Aem ems VS. Apexi power fc

[BlackRB]

Yeah true, i dont have much experience about this stuff that why i'm up here ask people for idea and Carl, EH, and other has been alot of help. And yes i did ask around many TUNERS from Atlanta to Tampa and yes the list i got will work just fine. But i don't see how you try tell us that this setup dont work BUT DONT tell us way better way to correct it. I'm appreciate that if you can tell me that oh my setup is not right and i need to get this done and that done insteal of oh this totally wrong and that it. If you think this setup sound like a 16 year old setup, then why don't you tell me what is a big boy setup would be????????
Modified by BlackRB at 8:42 AM 3/6/2009

[Carl H]

i am well aware of the aem CAS trigger issue which is another reason why i have mixed feelings about it...the replacement cas trigger wheel does work wonders for ign pickup but still for a 'plug and play' system its kinda iffy to spend that kind of coin and not know exact results.as far as my power fc experiences go my rb25 pfc fried the number 4 ign driver on it...and my neo friend his pfc would not run consistently regardless of what was done and when we put a z32 maf on it...yeah consistent 10:1 afr everywhere regardless of load.as far as wiring goes i agree 100%, there is a reason why chiptuning doesnt work properly with some swaps and its due to wiring issues.with harnesses i convert they are 100% as per nissan spec and power is switched properly, i can gaurentee that every harness that i send out will cycle power properly and run 100% as it did in the skyline.

[BlackRB]

i am well aware of the aem CAS trigger issue which is another reason why i have mixed feelings about it...the replacement cas trigger wheel does work wonders for ign pickup but still for a 'plug and play' system its kinda iffy to spend that kind of coin and not know exact results.as far as my power fc experiences go my rb25 pfc fried the number 4 ign driver on it...and my neo friend his pfc would not run consistently regardless of what was done and when we put a z32 maf on it...yeah consistent 10:1 afr everywhere regardless of load.as far as wiring goes i agree 100%, there is a reason why chiptuning doesnt work properly with some swaps and its due to wiring issues.with harnesses i convert they are 100% as per nissan spec and power is switched properly, i can gaurentee that every harness that i send out will cycle power properly and run 100% as it did in the skyline.

To you what i should do CARL. Should i get AEM, PFC, or get my ECU chiped? If get ECU chip then where cn i get that done? Thank man

[eh?]

What do you do for a day job? How much experiance do you have working with AEM's, and also other standalone ECUs? To tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about?Any actual experiance humm. No, I've never turned a wrech or tuned a car in my life. LOL. The shop has been around for longer than I've been alive and I've tried out a few different EMS's myself.

I'm an Aircraft Avionics Techinican. So if you THINK you can talk down to me, I don't think so. I've have ZERO respect for "tuner" shops who think they know what there doing. s*** f***ing auto shops in general.I've had the RB25 for 7 years and I know like the back of my hand so don't try that s***. I also have S/N 0015 AEM EMS and I was one of THE first to complain about the CAS problem. I've has this EMS for FIVE years and I know pretty damn it well too because I ALONE TUNE IT. The problem has BEEN FIXED with the new CAS wheel.so STFU.What Standalones have I tuned? does it f***ing matter? I only talk about what I KNOW.

[eh?]

Are you f***ing kidding me? You have ZERO expereince on s*** and you want to act like a big dog? I guess Eric on FA feed you all the BS.

SamuraiSam Wannabe EFI Guru



Come back when you have real experince kid.showthread.php?t=190533

[krayton]

hahaha

but yeah, your wandering ign issue with aem has been fixed. simple disk swap and a change of cas setting a monkey can do, and your good

[WhatsADSM]

The Type 4 board didn't exist last NEO swap the shop did. Sorry. The AEM is not close to as good as a PFC. The NEO R34 GT-T ECU does not work out of the box with the way most people wire their RB25 swaps.

So like I said you were ignorant to the fact that it does exist so STFU about it.You clamor on about the timing drift and feature set yet don't even acknowledge that the neither the PFC or the AEM EMS have s*** for knock control which is in my eyes easily overshadows any lack of timing resolution (unless it was huge).

