Here guys, i try to go with either AEM ems or Power Fc for my setup but don't which one would work for me. I have search several forum and gather some information of the different performance and capability between the two, but still not satify. So can you guys up here can help me with this problem. My goal is to make my S14 RB25det NEO powered around 400-450hp daily driving. I love to have that much hp but i still to have that daily drivablility, smooth take off and fast (i don't know if the sound right or not) and still like the quick start up and good idel on the motor. I don't drag race. Only daily drive and drift some time (into i have a 2nd car then i make this a drift car). So which one should i go with AEM or POWER FC.
This is a plan of setup for the rb25det NEO and it currently stock except intake manifold and front intercooler setup. >550 injector>top mount manifold (maybe fullrace, but don't if i cant affort that lol)>Gt3076r>Jun Style knock off ebay intake that i got in the car now (hear some good thing about them and hoping work fien for me too lol). >264 HKS camshaft There are more parts that i have not decided, but that the give you guys more info so you can help me decide which one will fit for me.
THANK ALOT GUYS
Please excuse me for any grammer mistake guys.
Aem ems VS. Apexi power fc
Re: (BlackRB)
If you really really really wanted to you could could do a repin but no, there is no base map and the connector is different.
Re: (Carl H)
WOW
Modified by BlackRB at 11:39 AM 3/4/2009
Wow that sound like add more work to use the AEM. So what if i repin and use AEM for the NEO. After still the question is which Stand Alone System will fit for ME? Please help me you guys. Thank alot for the helpCarl H wrote:you can make a jumper harness to run the r33 ems on the neo...
Modified by BlackRB at 11:39 AM 3/4/2009
Re: (BlackRB)
VE's were found is '92-94 dohc maximas which should be plentiful.BlackRB wrote: could that be found in Nissan Maxima too or that only in Z32?
I think your only option for pnp standalone is the power fc which for the R34 gtt is $$$$. I think for what you're looking for the pfc is probably best.
Re: (eh?)
ONE down for power FC. Any one have more comment. Thank alot EH?eh? wrote:
VE's were found is '92-94 dohc maximas which should be plentiful.
I think your only option for pnp standalone is the power fc which for the R34 gtt is $$$$. I think for what you're looking for the pfc is probably best.
Re: (BlackRB)
if u had a choice, id go power fc.
tony at ums said that when he tuned my rb w/ aem ems, that the aem is built for every car. where as the pfc is built using the nissan computer. he said the pfc would work alot better with stock sensors and what not.
but i am happy with my aem ems and what it can do. minus it originally could have been the cause of popping my first engine. but the cas disk with aem is fixed now (thanks to a honda disk for the cas)
tony at ums said that when he tuned my rb w/ aem ems, that the aem is built for every car. where as the pfc is built using the nissan computer. he said the pfc would work alot better with stock sensors and what not.
but i am happy with my aem ems and what it can do. minus it originally could have been the cause of popping my first engine. but the cas disk with aem is fixed now (thanks to a honda disk for the cas)
Re: (krayton)
What motor are you running aem with. if you don't mind i'n asking. Than alotkrayton wrote:if u had a choice, id go power fc.
tony at ums said that when he tuned my rb w/ aem ems, that the aem is built for every car. where as the pfc is built using the nissan computer. he said the pfc would work alot better with stock sensors and what not.
but i am happy with my aem ems and what it can do. minus it originally could have been the cause of popping my first engine. but the cas disk with aem is fixed now (thanks to a honda disk for the cas)
Re: (Carl H)
How do you tuned the stock ECU Carl? Do you rechip the stock ecu? If so where can i get that done?Carl H wrote:personally i hate the pfc and have mixed feelings about the aem ems...ive had the best luck tuning the stock ecu.
Re: (Carl H)
Hi guys. Ima convert from the ca motor but purchased a aem ems when i bought rb25. I have nistune on my ca and if it works same for rb would definitely have been choice if budget didn't allow aem. I'll try and give some input as to how the aem works for a mostly street driven/tuned rb25
I have the AEM on my 26.. Works fine. Daily drive it no problems, at all. But tuning is a lot more about the tuner than what EMS you are running.
