Ok, so I have 2 tickets pending.
One for not stopping when exiting a parking lot (guilty)One for 40 in a 25 on the road just outside of the parking lot (not guilty)
This was during a scramble from a drift session in a warehouse area. We were all honestly leaving, RIGHT AS the lookout starts telling us to get out, so I go out onto the road, and as I step on the clutch out of first (didn't even top out first) lights come on, i shift into 2nd with no throttle and just pull over. Me and one other guy pulled over, the other people all ran and got away. Now I am going to contest the speeding for obvious reasons, but I am just worried about my chances being 16. The other person that got pulled over was issues the exact same tickets, is 31 and USAF for 13 years. Do you think that having him present at my hearing to cooberate my claim will serve any good purpose? Is this basically going to come down whether or not the judge is in a good mood or if I am convincing, or what? I can't afford points is all, and I can only take defensive driving for one.
Please keep this on topic, no bashing about drifting on open roads or something, there was literally no one there that we could see but the security gaurd who we talked to and he didn't care.
Advice from the expierenced people on tickets
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MaineExport
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If he told you it was estimated, and said there was no radar involved, and didn't show you a radar reading... then there is NO WAY they can find you guilty.
The state has the burden of proof. THEY have to PROVE you were speeding, and with no radar, it is basically the officer's word against yours. Since there is no physical evidence and you were not given the chance to see the evidence agianst you (as in a radar reading), if the judge takes the law seriously there is not enough evidence to convict you. In reality, you could probably get off on both accounts if it was only one officer and your friend testifies on your behalf.
Although... given your age the judge might be doing you and society a service by making an example of you. He may take the officer's word for it and find you guilty just for the sake of making an impression.
For some reason traffic court judges seem to have a VERY liberal and broad interpretation of the law. I have seen all manner of people convicted on shoddy evidence and completely bogus charges. I, however, have been very lucky and I'm 3 for 3 on contesting traffic violations! Then again... I do my homework and I have a BLAST in court!!
The state has the burden of proof. THEY have to PROVE you were speeding, and with no radar, it is basically the officer's word against yours. Since there is no physical evidence and you were not given the chance to see the evidence agianst you (as in a radar reading), if the judge takes the law seriously there is not enough evidence to convict you. In reality, you could probably get off on both accounts if it was only one officer and your friend testifies on your behalf.
Although... given your age the judge might be doing you and society a service by making an example of you. He may take the officer's word for it and find you guilty just for the sake of making an impression.
For some reason traffic court judges seem to have a VERY liberal and broad interpretation of the law. I have seen all manner of people convicted on shoddy evidence and completely bogus charges. I, however, have been very lucky and I'm 3 for 3 on contesting traffic violations! Then again... I do my homework and I have a BLAST in court!!
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C-Kwik
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I don't know AZ law, but I'd be interested to see how this stopping when exiting a parking lot reads.
As far as the speeding ticket, Mainexport is right. I won't repeat what he said, no need. But you may want to go as far as really attacking the officer's credibility here. Take a ball into the courtroom with you. Have a friend come with you if you can and bring a tape measure. Make arguments that question the officer's ability to judge speed visually. If he tries to establish that he is trained to do so, ask the judge if you can test the officer's ability to judge speed. If the judge says yes, have your friend come forward and throw the ball to him and then ask, how fast was the ball travelling. I guess he would say he doesn't know and you'll have all the evidence you need to disporve the officer's credibility. If he says a number, it would be impossible at this point to disprove his inaccurate judgement of speed. Admit that you can not tell and move on. Take the tape measure and from the ground, measure up to a certain distance. 5 feet perhaps. Make sure the markings on the tape measure point away from the officer so he can't read them. Drop the ball to the ground from 5 feet. Ask the officer how fast the ball was travelling. If he's smart, he'll ask at what point. If he's not, he'll state some number or say he doesn't know. If he doesn't know, just like before, this should be all you'll need. If he states a speed, say that he is wrong. The ball is accelerating so the speed is not constant. If he specifies at what point, you should be ready to calculate how fast the ball was falling at that point with some simple math. I do not know the equation or the acceleration constant of gravity off the top of my head, but you will need to find it. If the officer is smart and asks at what point when asked how fast it's falling, either pick any point or perhaps the moment before it hit the ground. After he answers, calculate the speed and it wil be very doubtful that he will be right. Buyt seriously, I doubt he will be able to say how fast the ball is travelling when you throw the ball to your friend.
