Advance timing for hp increase?

[beechbone]

Has anyone heard of advancing the timing 2 degrees to get a big horse power increase? Dealer mentioned it to me and said he would ask his techs about it. He claims it will not decrease mileage.

[bhs07c]

After I read this post, I asked about it when I called in to schedule a service appointment for my car. From what I could get out of the front desk clerk, they know exactly how to do it but would never do it in an obvious fashion because it voids the warranty. I then called another service department and tried another approach. I requested a technician that is knowledgeable in aftermarket parts and modifying 07+ Altimas. They said they could arrange that so I'm gonna see if I can slip him some cash under the table and see what he can do...only if it's safe however.

[Alt.ImaCoupe]

The only way to do this would be to change the program on the ECU. It's not a simple twist of the distributor like the old days. I think the information you've been getting is cr@p IMO. You need something like the BullyDog tuner to modify the program.

[beechbone]

Interesting........the guy I've been talking to is the "internet salesman". He claims he was going to talk to the techs at his dealership and let me know the skinny. I will, in turn, let ya'll know. I'm literally days away from my car!

[bhs07c]

Okay..so I took my car in for my 20k checkup today and talked to one of the techs while the service crew weren't looking. According to this guy, the 2006 and below Altimas could be easily modded through a computer system...however, he said that there is a brand new software for the 07+ Altimas that he is going to take a look at..he plans to let me know next week. Also, he said 2 degrees probably won't make too much of a difference..but it differs from model to model. Anyone have some more input on this? I'd like to guinea pig this mod but I definitely don't wanna bang up the engine too badly..don't want to regret this later.

[Beak]

then dont do it

[dldjros69]

Okay..so I took my car in for my 20k checkup today and talked to one of the techs while the service crew weren't looking. According to this guy, the 2006 and below Altimas could be easily modded through a computer system...however, he said that there is a brand new software for the 07+ Altimas that he is going to take a look at..he plans to let me know next week. Also, he said 2 degrees probably won't make too much of a difference..but it differs from model to model. Anyone have some more input on this? I'd like to guinea pig this mod but I definitely don't wanna bang up the engine too badly..don't want to regret this later.

Very interested in this

im not sure what he is gonna do to your car though

i hope you dont slip him 200 bucks and he says go sit in the waiting room and then he "works" on your car. Placebo effect.

[rida4life]

I don't know about the 07+ Altima's, but I was a Nissan tech for a few years and i Advanced the timing on my 04' Sentra SE-R. The only difference is you will have to put Supreme gas in your can and nothing less. This was done by a computer we (Nissan Techs) have in the back for tuning and ECU checks or recalls. Now I really don't kno about the 07+ like stated above seing as im in da military now. But if it is done right you will see gains without harsh beating on your engine.

[mcheddadi]

power pup and triple dog GT tuner does advances in timing if you want to try it out

[beechbone]

I finally talked to a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy....Basically I was told that it is done through the computer. It's undetectable and there is no paperwork so voiding the warranty shouldn't be an issue. Seems like it would be detectable if the service dept. plugged into the computer and looked at the timing settings?? He said you would notice a bigger hp increase with the 3.5 but around 10 or 12 with the 2.5. Premium gas would not be required but not a bad idea every 4 tanks or so. I think I will drive my car for awhile (when I get it) and then try it out. I forgot to ask how much for the tweak.

[mrodrig2]

I finally talked to a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy....Premium gas would not be required but not a bad idea every 4 tanks or so.

No offense to you, but "this guy" sounds like an idiot blowing smoke out of his rear-end. How is premium gas going to help you "every 4 tanks or so?" You only benefit from premium gas while you are using it, it has no effect while its still in the pump at the gas station. What happens when your engine decides to detonate when you are on fill-up #2 lol. Stop getting advice from those jokers.

[beechbone]

I burn premium in my truck every 4 fill-ups or so because it burns cleaner and is good for the engine. That's nothing new.....This "idiot" I'm taking advice from is in the industry with experience. Let me know why should I take advice from you? I'm being serious, I'm fairly new to this mod business.

[bhs07c]

Maybe I can help clear some things up...Beechbone, you were right about the computer software. It is called Consult III and is plugged right into our cars (it is specifically desgined for our models). Like the 2006 Altimas and below, you can change some timing, rev limits and idle settings from there. On our 2007 Altimas, the program will only let you advance time 2 degrees. Now, normally at Nissan dealerships you have to pay $105 just to use the software but, if you find a tech willing to help you out you're in luck. I got my 2.5 done for $30 and he did it right in front of me. So, in conclusion, he set advanced the timing 2 degrees an(going anymore than 2 degrees could damage the engine) and then I believe (and I say beleive because it was hard to see the screen with the glare outside) he also pushed my rev limit from 6k to 675k.