I will admit this is the first I have heard of any lack of resolution from the AEM in terms of timing, and when I had my car on a scope and the light the timing looked almost dead on.. Yea it may have moved a degree or so but it didn't look like anything that would hurt. How much are you claiming it moves? Once I get my car back I'll use static ignition maps and rev the car a few times and verify though.

This is not true. AEM yes has more options, closer to a real full fledged standalone such as Autronic, motec, electromotive etc- however, you don't need any of these things on a street car or most track cars. There's absolutely no reason for a '500hp' celing with the PFC. There is no HP limit whatsoever with any true standalone EMS as long as it can accurately measure the amount of air going into the engine.

I do agree with most of what is said here. But my opinion is why even move to the PFC, if you can do in on the stock hardware anyways.

[BlackRB]

The problem has BEEN FIXED with the new CAS wheel.

totally agree. I did read about it a while back. i think that most of the new AEM Ems purchase now come with the CAS wheel.

[jey_253]

Good point has just been made. Is there any of these standalones that have knock monitoring and control? Even my nistune for the ca18 had issues with this. Whats the current standings...i like to play with the limits so it huge deal for me

[WhatsADSM]

Good point has just been made. Is there any of these standalones that have knock monitoring and control? Even my nistune for the ca18 had issues with this. Whats the current standings...i like to play with the limits so it huge deal for me

The PFC and AEM technically "have it". However it sucks and you really can't rely on it... It is as useful as the knock monitor on the SAFC (if you have ever used one of those).

And I know EXACTLY what you mean. Knock monitoring is definately the most under appreciated and under utilized features for all tuning options right now. So many tuners rely so heavily on AFRs and EGTs, when in most cases what will end up killing an engine is knock. Surely as you begin to test the limits of the stock internals.

The NISTUNE really didn't have good knock control/monitoring? Please elaborate.

[jey_253]

srry didn't mean to thread jack...just caught it...;}

[eh?]

The PFC and AEM technically "have it". However it sucks and you really can't rely on it... It is as useful as the knock monitor on the SAFC (if you have ever used one of those).

And I know EXACTLY what you mean. Knock monitoring is definately the most under appreciated and under utilized features for all tuning options right now. So many tuners rely so heavily on AFRs and EGTs, when in most cases what will end up killing an engine is knock. Surely as you begin to test the limits of the stock internals.

The NISTUNE really didn't have good knock control/monitoring? Please elaborate.

The PFC just shows knock but it can't do anything about it and it doesn't have an adjustable threshold either.I remember awhile back you said you were working on a knock amp, did you ever get around to it? I found a cheap kit from Australia that can convert knock freq's into a usable 0-5v for standalones. The problem is I think the low pass filter is too low maybe something like 7.5khz is better. This is the diagram if you're interestedhttp://www.siliconchip.com.au/...&i=10

[WhatsADSM]

The PFC just shows knock but it can't do anything about it and it doesn't have an adjustable threshold either.I remember awhile back you said you were working on a knock amp, did you ever get around to it? I found a cheap kit from Australia that can convert knock freq's into a usable 0-5v for standalones. The problem is I think the low pass filter is too low maybe something like 7.5khz is better. This is the diagram if you're interestedhttp://www.siliconchip.com.au/...&i=10

Wow suprised you remembered! Funny you mentioned it, I actually just got the PCBs in and had the parts came in a few days ago. So I will probably put one together this weekend. So the hardware side I hope to have done soon.

Then I'll have to work on the software a little bit, and I won't be able to try it out on the car until I get my car back from the body shop (hopefully end of the month). I'll keep you posted with progress once I get a chance to throw it on the car.

Thanks for the link. I took a quick look at what they are doing there. Definitely would work better than the standard knock circuit in the EMS, as it is essentially bandpassing 4.8kHz to 6.4kHz, and full wave rectifying it. So a simple bandpass frequency --> voltage. Not a very elaborate setup but would definately work better that one the EMS gives you out of the box. If you wanted to change the bandpass range you definately could with some changing of the resistors/capacitors in the high/low pass filter amps.