You can probably make a verbal argument that is strong enough, but being that you are 16, you will probably be very nervous and may leave things out or have a hard time with it. Doing a visual demonstration that attacks the credibility of the officer will be easier to do and send a strong message.
As far as the speeding ticket, Mainexport is right. I won't repeat what he said, no need. But you may want to go as far as really attacking the officer's credibility here. Take a ball into the courtroom with you. Have a friend come with you if you can and bring a tape measure. Make arguments that question the officer's ability to judge speed visually. If he tries to establish that he is trained to do so, ask the judge if you can test the officer's ability to judge speed. If the judge says yes, have your friend come forward and throw the ball to him and then ask, how fast was the ball travelling. I guess he would say he doesn't know and you'll have all the evidence you need to disporve the officer's credibility. If he says a number, it would be impossible at this point to disprove his inaccurate judgement of speed. Admit that you can not tell and move on. Take the tape measure and from the ground, measure up to a certain distance. 5 feet perhaps. Make sure the markings on the tape measure point away from the officer so he can't read them. Drop the ball to the ground from 5 feet. Ask the officer how fast the ball was travelling. If he's smart, he'll ask at what point. If he's not, he'll state some number or say he doesn't know. If he doesn't know, just like before, this should be all you'll need. If he states a speed, say that he is wrong. The ball is accelerating so the speed is not constant. If he specifies at what point, you should be ready to calculate how fast the ball was falling at that point with some simple math. I do not know the equation or the acceleration constant of gravity off the top of my head, but you will need to find it. If the officer is smart and asks at what point when asked how fast it's falling, either pick any point or perhaps the moment before it hit the ground. After he answers, calculate the speed and it wil be very doubtful that he will be right. Buyt seriously, I doubt he will be able to say how fast the ball is travelling when you throw the ball to your friend.
You can probably make a verbal argument that is strong enough, but being that you are 16, you will probably be very nervous and may leave things out or have a hard time with it. Doing a visual demonstration that attacks the credibility of the officer will be easier to do and send a strong message.
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James @ ID-M
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I don't know much about AZ laws, but here in GA.. 10 over for a 16 year old.. and your gone for 3-6 months (license suspension). But, if you have a lawyer.. your chances of anything happend in traffic court are slim, and if something does happend.. it will be light. Good luck though, let us know what happends!
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Mr1der
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if you can, get you some traffic schoolin'
if not, chances are you're not gonna win in front of a judge, just remember to be even more careful the next time you play in a parking lot, or don't even try to run, the cop might be cool and just tell you to leave.
or he could be REALLY cool and be like "that's nice, but watch this!"
honesty is always your best bet, if you lie, they might be suspicious of even more things.
if not, chances are you're not gonna win in front of a judge, just remember to be even more careful the next time you play in a parking lot, or don't even try to run, the cop might be cool and just tell you to leave.
or he could be REALLY cool and be like "that's nice, but watch this!"
honesty is always your best bet, if you lie, they might be suspicious of even more things.
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Bubba1
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Hmmmm. Only 16 yrs old, and two tickets already. I know you don't want to hear this, but you need to rethink the driving attitude. Police don't hand out tickets for good driving. That's all for my flaming.
Now, contrary to popular belief, the officer is not required to have a radar in order to determine that you were speeding. If this were a 30 in a 25 ticket, of course you have a good defense as the difference in speed is too small to determine without a measuring device. BUT this officer cited you for doing almost twice the speed limit which is very easy to see. I assume you got the two tickets at the same stop. Sounds like it was. Bear in mind, if this were a simple running a stop sign citation, the officer would not need a video tape of you doing it in order to nail you. He just has to WITNESS it. Speeding is no different. If you intend to fight it in court, it's going to boil down to the officer's word versus yours. As a 16 yr old boy in a sporty car, you are already at a disadvantage for credibility. So you're going to have to come up with a VERY credible story that a judge will believe over what the cop saw.