Initial Review: For the price I paid, I absolutely love it. It's like the perfect mix between a noticeable power gaining pull and a "non-seat of the pants" gain (for lack of better words). In other words, there is more power in each gear and you can push your car further before shifting. At the same time however, I noticed a smoother acceleration, along with a better catch time between gears. I don't know about 10-12 horses but I would say around 7-8 horses for the 2.5L. Let's just say you can get to 60mph+ in second gear, no lie. Go for it guys, it's worth it! If you want, I'd be happy to post a video..but just keep in mind I've got an intake, exhaust, and the lightweight pulleys in as well.

[mrodrig2]

I burn premium in my truck every 4 fill-ups or so because it burns cleaner and is good for the engine. That's nothing new.....This "idiot" I'm taking advice from is in the industry with experience. Let me know why should I take advice from you? I'm being serious, I'm fairly new to this mod business.

Burning cleaner has nothing to do with regular vs premium assuming that you are using the correct, manufacturer recommended gas for your car. The gas that will burn the cleanest is the one that your fuel system is mapped for, whether that is 83, 87 or 93 is already set in the programming. What will clean out the engine is the detergents that are in the gas. And even in that case, the different additives go by brand and not by regular or premium since the major gas brands add the same additives to all 3 of their variants.

The real reason you would use a higher octane with the advanced timing is because you are igniting earlier in the compression cycle. To reduce the chance of excessively premature ignition, i.e. detonation, you run the higher octane gas which has longer ignition and burn times than a lower octane gas. Once the timing mod is done, your timing will always be advanced, so you will always need to use the higher octane if you want that insurance against detonation. That is why I said its useless to fill it up every 4 times. Hope that clears up my statements for you.

[beechbone]

OK, I think I'm smarter now. I greatly appreciate the input guys! Let me ask you this, mrodrig2, do you think the mod is safe if you run premium from then on out? Are you running premium, bhs07c? I thought the ECM adjusts timing to compensate for fuel changes? Maybe the ECM won't have the "range" to compensate for lower octane fuel if the timing is advanced?

[mrodrig2]

As I understand it, the computer makes instantaneous compensations and only when the premature or late ignition conditions are actually occurring. They are not permanent changes unless you get tuned and have the fuel maps (or those correction look-up tables, not 100% sure how the programming works) revised for the different gas. The difference in no tune vs tune is that in the former situation your computer is constantly making adjustments due to the advanced timing vs your computer already knowing how to handle the new ignition cycle timing.

I do not know how aggressive a +2 advance is for this engine, so I couldn't tell you what's safe or not. How safe it is depends on how many milliseconds earlier you are starting the ignition process and where the crank/piston positions are then as compared to where they would normally be in the cycle. You'd also need to consider how the air/fuel mix is changing and if the burn temp changes as a result. If the dealership is offering the +2 advance my assumption (more of my hope) would be that someone down the line did the calculation or trial to determine that +2 is safe enough to offer to the general public that only partially understands what a timing advance actually does with the engine.
Modified by mrodrig2 at 11:11 AM 5/29/2009

[strangebh73]

I burn premium in my truck every 4 fill-ups or so because it burns cleaner and is good for the engine. That's nothing new.....This "idiot" I'm taking advice from is in the industry with experience. Let me know why should I take advice from you? I'm being serious, I'm fairly new to this mod business.

ok after i read this i couldn't read anymore, there is so much miss information going around in this thread it isn't funny.

#1 on the advancing time in your coupe.

can it be done with the nissan consult 3 (the "computer" that can reprogram ecm, tcm or watch live data), yes

will it add horse power, no

why? you might ask? because it only affects it at idle.

I'm a nissan master tech, i noticed the ability to change ignition timing with the consult 3 when i was playing around with my own car, according to the engineers at the chicago hub, it only affects idle there for renduring it useless to all of us searching for more power.

also it can only change it 2 degrees. did i try it on my car, yes. did i notice any differance, no. did i have it dyno'd to check, no.

also on the "my car runs better with premium" and i run it every four tanks because it burns cleaner.

if your car runs better on premium and it wasn't meant to. then you have a large build up of carbon deposits (or you're a looney)

premium does not burn cleaner, in your 3.5 ac it's meant to run premium, in your 2.5 ac it will actually cause problems.

premium burns slower, so if your car is meant to burn regular and you burn premium, your losing power, because you're still burning fuel when you open the exhaust valve and there fore wasting fuel. The only reason to burn premium is if you raise your compression or turbos or nitrous, anything that will cause high heat.

So go ahead pay more at the pump and make your car slower, welcome to america land of the free and home of the uniformed.

sorry if i just repeated what someone else has already said.

[mrodrig2]

ok after i read this i couldn't read anymore, there is so much miss information going around in this thread it isn't funny.

