Air Filter Probs?
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JoshIsSciFi
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elwesso
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2007 BMW M Coupe
2007 Infiniti G35 S 6MT - Location: Indiana
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I saw my name, and spark plugs!! [email protected] , ILL get you fixed up!!!
I dont know why you all are hesitant to get OEM air filters... You can get new ones for under $20 shipped overnight from Joe!!
I dont know why you all are hesitant to get OEM air filters... You can get new ones for under $20 shipped overnight from Joe!!
Q45tech,
Wern't you making this point regarding the MAF being tricked?
Ongoing development of the intake system revealed an interesting and significant discovery. Based upon exhaustive testing, it was determined that the stock location of the air temperature sensor within the Air Mass Meter was providing the engine management system with an artificially high reading, resulting in reduced power output.
The culprit was determined to be "heat soaking" of the Air Mass Meter when an adequate flow of air was not passing over it, such as in daily stop and go traffic, producing a reading substantially higher than the actual temperature of the air entering the intake system.
Wern't you making this point regarding the MAF being tricked?
Ongoing development of the intake system revealed an interesting and significant discovery. Based upon exhaustive testing, it was determined that the stock location of the air temperature sensor within the Air Mass Meter was providing the engine management system with an artificially high reading, resulting in reduced power output.
The culprit was determined to be "heat soaking" of the Air Mass Meter when an adequate flow of air was not passing over it, such as in daily stop and go traffic, producing a reading substantially higher than the actual temperature of the air entering the intake system.
I'm pulling my JWT intake ASAP..
Just not worth it in the AZ heat...
If we had a solution made for defeating the underhood heat AND a MAF solution like dinan made, maybe it would be worth it..
"And another btw, I'm pretty sure that you all are right about losing power with the cone, considering I ran a 9.9 1/8th with stock intake, and 10.2 with cone..."
That is very telling.. I think I will make some gtech runs prior to removing it.
Just not worth it in the AZ heat...
If we had a solution made for defeating the underhood heat AND a MAF solution like dinan made, maybe it would be worth it..
"And another btw, I'm pretty sure that you all are right about losing power with the cone, considering I ran a 9.9 1/8th with stock intake, and 10.2 with cone..."
That is very telling.. I think I will make some gtech runs prior to removing it.
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Q45tech
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- Car: 1990 Q45 342,400 miles 22 years ownership with original engine
1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
During design, the engineers place thermocouples everywhere.Every inch or two all over the engine and in every nook and cranny of the compartment.
Also they use thermography video cameras to make heat pictureshttp://www.avio.co.jp/english/...4.gifhttp://w ... co...2.jpg
http://www.ebs-thermography.co....html
Something that physically fits or designed in a small shop doesn't have the budget to be properly evaluated and optimized.
Also they use thermography video cameras to make heat pictureshttp://www.avio.co.jp/english/...4.gifhttp://w ... co...2.jpg
http://www.ebs-thermography.co....html
Something that physically fits or designed in a small shop doesn't have the budget to be properly evaluated and optimized.
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Q45tech
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- Car: 1990 Q45 342,400 miles 22 years ownership with original engine
1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
Caddy performance owners find cones perform worse than oem filter box:http://www.caddyinfo.com/airboxvscone.htm
Even worse [for K&N] the oem paper out performed the oil drop in:
http://www.caddyinfo.com/airfilterstudy2.htm
Real world acceleration test not some paid to read dyno.
Even worse [for K&N] the oem paper out performed the oil drop in:
http://www.caddyinfo.com/airfilterstudy2.htm
Real world acceleration test not some paid to read dyno.
azhitman,
no we don't. we just have a bunch of haters bashing on a bmw product. instead of bashing, maybe people should focus on bringing products to market. Not directed to anyone in paticular, but it's ridiculous to bash something. I was just pointing out the intake dealt with underhood heat, and the maf being tricked.
no we don't. we just have a bunch of haters bashing on a bmw product. instead of bashing, maybe people should focus on bringing products to market. Not directed to anyone in paticular, but it's ridiculous to bash something. I was just pointing out the intake dealt with underhood heat, and the maf being tricked.
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AZhitman
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But the fact of the matter is, the MAF WAS NOT being "tricked" - It was reading accurately. There does exist a "heat soak" condition on those cars (and ours) which is very real and measureable. The MAF is simply doing its job.