Even though I run a standalone myself, my opinion is essentially the same to everyone. If it is available for your stock ECU I would suggest the Nistune or a rom-based tune. The stock hardware is very good and for most people the capability of the stock ECU is more than enough.
If you are going "balls-to-the-wall" an EMS is the better solution since it can control almost anything you throw at it, and has correction maps for basically anything you need.
However for everyone else, especially those doing a street/strip car, stick with the stock hardware.
Even though I run a standalone myself, my opinion is essentially the same to everyone. If it is available for your stock ECU I would suggest the Nistune or a rom-based tune. The stock hardware is very good and for most people the capability of the stock ECU is more than enough.
If you are going "balls-to-the-wall" an EMS is the better solution since it can control almost anything you throw at it, and has correction maps for basically anything you need.
However for everyone else, especially those doing a street/strip car, stick with the stock hardware.
Re: (WhatsADSM)
Cool nice to hear that. I'll look deep in to that. thnx alot.WhatsADSM wrote:I have the AEM on my 26.. Works fine. Daily drive it no problems, at all. But tuning is a lot more about the tuner than what EMS you are running.
Even though I run a standalone myself, my opinion is essentially the same to everyone. If it is available for your stock ECU I would suggest the Nistune or a rom-based tune. The stock hardware is very good and for most people the capability of the stock ECU is more than enough.
If you are going "balls-to-the-wall" an EMS is the better solution since it can control almost anything you throw at it, and has correction maps for basically anything you need.
However for everyone else, especially those doing a street/strip car, stick with the stock hardware.
-
SamuraiSam
- Posts: 66
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:47 pm
Re: Aem ems VS. Apexi power fc (BlackRB)
Well unfortunately there is a ton of completely incorrect information in this thread in almost every single post and I don't have the time to sift through all of it.
You will need to decide how much HP and torque and what kind of a powerband you actually want. If you are daily driving then a 400 or 450hp, light weight rear wheel drive, fairly large displacement engine is a really bad idea. Especially if you ever encounter 'rain' or 'snow.' Step back, figure out what you are actually going to do with the car, and plan. A 350hp SR20 with NO low end torque is a fast, fun car. The RB25 is GREAT at making a lot of low end power and you will not have traction in third gear with more then 350lb/ft tq at the wheels, period.
We have been doing RB25 and RB26 swaps in S13 and S14 for awhile. The best way to do it is use a good intake manifold as you will make way more power then crap ebay knockoffs and the product will last. GReddy RB25 manifolds work very well. We just did 300lb/ft torque at around 3 grand, on a bone stock, stock turbo RB25 with just an FMIC and GReddy IM yesterday.
Your "build list" looks like a 16 year old kid opened up a RB25 parts website and started randomly picking items out. 550cc injectors are a waste of money: 720cc or similar. AEM ems is garbage and will not work no matter what with your setup. PowerFC out of the box is not going to work. Nistune out of the box will not work. If you deal with an RB wiring specialist your engine can be set up with a few different sensors and rewiring of the main ECU plug to use a different ECU that is tunable and will run as factory, but with more power. Choosing the right shop here is important.
Why do you need a top mount manifold?Why a GT3076R? Do you know that you will not reach 450hp or close to it on such a small compressor? JUN Style manifold is garbage, probably porously cast, it will not work for you.
264 what HKS camshaft? What lift? Model number? Are they NEO specific camshafts? Is VTC still used as stock or does it need to be controlled with your cams?
Take some time and learn more about what is available and look at some RB25 builds and NEO ECU & Wiring options before you spend any money.