Mine will be even a little step up from that, since it is essentially digitally controlled. It will be based on a knock sensor IC http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tpic8101.pdfand it will bandpass filter on whatever center frequency you want (digitally programmable), but more importantly it will also be "windowed" so it will only look for knock when it knows it should be there (i.e. a little after TDC) and latch those voltages. That should help to really narrow down on the knock, and keep false positives to very little.

[BlackRB]

srry didn't mean to thread jack...just caught it...;}

You are find go head. Ask more question. As i read this stuff i learning new thing everytime. I'm still in the learning process so i read anything that is usefull. SO HEAD UP guys there are many more question will come from this way LOL.

[BlackRB]

EH? you guy start to confuse me now LOL. Where can i learn how to tune this stuff. SHOW me a good way to understand tunning procedure. Reading now problem, i can read this stuff all day long LOL. thank

[Carl H]

i dont know how nistune could _not_ not have the knock monitoring capablities...after all its a modified stock ecu.i will say this from tuning stock ecus...past 3kish and full load the knock sensor is ignored and it just goes off of the preset map.

[eh?]

EH? you guy start to confuse me now LOL. Where can i learn how to tune this stuff. SHOW me a good way to understand tunning procedure. Reading now problem, i can read this stuff all day long LOL. thank

You can buy a book called maximum boost by corkey bell. It's a bit outdated (imo) but it gives you a good fundamental base about turbocharging. AEM includes an "EFI basics" manual with their software pack, it's available on their forum.FA has a good thread about ignition timing here:http://forums.fresh alloy.com/showthread.php?t=71884remove the space.

[jey_253]

Thats exactly what happens there carl H. I learned tuning in the honda world and was use to be able to monitor knock under load. With Nistune it would just interpolate the normal fuel/timing maps with the knock maps and didn't give any actual "knock counts."

[Carl H]

the way the stock ecu works interms of knock is that its very forgiving interms of what it thinks is 'knock' the engine has to continiously knock before the switch over occurs and i'll tell you this when it does you most certianly know it.

[BlackRB]

Ok i realize that PFC is hard to tune just like everyone in here said, and alot of tuner out there said that PFC usually cost few more hrs to tune it. The case is that, i heard from different forum that PFC is very friendly use, and the AEM take less time to tune, but because it have more option in tunning that inexpensive user can easly blown their motor. My question was by the way the say "PFC is friendly use" can the PFC cause blown motor from a bad tune? I understand that tune is mostly for profession and to who ever they know what they are doing, but it just i want to learn how to tune alittle too, so could PFC is a good choice for first time tuner or AEM or not at all

[SamuraiSam]

info on rb25 issues zer...25det

EH? you guy start to confuse me now LOL. Where can i learn how to tune this stuff. SHOW me a good way to understand tunning procedure. Reading now problem, i can read this stuff all day long LOL. thank

I have over a dozen books on EFI and recommend "How to Build and Tune Engine Management Systems by Jeff Hartman" as a good 1st book to EFI systems. I also think Greg Bansh's book on the subject is good, and the Bosch bibles (Automotive Electrics and Engine Management Systems) are both indispensable as you further your career in EFI tuning and need to understand how later model sensors work, even auto techs will gather valuable knowledge from the texts.

However, the best way to spend your money IMO are on classes from EFI university. I took my first EFIU course in October 2005 and started tuning vehicles immediately thereafter. (Actually I was messing around with SAFC's, Hondata, PowerFC in FD3S's, and AEM's before I took the class, starting in around 2003 maybe, but didn't REALLY know what I was doing until after the class, even though I'd read a few books and played with FC Datalogit and Megasquirt software extensively.)

Here is an old cruddy cell phone pic of a few of my EFI related books

(Maximum Boost, Supercharged, and Going Faster have NOTHING to do with learning how to tune.)