For example, saying you accelerated brisky out of the parking lot in order to blend safely with traffic has a more believable ring to a judge than saying, "yeah, I'm guilty of exitting a parking lot without stopping, but I wasn't speeding and toss out some lame measurement analysis. I'll guarantee you'll be found guilty using that strategy. It doesn't take that many feet to hit 40 if you're already rolling.
I think you should certainly take it to court, but I suggest you plead no contest, which basically puts you at the mercy of the judge. If you come off as sincere, polite and repentant, they'll likely cut you a break and offer you a plea bargain. Regardless of how it turns out, and I wish you goodluck, , I hope you treat the experience as a wake up call to drive more responsibly.
Now, contrary to popular belief, the officer is not required to have a radar in order to determine that you were speeding. If this were a 30 in a 25 ticket, of course you have a good defense as the difference in speed is too small to determine without a measuring device. BUT this officer cited you for doing almost twice the speed limit which is very easy to see. I assume you got the two tickets at the same stop. Sounds like it was. Bear in mind, if this were a simple running a stop sign citation, the officer would not need a video tape of you doing it in order to nail you. He just has to WITNESS it. Speeding is no different. If you intend to fight it in court, it's going to boil down to the officer's word versus yours. As a 16 yr old boy in a sporty car, you are already at a disadvantage for credibility. So you're going to have to come up with a VERY credible story that a judge will believe over what the cop saw.
For example, saying you accelerated brisky out of the parking lot in order to blend safely with traffic has a more believable ring to a judge than saying, "yeah, I'm guilty of exitting a parking lot without stopping, but I wasn't speeding and toss out some lame measurement analysis. I'll guarantee you'll be found guilty using that strategy. It doesn't take that many feet to hit 40 if you're already rolling.
I think you should certainly take it to court, but I suggest you plead no contest, which basically puts you at the mercy of the judge. If you come off as sincere, polite and repentant, they'll likely cut you a break and offer you a plea bargain. Regardless of how it turns out, and I wish you goodluck, , I hope you treat the experience as a wake up call to drive more responsibly.
Here is the deal, I went down and basically got a 30 day continuence and have a trial in late Feb.
I was told the best bet, is to go in there, and tell the judge that I would like to take defensive driving, but that I do not feel responsible for the speeding, and plead my case. Basically if he drops the speeding, he should have no reason NOT to let me attend DD. If he sais "nope sorry kid", then he SHOULD let me choose which charge I want to take the DD for, in which case would be the speeding since it's 3pts vs 2pts, and more money for the fine.
I still have until Jan 22nd to just take DD for the stop sign, and just go court and pray.
The main issue here is not getting points on the license.
I was told the best bet, is to go in there, and tell the judge that I would like to take defensive driving, but that I do not feel responsible for the speeding, and plead my case. Basically if he drops the speeding, he should have no reason NOT to let me attend DD. If he sais "nope sorry kid", then he SHOULD let me choose which charge I want to take the DD for, in which case would be the speeding since it's 3pts vs 2pts, and more money for the fine.
I still have until Jan 22nd to just take DD for the stop sign, and just go court and pray.
The main issue here is not getting points on the license.
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Bubba1
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Toki, I don't think you get it. You don't set the terms, the judge does. You have no say in the punishment. If you tell the judge you don't feel responsible, trust me, he'll find you guilty immediately, as you are absolutely responsible for what you do behind the wheel. DD has nothing to do with disobeying traffic laws, and you were cited for disobeying two traffic laws. Now, if you tell the judge that you have already enrolled yourself in a drivers education course, he might take that into consideration and offer you a plea bargain. Sincerity, humility and remorse are powerful tools in court. You should consider using them.
Ok. Things may be different out here in AZ, but when you say "not responsible", it is the term for "not guilty" in a civil traffic case...I wasn't referring to any actuall fealings of responsibility, as I was not actually speeding. And if you say to the judge that you would like to take traffic school, it is just a general courtesy that he sais ok...it would be VERY odd for the request to be denied, you would have to piss of the judge pretty bad.
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Bubba1
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In any state, "not responsible" does not mean "not guilty". Not responsible implies you might have done it but you feel it's not your fault. Huge difference. Your butt was in the driver seat and you were driving. You face a conviction if you say you were not responsible for your actions while driving. If you believe you're not guilty, then you say you're not guilty. It's the same in every state. You're in Arizona, not a foreign country. And no judge is ever going to tell you not to take a driver ed course, especially when you're before him charged with breaking not one but two traffic laws. I hope you realize by suggesting the remedial drivers course, you're implying you're guilty even if that's not your intent. The judge will interpret that as suggesting a punishment, which ain't your job. I think you need to chat with your parents about this.