Modified by SamuraiSam at 8:00 AM 3/6/2009
You will need to decide how much HP and torque and what kind of a powerband you actually want. If you are daily driving then a 400 or 450hp, light weight rear wheel drive, fairly large displacement engine is a really bad idea. Especially if you ever encounter 'rain' or 'snow.' Step back, figure out what you are actually going to do with the car, and plan. A 350hp SR20 with NO low end torque is a fast, fun car. The RB25 is GREAT at making a lot of low end power and you will not have traction in third gear with more then 350lb/ft tq at the wheels, period.
We have been doing RB25 and RB26 swaps in S13 and S14 for awhile. The best way to do it is use a good intake manifold as you will make way more power then crap ebay knockoffs and the product will last. GReddy RB25 manifolds work very well. We just did 300lb/ft torque at around 3 grand, on a bone stock, stock turbo RB25 with just an FMIC and GReddy IM yesterday.
Your "build list" looks like a 16 year old kid opened up a RB25 parts website and started randomly picking items out. 550cc injectors are a waste of money: 720cc or similar. AEM ems is garbage and will not work no matter what with your setup. PowerFC out of the box is not going to work. Nistune out of the box will not work. If you deal with an RB wiring specialist your engine can be set up with a few different sensors and rewiring of the main ECU plug to use a different ECU that is tunable and will run as factory, but with more power. Choosing the right shop here is important.
Why do you need a top mount manifold?Why a GT3076R? Do you know that you will not reach 450hp or close to it on such a small compressor? JUN Style manifold is garbage, probably porously cast, it will not work for you.
264 what HKS camshaft? What lift? Model number? Are they NEO specific camshafts? Is VTC still used as stock or does it need to be controlled with your cams?
Take some time and learn more about what is available and look at some RB25 builds and NEO ECU & Wiring options before you spend any money.
Modified by SamuraiSam at 8:00 AM 3/6/2009
-
Romeo_rus
- Posts: 644
- Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 7:18 pm
- Car: zenki RB25DET - SOLD, zenki SE ka24de - wrecked, zenki - sold, GOLD ZENKI - WILL LIVE FOREVA
- Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Re: Aem ems VS. Apexi power fc (SamuraiSam)
Nice write up!!! You have cleaned even my brains
Re: Aem ems VS. Apexi power fc (SamuraiSam)
Do you have any actual experience or just talking out of your a**? APEXI makes a R34 NEO PFC and Nistune does work R34 NEO ECU's. The AEM works with ANYTHINGSamuraiSam wrote:Well unfortunately there is a ton of completely incorrect information in this thread in almost every single post and I don't have the time to sift through all of it.
You will need to decide how much HP and torque and what kind of a powerband you actually want. If you are daily driving then a 400 or 450hp, light weight rear wheel drive, fairly large displacement engine is a really bad idea. Especially if you ever encounter 'rain' or 'snow.' Step back, figure out what you are actually going to do with the car, and plan. A 350hp SR20 with NO low end torque is a fast, fun car. The RB25 is GREAT at making a lot of low end power and you will not have traction in third gear with more then 350lb/ft tq at the wheels, period.
We have been doing RB25 and RB26 swaps in S13 and S14 for awhile. The best way to do it is use a good intake manifold as you will make way more power then crap ebay knockoffs and the product will last. GReddy RB25 manifolds work very well. We just did 300lb/ft torque at around 3 grand, on a bone stock, stock turbo RB25 with just an FMIC and GReddy IM yesterday.
Your "build list" looks like a 16 year old kid opened up a RB25 parts website and started randomly picking items out. 550cc injectors are a waste of money: 720cc or similar. AEM ems is garbage and will not work no matter what with your setup. PowerFC out of the box is not going to work. Nistune out of the box will not work. If you deal with an RB wiring specialist your engine can be set up with a few different sensors and rewiring of the main ECU plug to use a different ECU that is tunable and will run as factory, but with more power. Choosing the right shop here is important.
Why do you need a top mount manifold?Why a GT3076R? Do you know that you will not reach 450hp or close to it on such a small compressor? JUN Style manifold is garbage, probably porously cast, it will not work for you.