[SamuraiSam]

Ok i realize that PFC is hard to tune just like everyone in here said, and alot of tuner out there said that PFC usually cost few more hrs to tune it. The case is that, i heard from different forum that PFC is very friendly use, and the AEM take less time to tune, but because it have more option in tunning that inexpensive user can easly blown their motor. My question was by the way the say "PFC is friendly use" can the PFC cause blown motor from a bad tune? I understand that tune is mostly for profession and to who ever they know what they are doing, but it just i want to learn how to tune alittle too, so could PFC is a good choice for first time tuner or AEM or not at all

I am having a lot of difficulty understanding your posts.

PowerFC is not hard to tune. Whoever is telling you this is an incompetent tuner, does not have the correct equipment, or does not understand how the PFC works. Anyone that charges more money to tune X car on an L-Jetro PFC than a (even boost compensation style tuning) MAP AEM box is stealing money from people. based Sorry for the bluntness.(I personally didn't really understand how the PFC works until after getting an FC-Datalogit, joining the Yahoo usergroup, and reading for months.) After figuring it out and playing with the PFC/Datalogit on a dyno for a few hours, I helped out on clarifying some issues in GTR-Dad's excellent FC-Datalogit tuning guide, and also helped on PaulR33's (mostly GTS-T) PowerFC info page. I have been gathering most of this info into a fc-datalogit/PowerFC Tuning wiki, which will someday be appearing in its subsection @ my site, http://skylinegt-r.wikidot.com/ or something.

No EMS is a good choice for a first time tuner, as you will probably blow up your engine.

Anyone talking about all this knock detection, real time knock control, ever try using a J&S Safeguard? They work really, really, really, really well. Even on really hot AIT, small displacement Roots blower stuff- absolutely awesome realtime ign control. There is also a lot on the table with ion sensing det. monitoring, and actually measuring and graphing Brake Mean Effective Pressure per cylinder over 720°......
Modified by SamuraiSam at 7:36 AM 3/10/2009

[BlackRB]

Cool. Thank alot for the help on the books pic and the advices. Bring to other subject, Yes it is true that some people around ATL charge alittle more to tuner the PFC than AEm. Cause i did call three places in ATL for PFC tuning and their all told me that it will take an average about 2hrs more to tune the PFC than the AEM. And two out of three told me it because the PFC is alittle difficult to tune. And i say exactly what they told that all. Thank agian.

[SamuraiSam]

Are you f***ing kidding me? You have ZERO expereince on s*** and you want to act like a big dog? I guess Eric on FA feed you all the BS.

Come back when you have real experince kid.showthread.php?t=190533

I don't understand what you mean. How are you judging my experience level over the internet? Your link is broken, by the way.

I've been playing with cars and automotive computers for a few years. I guess you don't understand 'sarcasm' as it applies to my self-deprecating humor-filled Facebook profile screen shot. Your loss.

Some pics of cars and stuff I've thrown wrenches at and pressed buttons on http://forums.clubsi.com/ubbth...04542

How many engines have you rebuilt? How many RB's? How many cars have you tuned? How many hours of dyno time do you have? Tell me how wrong I am, please. Tell me how little experience I have.

[SamuraiSam]

Cool. Thank alot for the help on the books pic and the advices. Bring to other subject, Yes it is true that some people around ATL charge alittle more to tuner the PFC than AEm. Cause i did call three places in ATL for PFC tuning and their all told me that it will take an average about 2hrs more to tune the PFC than the AEM. And two out of three told me it because the PFC is alittle difficult to tune. And i say exactly what they told that all. Thank agian.

Very welcome. What were the shops you called? Did you take a look at Apex'i's Power Excel tuner list? They are usually pretty good.

http://www.apexi-usa.com/dealers_powerexcel.asp

Balanced Performance is in Sugar Hill, Lethal Injection Motorsports is in Alpharetta.

[WhatsADSM]

I am having a lot of difficulty understanding your posts.

