnt create unnecessary lag.

We probably both know how the AWIC's that most people use work when money isnt an issue, so im not going to get into those.

In my opinion, a condenser is to thin to exchange the amount of heat you need to exchange under high boost. You might be able to run two condensers, staggerd inside your AWIC and get away with it, i dont know. I would look at a smaller radiator. For instance, i picked up a radiator for an old motorcycle and that thing would be nearly perfect for this situation, if it wernt so long. I picked it up for like.. 15 bucks on ebay.

If i were you, i would go with two small radiators. Say, 6x6 or whatever fits or whatever you can find. Put them in sequence inside your AWIC, and bam. Done.

Come back at us with the results from whatever you end up doing heh. Pre-throttle body IAT's are very important on a setup like this for the longevity of your motor, and to make sure your IC system is working at its peak efficiency each run. Get some form of an IAT gauge, you can DIY one they are easy.


Modified by 480sx at 4:56 PM 8/16/2009

[GODCHSR]

If i were you, i would go with two small radiators. Say, 6x6 or whatever fits or whatever you can find. Put them in sequence inside your AWIC, and bam. Done.

Come back at us with the results from whatever you end up doing heh. Pre-throttle body IAT's are very important on a setup like this for the longevity of your motor, and to make sure your IC system is working at its peak efficiency each run. Get some form of an IAT gauge, you can DIY one they are easy. Modified by 480sx at 4:56 PM 8/16/2009

I think we're talking about 2 different things maybe???I'm not talking about the AWIC core, I'm talking about the exchanger in the front of the car to cool the water down before it circulates back to the Core.

[WDRacing]

No idea what your talking about.

Well there's a valuable post.

Dude, if this is a daily driver or you plan to run it on the street even a decent amount, dont use a water to air IC.. Its just not what you want. You have no idea how ineffective an AWIC is for a daily driven car, they suck and really arnt used for that application because of the reality that is AWIC..

Dude...

Sometimes Nate you come across like a know-it-all. I dunno if you're having a bad day or what, but it's hardly our problem if that's the case. Sorry to call it like I see it. AWIC isn't hardly as bad as you make it sound and IDGAF if "you've been doing this your whole life".

There are excellent ways to run awic setups, they have been doing it over in Aussie land for a decade with excellent success and datalogs of the IATs and all kinds of other crap.

Just because YOU don't like it, doesn't mean everyone should adopt your idea of whats the best way. Nuff said on this topic.

**********************************************************

The AC Condenser will work fine as a heat sinc especially since it's mounted already and has a huge surface area. Not to mention the size of the fans that can be attached to it For a daily driver setting you can figure out how much boost you can run while not overheating the water with a simple water temp gauge. I'd watch the IAT's as well if you have the option. For the track you can run more boost with the flip of a switch, just use ice water in the tank. I've thought about a vented dry ice setup. With an AWIC setup you'll be able to run a bunch more boost at the track depending on what cooling media you use. I think the AWIC will handle 300ish hp with just regular water and the heat sinc for daily driving but only testing will confirm it.

I'd also get some type of knock monitor, I use the MSD Knock ALert

Props for doing something different

WD

I edited the title for clarity

[480sx]

car to cool the water down before it circulates back to the Core.

Ohhhhh ok. Honestly, im not really sure why thats really necessary on a budget drag car? Seems like just an additional plumbing and work when all you would have to do is do a pass, add ice, do a pass, add ice, do a pass, change water. IDK just my 2c. In fact, the heat exchanger your talking about seems to me to be detrimental to your overall system. I mean, if your using ice water, why would you want to use an exchanger thats exchanging ice cold water with ambient air temps?

WD - Dude, im an expert in this field who hangs out/works with other experts. lol, nuf said. No where on the internet or nico does it say i cant flex knowledge. You would think it would be more welcome lol. Im aware of how i come across, IDGAF. Everyone hates on smart people who know a lot, frankly, thats not my problem. Im not being disrespectful or an a** here, i just know wtf im talking about lol so im tryen to HELP THIS DUDE.

Had a great day. Thanks for asking.

I LOVE AWIC's THEY ARE REALLY COOL. SERIOUSLY, AWIC'S CAN WE SQUASH THE BEEF?

Oh and by the way? A lot of the 'beef' that is caused between me and people on nico is because of that effing title bro. People read it, and dismiss me. Again, not my problem when i have to give people a reality check that hey, im actually not a f***ing hippy and i actually do know my s***. THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT WD.
Modified by 480sx at 9:30 AM 8/17/2009

[WDRacing]

No where on the internet or nico does it say i cant flex knowledge. Im aware of how i come across, IDGAF.

You're correct. It doesn't say anywhere that you can't "flex" your knowledge muscle. We do welcome it...you know this. But knowing you come across badly and still don't care speaks volumes about your character. Stop and actually think about that statement before you reply.