264 what HKS camshaft? What lift? Model number? Are they NEO specific camshafts? Is VTC still used as stock or does it need to be controlled with your cams?
Take some time and learn more about what is available and look at some RB25 builds and NEO ECU & Wiring options before you spend any money.
Explain yourself instead of talking trash.
Re: (krayton)
I guess the dyno was lying when I made 352whp on a paltry 10psi with a 62-1 with my AEM.krayton wrote:^ ditto
DAMN LYING DYNOS! THE AEM IS GARBAGE!
Re: Aem ems VS. Apexi power fc (SamuraiSam)
The irony of your post is wellSamuraiSam wrote:Well unfortunately there is a ton of completely incorrect information in this thread in almost every single post and I don't have the time to sift through all of it.
You will need to decide how much HP and torque and what kind of a powerband you actually want. If you are daily driving then a 400 or 450hp, light weight rear wheel drive, fairly large displacement engine is a really bad idea. Especially if you ever encounter 'rain' or 'snow.' Step back, figure out what you are actually going to do with the car, and plan. A 350hp SR20 with NO low end torque is a fast, fun car. The RB25 is GREAT at making a lot of low end power and you will not have traction in third gear with more then 350lb/ft tq at the wheels, period.
We have been doing RB25 and RB26 swaps in S13 and S14 for awhile. The best way to do it is use a good intake manifold as you will make way more power then crap ebay knockoffs and the product will last. GReddy RB25 manifolds work very well. We just did 300lb/ft torque at around 3 grand, on a bone stock, stock turbo RB25 with just an FMIC and GReddy IM yesterday.
Your "build list" looks like a 16 year old kid opened up a RB25 parts website and started randomly picking items out. 550cc injectors are a waste of money: 720cc or similar. AEM ems is garbage and will not work no matter what with your setup. PowerFC out of the box is not going to work. Nistune out of the box will not work. If you deal with an RB wiring specialist your engine can be set up with a few different sensors and rewiring of the main ECU plug to use a different ECU that is tunable and will run as factory, but with more power. Choosing the right shop here is important.
Why do you need a top mount manifold?Why a GT3076R? Do you know that you will not reach 450hp or close to it on such a small compressor? JUN Style manifold is garbage, probably porously cast, it will not work for you.
264 what HKS camshaft? What lift? Model number? Are they NEO specific camshafts? Is VTC still used as stock or does it need to be controlled with your cams?
Take some time and learn more about what is available and look at some RB25 builds and NEO ECU & Wiring options before you spend any money.
You talk about how everyone else is giving him misinformation yet you clearly don't know WTF you are talking about in terms of the EMS info.
Nistune works (Type 4 board),Apex-i makes a plug-and-play R34 RB25 PFC,and while AEM isn't the best standalone out there. It's at least as good as a PFC and far from "garbage"
-
ATpossible
- Posts: 236
- Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:42 am
- Car: 1995 Nissan 240sx
Re: Aem ems VS. Apexi power fc
Is it possible to answer the original question for all rb's in general?
Aside from his setup and asking if it is good for "him", maybe just answering the question, if possible, in general terms will help him and others out.
I for one have the same problem right now choosing between the two. I would like to know which is the better stand alone, period.
I've heard that aem has infinitely more options etc.. than the power fc but that a power fc would do just fine for a street/strip car not making more than 500whp.
Aside from his setup and asking if it is good for "him", maybe just answering the question, if possible, in general terms will help him and others out.
I for one have the same problem right now choosing between the two. I would like to know which is the better stand alone, period.
I've heard that aem has infinitely more options etc.. than the power fc but that a power fc would do just fine for a street/strip car not making more than 500whp.