PowerFC is not hard to tune. Whoever is telling you this is an incompetent tuner, does not have the correct equipment, or does not understand how the PFC works. Anyone that charges more money to tune X car on an L-Jetro PFC than a (even boost compensation style tuning) MAP AEM box is stealing money from people. based Sorry for the bluntness.(I personally didn't really understand how the PFC works until after getting an FC-Datalogit, joining the Yahoo usergroup, and reading for months.) After figuring it out and playing with the PFC/Datalogit on a dyno for a few hours, I helped out on clarifying some issues in GTR-Dad's excellent FC-Datalogit tuning guide, and also helped on PaulR33's (mostly GTS-T) PowerFC info page. I have been gathering most of this info into a fc-datalogit/PowerFC Tuning wiki, which will someday be appearing in its subsection @ my site, http://skylinegt-r.wikidot.com/ or something.

No EMS is a good choice for a first time tuner, as you will probably blow up your engine.

Anyone talking about all this knock detection, real time knock control, ever try using a J&S Safeguard? They work really, really, really, really well. Even on really hot AIT, small displacement Roots blower stuff- absolutely awesome realtime ign control. There is also a lot on the table with ion sensing det. monitoring, and actually measuring and graphing Brake Mean Effective Pressure per cylinder over 720°......

Modified by SamuraiSam at 7:36 AM 3/10/2009

Thread hijack!J&S is based on the same SAE paper which I am implementing my knock control circuitry on.

Great to hear that it works well. I have heard the same from the miata community but never heard any results of one on an RB.

As for ion sensing the real issue is the hardware, and finding a coil where you can actually apply a bias voltage on the secondary, and still have a strong coil. I know some manufacturer's (delphi comes to mind) that had some documentation about coils with built in ion bias voltage circuitry... But I haven't been able to find anything available.

/Thread hijack

[BlackRB]

Very welcome. What were the shops you called? Did you take a look at Apex'i's Power Excel tuner list? They are usually pretty good.

http://www.apexi-usa.com/dealers_powerexcel.asp

Balanced Performance is in Sugar Hill, Lethal Injection Motorsports is in Alpharetta.

That is true Lethal is one of the exel dealer. I did spoke to them (they charge flat rate not hrs.). I have not call balanced performance, but i'll check them out later. Thank alot

[eh?]

I don't understand what you mean. How are you judging my experience level over the internet? Your link is broken, by the way.

I've been playing with cars and automotive computers for a few years. I guess you don't understand 'sarcasm' as it applies to my self-deprecating humor-filled Facebook profile screen shot. Your loss.

Some pics of cars and stuff I've thrown wrenches at and pressed buttons on http://forums.clubsi.com/ubbth...04542

How many engines have you rebuilt? How many RB's? How many cars have you tuned? How many hours of dyno time do you have? Tell me how wrong I am, please. Tell me how little experience I have.

You're not worth my time.

[SamuraiSam]

You're not worth my time.

What's not worth your time? What inaccurate information did I post? How did I manage to offend you, or hurt your feelings? My desire in this thread was to help anyone asking questions and provide the answers to those questions. Please show me where I mislead or was inaccurate. Otherwise, please get the f--k off of my back.

Your link that you threw out just after telling me I was wrong about something (Not quite sure what 'BS Eric' was feeding me.) Do you also happen to know more than Eric? Have you built better cars and worked at more reputable companies than XS Engineering, Apex'i, and Cosworth? Please share your wealth of knowledge- but if you could leave personal jabs out of your posts, the majority of participants in this thread would have less headaches and sleeping problems. Thanks in advance.

-Sam

UP Garage USA
Modified by SamuraiSam at 9:53 AM 3/13/2009

[rustbucket]

I dont know what it is about you samuraisam, but I just want to punch you in the face. I dont hate you, but its just something about your face that makes me want to puch it.

You spelled experience wrong about 800 times, this is how you spell it: experience

Whats the point of this thread? To show whos schiong is bigger? Supply information that helps other RB owners. If you dont know the correct answer dont post anyting.