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AZhitman
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Here toki - Just so you know I'm not an arse (well, actually just to make you THINK I'm not an arse, cuz I really am....)
Check out http://www.speedingticket.net/board/index.html - Download the free book, it's really good.
It'll spare you a lot of abuse, and it JUST might keep your backside from being used as a ring-toss toy by big bad Dewayne.
Check out http://www.speedingticket.net/board/index.html - Download the free book, it's really good.
It'll spare you a lot of abuse, and it JUST might keep your backside from being used as a ring-toss toy by big bad Dewayne.
Bubba1 wrote:In any state, "not responsible" does not mean "not guilty". Not responsible implies you might have done it but you feel it's not your fault. Huge difference. Your butt was in the driver seat and you were driving. You face a conviction if you say you were not responsible for your actions while driving. If you believe you're not guilty, then you say you're not guilty. It's the same in every state. You're in Arizona, not a foreign country. And no judge is ever going to tell you not to take a driver ed course, especially when you're before him charged with breaking not one but two traffic laws. I hope you realize by suggesting the remedial drivers course, you're implying you're guilty even if that's not your intent. The judge will interpret that as suggesting a punishment, which ain't your job. I think you need to chat with your parents about this.
wow ok. you REALLY have a problem with reading comprehension. Let me see if I can't make this simple.
In ARIZONA (not a foreign country - I will give you that one) the verdicts on TRAFFIC VIOLATIONS are not "guilty" or "not guilty" you are either found "responsible" or "NOT RESPONSIBLE." When I say "NOT RESPONSIBLE" it is a "legal term." So now YOU (the guy who can't wrap his mind around this) can STFU (the the **** up.)
You whole reply is riddled with bull**** that doesnt make sense. Drivers ed and remedial driving. yeah. arn't those classes you had in highschool? I got my license certificate through a private company for insurance reasons, since my school is too small to offer drivers ed (and when they do, it's contracted through this company.) DEFENSIVE DRIVING is what you take ARIZONA to have ONE traffic violation REMOVED from your record. This does NOT imply guilt, it is the route every single person i've ever known takes on thier first ticket, and every subsequent one that they were elligable to remove with it (one every two years.) I hope you can understand this. It's some pretty heavy legal stuff....:rolleyes
p.s. greg are you comming down on sunday?
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Bubba1
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Toki, I will throroughly enjoy reading your upcoming thread when you whine about having your license suspended before you're old enough to vote, and wonder why your insurance costs have gone up. Your attitude makes it inevitable. I understand your VAST legal expertise at age 16. So by all means, please ignore every bit of my BS riddled advice. I won't be heartbroken. I will also happily rescind my wish for your good luck, as you obviously don't need it.
ive gotten more traffic tickets than i have fingers [yes, i have a complete set of fingers], and its not a matter of "your honor, i didnt do it, dont give me points"
here are your options-
plea bargain with the prosecutor/officer before your trial.
[in NY, if your ticketed by a local cop, your prosecuted by the town DA/ADA. if your ticketed by a state trooper, the trooper prosecutes his own cases]
hope the officer doesnt show up
[once again, in NY the officer DOES NOT have to show up unless its a state trooper]
the best option - HIRE A LAWYER!!!!!!!
here are your options-
plea bargain with the prosecutor/officer before your trial.
[in NY, if your ticketed by a local cop, your prosecuted by the town DA/ADA. if your ticketed by a state trooper, the trooper prosecutes his own cases]
hope the officer doesnt show up
[once again, in NY the officer DOES NOT have to show up unless its a state trooper]
the best option - HIRE A LAWYER!!!!!!!
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Kaioshin1982
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when I got my ticket for speed something... wasnt speeding, I just got the ticket coz I was going faster than what I should be going to the road condition (it was raining) but still not over the speed limit.... the officer did not show up the first time and instead of the judge dismissing the case, he just gave me another court date so that the officer can show up.
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AZhitman
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toki wrote:p.s. greg are you comming down on sunday?