-
USMCgetsome
- Posts: 2030
- Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 7:38 pm
- Car: OWN S13.5 RB25DET/2003 G35
- Contact:
Re: Aem ems VS. Apexi power fc (ATpossible)
CARL I HATE YOU! Honestly gents carlh has the right idea. Although no one has stickied a post about rom tuning the rb25 series or using an rb20det puter on a 25 with rom tune. If so get it in this thread!
i guess rocking out 400whp+ right about now on stock ems is garbage...for me the pfc has proved to be too unreliable and generally hard to tune; the only 'easy' way to tune the pfc is to buy a datalogit or have access to the apexi software and neither options are cheap when you compare the total cost of the pfc + tuning equipment to say the aem.as far as the aem goes the issues with the cas sensor as well as little odds and ends here and there is also enough to make me a little wary of it; the software is very strong in some points but lacking in others...and for most people the aem is over kill and simply put a great way to gernade an engine if you have no idea of what you're doing.
-
SamuraiSam
- Posts: 66
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:47 pm
Re: Aem ems VS. Apexi power fc (eh?)
What do you do for a day job? How much experiance do you have working with AEM's, and also other standalone ECUs? To tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about?Any actual experiance humm. No, I've never turned a wrech or tuned a car in my life. LOL. The shop has been around for longer than I've been alive and I've tried out a few different EMS's myself.eh? wrote:
Do you have any actual experience or just talking out of your a**? APEXI makes a R34 NEO PFC and Nistune does work R34 NEO ECU's. The AEM works with ANYTHING
The AEM doesn't work. It has timing drift issues. Put a timing gun on the car before you tune, set base timing, and finish your 'tune'. Put a timing gun, better yet one your dyno can datalog, on the car and do a pull, and watch. Let me know if your in-EMS digital dash timing numbers line up with what the car is physically doing. I'd say around 50% are actually accurate. That should be ONE HUNDRED PERCENT.
This is another one of those things I've read about (since i've been tinkering and studying EFI since 2004ish) and only recently had the displeasure of experiancing. And I have played with AEM EMS's on a few turbo Hondas, and not had too many problems.
Nistune has issues with swapped RB25 harnesses in my experiance. The people making the harnesses are not doing things correctly, or there have been updates to the Nistune board styles since the last one I've been involved in. We find it easier to use a different ECU and rewire, but if there is a drop-in R34 NEO ECU daughterboard that works with no rewiring then I'm sure we will be trying that on our next NEO RB25.
Modified by SamuraiSam at 7:51 AM 3/6/2009
-
SamuraiSam
- Posts: 66
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:47 pm
Re: (Carl H)
Quote »I guess the dyno was lying when I made 352whp on a paltry 10psi with a 62-1 with my AEM.
DAMN LYING DYNOS! THE AEM IS GARBAGE![/quote]So what? Numbers are meaningless to me, unless I can sit on your dyno with a car I've tuned or seen on my shop's dyno the number is just useless. How about what's important on a tuned car: How does the car drive? How accurate is the hardware? How sure are you that you won't experience timing drift and blow your engine? What CAS are you running, the Mitsu? How do you have the AEM configured to pick up the 360 hashes? Or are you only picking up 180 signals? Did you swap out the CAS plates to AEM or Autronic's wheel? I'd like information on your trigger pickup.
The AEM is a reverse engineered old school British ECU with waste spark that AEM builds daughterboards for and redid the tuning software on. Yay. The PowerFC is reliable and 'easy' to tune.
Quote »The irony of your post is well
You talk about how everyone else is giving him misinformation yet you clearly don't know WTF you are talking about in terms of the EMS info.
Nistune works (Type 4 board),Apex-i makes a plug-and-play R34 RB25 PFC,and while AEM isn't the best standalone out there. It's at least as good as a PFC and far from "garbage"[/quote]The Type 4 board didn't exist last NEO swap the shop did. Sorry. The AEM is not close to as good as a PFC. The NEO R34 GT-T ECU does not work out of the box with the way most people wire their RB25 swaps.
Quote »I've heard that aem has infinitely more options etc.. than the power fc but that a power fc would do just fine for a street/strip car not making more than 500whp.[/quote]This is not true. AEM yes has more options, closer to a real full fledged standalone such as Autronic, motec, electromotive etc- however, you don't need any of these things on a street car or most track cars. There's absolutely no reason for a '500hp' celing with the PFC. There is no HP limit whatsoever with any true standalone EMS as long as it can accurately measure the amount of air going into the engine.