Aside from relocating the throttle body to the outside of the engine bay (ridiculous), the fact remains that the intake HAS to travel through the superheated environs of the engine compartment.
Decreasing the exposure of the intake to said heat is the ONLY way to prevent this. "Tricking" the MAF is not the answer. For now, I believe that retaining the stock airbox, while re-routing the intake tube to a more "high pressure" location, and insulating the intake tract to the greatest extent possible (as well as possibly rigging some sort of water cooling), is the best feasible answer.
And the great thing about it is, it's cheap.
You said it yourself, the JWT intake is not all it's cracked up to be. The "Dinan" system was no different.
No reason to "bring something to market" that won't sell. Hell, even things that are proven don't always sell well. Time will tell if I wind up holding the bag on a header and catback jig like I did on the 4.08's I bought.
p.s. You may call it "bashing", some people call it "pointing out inaccuracies when they see them" or "telling it like it is". Even you can respect that.
Bashing is in the eye of the beholder.
Aside from relocating the throttle body to the outside of the engine bay (ridiculous), the fact remains that the intake HAS to travel through the superheated environs of the engine compartment.
Decreasing the exposure of the intake to said heat is the ONLY way to prevent this. "Tricking" the MAF is not the answer. For now, I believe that retaining the stock airbox, while re-routing the intake tube to a more "high pressure" location, and insulating the intake tract to the greatest extent possible (as well as possibly rigging some sort of water cooling), is the best feasible answer.
And the great thing about it is, it's cheap.
You said it yourself, the JWT intake is not all it's cracked up to be. The "Dinan" system was no different.
No reason to "bring something to market" that won't sell. Hell, even things that are proven don't always sell well. Time will tell if I wind up holding the bag on a header and catback jig like I did on the 4.08's I bought.
p.s. You may call it "bashing", some people call it "pointing out inaccuracies when they see them" or "telling it like it is". Even you can respect that.
Bashing is in the eye of the beholder.
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Q45tech
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- Car: 1990 Q45 342,400 miles 22 years ownership with original engine
1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
Many times the air temp sensor is biased upward [multiplied by some constant] to correct for what the engineers know about air heating upstream from the MAF. Since it is impractical to measure each runner air temp just before injector [where it counts].
I ran a K&N Cone from 80k to 140k before I did some thermal testing and began to understand the truth.
Thermal IR and thermistor measurements of the lower runner a few inches above the injector show it can be 180F at highway speed.
Hot coolant circulates thru TB assembly to help avoid PCV gases from condensing on rear and bottom of TB and plate [where the black gunk comes from]. There is a sudden and dramatic temperature drop immediately after a Bernoulli venturi...[partially opened throttle plate]. Also in winter the TB plate might freeze up!
"warm air can hold more moisture than cooler air and when there is a temperature drop across the venturi the excess moisture comes out. If the temperature at the throttle is above 32F, the water vapor and water goes through the engine, if not it freezes to the throttle plate etc. and the engine quits. At temps below -10F the air does not hold enough moisture to cause icing."
http://www.public.asu.edu/~dma...3.pdf
"For some gases, notably hydrogen, the temperature rises for throttling processes over ordinary ranges of temperature and pressure. ..... The ratio of observed drop in temperature to the drop in pressure, i.e. dT/dp, is the Joule-Thomson coefficient."
I ran a K&N Cone from 80k to 140k before I did some thermal testing and began to understand the truth.
Thermal IR and thermistor measurements of the lower runner a few inches above the injector show it can be 180F at highway speed.
Hot coolant circulates thru TB assembly to help avoid PCV gases from condensing on rear and bottom of TB and plate [where the black gunk comes from]. There is a sudden and dramatic temperature drop immediately after a Bernoulli venturi...[partially opened throttle plate]. Also in winter the TB plate might freeze up!
"warm air can hold more moisture than cooler air and when there is a temperature drop across the venturi the excess moisture comes out. If the temperature at the throttle is above 32F, the water vapor and water goes through the engine, if not it freezes to the throttle plate etc. and the engine quits. At temps below -10F the air does not hold enough moisture to cause icing."
http://www.public.asu.edu/~dma...3.pdf
"For some gases, notably hydrogen, the temperature rises for throttling processes over ordinary ranges of temperature and pressure. ..... The ratio of observed drop in temperature to the drop in pressure, i.e. dT/dp, is the Joule-Thomson coefficient."