I'm asking you to try and communicate more effectively or else your knowledge gets wasted on deaf ears. I'm also asking because it generally makes threads more negative then they need to be.

You should know that the difference between someone with knowledge and someone that shares knowledge effectively are entirely separate. In your opinion you didn't come across like an a$$, but to the reader it's clearly the opposite. So in order for you to get your "flex" on you need to understand that communication requires 2 or more parties.

Saying others hate on smart people is ignorant. If the smart people would quit assuming they were smarter then everyone, there would be no problem. Now I'm not saying that's where you fit it, I'm just saying in general.

Please...for me, try to tone it down.

WD

[480sx]

I really dont think i come across badly.. I just come across as an arrogant prick sometimes, and i can live with that right now. Sometimes you have to slap people around before they will listen. Ill tone it down man, you know how i post in this section dude, iv been here for a long time.

[WDRacing]

I know you've been one of the most contributing members in KAT and I do respect that. Which is why I'm asking you to tone it down. No one needs to be slapped around, and I'm sorry but that won't be tolerated. Hence the whole tone it down thing.

Consider it dropped on my end

[480sx]

^^ word

[C-Kwik]

Dude, if this is a daily driver or you plan to run it on the street even a decent amount, dont use a water to air IC.. Its just not what you want. You have no idea how ineffective an AWIC is for a daily driven car, they suck and really arnt used for that application because of the reality that is AWIC..

There isn't really any reason a Liquid to Air intercooler can't be used effectively on the street. In fact, street use should be one of the lower stress applications for ANY intercooler application as people will tend to spend much less time under boost than one might at a race track. The key to a good liquid to air system is making sure its sized properly. As long as the water coming out of the ambient heat exchanger is close to ambient temps, there is no reason why the system can not perform effectively. Even drag races can tend to have a negligible effect on a liquid to air IC depending on how much water is in the system. Water has a high specific heat and makes for a great heat exchange medium. With enough water in the system, the relatively short duration of a drag race could rely on the heat sink properties of mass much like large air-to-air intercoolers already to. Only, in the case of liquid to air, there will likely be greater heat sink capacity due to the amount of water in such a system.

In my opinion, a condenser is to thin to exchange the amount of heat you need to exchange under high boost. You might be able to run two condensers, staggerd inside your AWIC and get away with it, i dont know. I would look at a smaller radiator. For instance, i picked up a radiator for an old motorcycle and that thing would be nearly perfect for this situation, if it wernt so long. I picked it up for like.. 15 bucks on ebay.

The thickness of the condensor is only one dimension that needs to be considered. Many condensors are as large as the radiators for the vehicle they are mounted on. This represents a very large surface area to allow heat echange. And if we were to compare it to a thicker exchanger of the same volume, the thinner exchanger with a larger frontal area would be more efficient at exchanging heat as much more of the exchange surface will be exposed to ambient temperatures. Thicker cores see exchanges with higher temperature air as the air moves through the core making it less effective.

Ultimately, there are only two things that really need to be analyzed. How much water flow is needed to effectively cool down charge temps in the given charge air exchanger. The ambient exchanger needs to be able to handle that flow rate (I believe condensor lines tend to be narrower than typical liquid to air water lines). And second, the condensor has to have enough heat exchange capacity to bring water temps down sufficiently. I'd expect that the overall volume (not the internal volume) of the ambient exchanger would need to be greater than that of the charge air exchanger simply because the ambient air flowing through it would not be as dense as the charge air (assuming minimum size requirements).

In the end, the ability of such a system will depend on the individual components used rather than what its intent was for.

[GODCHSR]

Here's the thing:If I wire the Water pump to a switch in the car ANDWire the Heat Exchanger to a switch in the car... then in between passes I can keep both the pump and fan going while the car is off. This will continue to circulate the water and cool it down while I wait for the next pass.

Truth be known AWIC is gonna be fine for DD (although this is not my intention) as long as you use a heat exchanger.

[GODCHSR]

Ohhhhh ok. Honestly, im not really sure why thats really necessary on a budget drag car? Seems like just an additional plumbing and work...

I think you're talking about an AWIC kit that only utilizes a reservoir of some sort.

All the kits I have ever seen though use a Heat Exchanger in the front of the car with an electric fan to pull heat off the water.

I know we'd all agree that water pulls heat better than air, EVEN if the water is at a slightly higher temperature than the air.Case in point: if you burn your finger you could run warm water over the burn and it still cool down MUCH faster than putting it in front of an Air Conditioner. It's because of the properties of water and it's ability to absorb heat.

[GODCHSR]

The AC Condenser will work fine as a heat sinc especially since it's mounted already and has a huge surface area. Not to mention the size of the fans that can be attached to it

I fiured it should be enough. The electric fan out of my Z32TT pulls quite a bit of air too soI think it should be good if I just move the condensor forward a little away from the radiator.

This should save me around $150