Modified by SamuraiSam at 7:53 AM 3/6/2009
DAMN LYING DYNOS! THE AEM IS GARBAGE![/quote]So what? Numbers are meaningless to me, unless I can sit on your dyno with a car I've tuned or seen on my shop's dyno the number is just useless. How about what's important on a tuned car: How does the car drive? How accurate is the hardware? How sure are you that you won't experience timing drift and blow your engine? What CAS are you running, the Mitsu? How do you have the AEM configured to pick up the 360 hashes? Or are you only picking up 180 signals? Did you swap out the CAS plates to AEM or Autronic's wheel? I'd like information on your trigger pickup.
The AEM is a reverse engineered old school British ECU with waste spark that AEM builds daughterboards for and redid the tuning software on. Yay. The PowerFC is reliable and 'easy' to tune.
Quote »The irony of your post is well
You talk about how everyone else is giving him misinformation yet you clearly don't know WTF you are talking about in terms of the EMS info.
Nistune works (Type 4 board),Apex-i makes a plug-and-play R34 RB25 PFC,and while AEM isn't the best standalone out there. It's at least as good as a PFC and far from "garbage"[/quote]The Type 4 board didn't exist last NEO swap the shop did. Sorry. The AEM is not close to as good as a PFC. The NEO R34 GT-T ECU does not work out of the box with the way most people wire their RB25 swaps.
Quote »I've heard that aem has infinitely more options etc.. than the power fc but that a power fc would do just fine for a street/strip car not making more than 500whp.[/quote]This is not true. AEM yes has more options, closer to a real full fledged standalone such as Autronic, motec, electromotive etc- however, you don't need any of these things on a street car or most track cars. There's absolutely no reason for a '500hp' celing with the PFC. There is no HP limit whatsoever with any true standalone EMS as long as it can accurately measure the amount of air going into the engine.
Modified by SamuraiSam at 7:53 AM 3/6/2009
-
SamuraiSam
- Posts: 66
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:47 pm
Re: (Carl H)
What was 'unreliable' about your PFC? The PFC is one of the most consistent, reliable ECU's available for Japanese cars. What was 'hard' to tune about it? The PFC is one of the easiest ECU's to tune in my experience (especially L-Jetro). What interface and software were you using? The PFC cannot be tuned with the hand controller, as you do not have access to all of the maps (t-map if you are familiar with old school Bosch Motronic terminology) only the corrections maps or C-map in most cases. An FC-Datalogit and software or Power Excel equipment is required to actually access all parameters, AFR target maps etc for your car to actually run close to correctly. If you played with some numbers on your hand controller and aren't satisfied with the result then no wonder, your car isn't close to being 'tuned'. Sounds like you are not totally uninformed on the pitfalls of the AEM unit but those timing issues exist even on cars where no CAS issue exists and on Hondas with the T1R Race Development crank trigger, still see actual timing and software-represented timing shift away and blow engines...Carl H wrote:i guess rocking out 400whp+ right about now on stock ems is garbage...for me the pfc has proved to be too unreliable and generally hard to tune; the only 'easy' way to tune the pfc is to buy a datalogit or have access to the apexi software and neither options are cheap when you compare the total cost of the pfc + tuning equipment to say the aem.as far as the aem goes the issues with the cas sensor as well as little odds and ends here and there is also enough to make me a little wary of it; the software is very strong in some points but lacking in others...and for most people the aem is over kill and simply put a great way to gernade an engine if you have no idea of what you're doing.
Any EMS in the wrong hands is a good way to blow an engine. There is a reason that it's always recommended to have your car tuned by a professional who will deliver a true calibration and has the proper equipment including... a load-brake dyno, detonation monitoring equipment, accurate wideband oxygen meter (not a $300 intro-level unit)...
See link in sig (pic of my 'office')