If I did, you'd be getting cracked in the lip. Not a cool way to reply to someone giving you good, solid advice. On top of that, your reply was inaccurate on many counts as well.
One more post like the last one and you'll be joining the band.
<----- Disappointed.
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MaineExport
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Originally posted by IvoryJ30t "]here are your options-
plea bargain with the prosecutor/officer before your trial.
BAD IDEA BAD IDEA BAD IDEA BAD IDEA!!!
I have had MORE violations than I can count on my hands AND FEET... Every time I have been to court the DA has tried to plea me down and make a deal. I have NEVER taken the deal and I have ALWAYS been let off on all charges. This wasn't just a one shot deal.. this was THREE court visits on four charges! They are not there to help you out and that's the biggest mistake people make. They want you to believe that they are giving you a deal... when in essence they are making SURE they get a conviction. It helps their record and ELIMINATES the possibility of you getting off with no penalty!
The prosecutor is there for one reason... and that's NOT to be your friend!
hope the officer doesnt show up
That's always a possibility, but not likely. Most states give the officer a designated court date to deal with all of their cases for the month
the best option - HIRE A LAWYER!!!!!!!
Best option... but cost prohibative.
Contest the violation and take your chances... you CAN win this case with a little maturity and some good planning.
plea bargain with the prosecutor/officer before your trial.
BAD IDEA BAD IDEA BAD IDEA BAD IDEA!!!
I have had MORE violations than I can count on my hands AND FEET... Every time I have been to court the DA has tried to plea me down and make a deal. I have NEVER taken the deal and I have ALWAYS been let off on all charges. This wasn't just a one shot deal.. this was THREE court visits on four charges! They are not there to help you out and that's the biggest mistake people make. They want you to believe that they are giving you a deal... when in essence they are making SURE they get a conviction. It helps their record and ELIMINATES the possibility of you getting off with no penalty!
The prosecutor is there for one reason... and that's NOT to be your friend!
hope the officer doesnt show up
That's always a possibility, but not likely. Most states give the officer a designated court date to deal with all of their cases for the month
the best option - HIRE A LAWYER!!!!!!!
Best option... but cost prohibative.
Contest the violation and take your chances... you CAN win this case with a little maturity and some good planning.
I've had many tickets, a few I thought weren't legitamate, but i bit the bullet and paid every single one(5 moving plus 2 tint tickets) and have lost my licience once for 2 months, and am now going through a 3 month suspension that ends 20040604. But I guess I just didnt feel like fighting and took the consequences for my actions. i Have a work permit and am happy with that. My fault, I am currently working on driving like a normal human now :/
MaineExport wrote:Originally posted by IvoryJ30t "]here are your options-
plea bargain with the prosecutor/officer before your trial.
BAD IDEA BAD IDEA BAD IDEA BAD IDEA!!!
I have had MORE violations than I can count on my hands AND FEET... Every time I have been to court the DA has tried to plea me down and make a deal. I have NEVER taken the deal and I have ALWAYS been let off on all charges. This wasn't just a one shot deal.. this was THREE court visits on four charges! They are not there to help you out and that's the biggest mistake people make. They want you to believe that they are giving you a deal... when in essence they are making SURE they get a conviction. It helps their record and ELIMINATES the possibility of you getting off with no penalty!
The prosecutor is there for one reason... and that's NOT to be your friend!
hope the officer doesnt show up
That's always a possibility, but not likely. Most states give the officer a designated court date to deal with all of their cases for the month
the best option - HIRE A LAWYER!!!!!!!
Best option... but cost prohibative.
Contest the violation and take your chances... you CAN win this case with a little maturity and some good planning.
the one speeding ticket i was convicted on, i was charged with 59/30 and the court was really backed up. the officer was like "ill give you a deal if you plead out" so i haggled with him untill he offered 39/30. whatever. 39/30 is better than a possible 59/30.one time i got off of 83/55 because the trooper didnt show.
out of the tickets ive gotten ive been convicted of-
unsafe lane change39/30 speedunsafe startdisobeying posted signoverweight on a bridge [26650/10000]unauthorized commercial vehicle on parkwayobstructed sightseat belt
ive gotten about 18 tickets.
i was involved in an accident when i was 16, and recently when i fell asleep driving a truck.