...

will it add horse power, no

why? you might ask? because it only affects it at idle.

I'm a nissan master tech, i noticed the ability to change ignition timing with the consult 3 when i was playing around with my own car, according to the engineers at the chicago hub, it only affects idle there for renduring it useless to all of us searching for more power.

also it can only change it 2 degrees. did i try it on my car, yes. did i notice any differance, no. did i have it dyno'd to check, no.

Now you are the one that is spreading misinformation.

When you change the ignition timing, you either advance or retard the position of the crank/piston in the ignition cycle. This new position is the starting point all the time. Therefore it is in effect during idle and under load. Secondly, you can advance or retard the timing as far as you want. The limit is dependent on how much extra load the crank and piston can handle and how much cylinder pressure the block can handle.

[bhs07c]

I agree with mrodrig2...aren't "idle" and "ign timing" two sections under the Consult 3 programmer? I mean, I know my car just as well as you all know your own and just because advancing the timing 2 degrees doesn't make the most noticeable difference in the mod world when compared to other aftermarket products, doesn't mean it didn't make any difference. It's not a "seat of the pants gain" like I said before and really is only noticeable at the upper RPM limits of each gear. But a gain is a gain, and for $30 I think it was a reasonable mod. However strangebh73 was right about the degree limits... the consult 3 will not advance the timing any more than 2 degrees. As for the gas question, I filled up with 93 octane after the install however, I have no idea if it's gonna hurt or help me in the end. I think everyone is making good points and like everyone else, I'd like to know the real answers. I only filled up with 93 octane because I asked all my other friends who run advance timing in their cars what I should do...i guess that really won't help however, considering they own mustangs and corvettes lol

[mrodrig2]

the consult 3 will not advance the timing any more than 2 degrees.

Thanks for clearing that up, I wasn't aware that they prevented you from doing more than +/-2. I wonder if this is a limitation in the tuner software or in the ECU itself.

[ItsEcko06]

sooooooooooooooooooo has anyone done this yet?!!!?! i needs to knows!!!

[mrodrig2]

sooooooooooooooooooo has anyone done this yet?!!!?! i needs to knows!!!

read the thread man... a couple posts up bhs07c says he had it done.

[ItsEcko06]

oops, i forgot :]

but has any1 else attempted this? i don't really wanna go out and buy a bully dog tuner and spend 400 even though i know it does more than just adjust timing but is it possible that i go to my nissan dealer and talk to a tech that can probably do this? it is probably wise to bribe him with a cold brew, correct?

[mrodrig2]

WOW. You are really dense. Here, I'll quote it for you:

Now, normally at Nissan dealerships you have to pay $105 just to use the software but, if you find a tech willing to help you out you're in luck. I got my 2.5 done for $30 and he did it right in front of me.

[ItsEcko06]

geez

that doesn't answer my question as to if ANYONE ELSE has done it and what their experiences are. one guy's luck doesn't apply to every1

[AkAd3MiKs]

nvm....
Modified by AkAd3MiKs at 7:50 PM 6/5/2009

[strangebh73]

maybe i wasn't very clear on my last post (i've been feeling off lately)

when i say that it only affects timing at idle, i mean that the timing at idle is affected those 2 degrees. So when you put the engine under load it is not advancing it an extra 2 degrees.

thats why i'm saying it doesn't add hp, not that timing alone doesn't add hp. just this mod doesn't, the tuner that everyone is talking about will change your underload timing, therefore adding hp and possible spark knock if you advance to far.

and don't run 93 octane in your 2.5 unless your turbo or high compression, your just wasting money and losing a bit of performance

[BigDankCloud]

Will someone please explain why the advanced timing would provide a HP increase under load? More air let in by the valve? Fuel?

Spark Knock? What is that? What does that do to your engine? Is it at idle that that would happen or in normal driving conditions (under load).

[mrodrig2]

maybe i wasn't very clear on my last post (i've been feeling off lately)

when i say that it only affects timing at idle, i mean that the timing at idle is affected those 2 degrees. So when you put the engine under load it is not advancing it an extra 2 degrees.

thats why i'm saying it doesn't add hp, not that timing alone doesn't add hp. just this mod doesn't, the tuner that everyone is talking about will change your underload timing, therefore adding hp and possible spark knock if you advance to far.

and don't run 93 octane in your 2.5 unless your turbo or high compression, your just wasting money and losing a bit of performance

There is no separate idle timing/load timing like you are saying. Try reading on of these articles:http://www.team-integra.net/se...D=235h ... Kn....html

i think that guy was talking about the cam gear when he said to move it 2 degrees. Its been awhile since I was into these things but I remember on the cam gear itself, theres a setting that you can change from -15 to +15 or something like that. I think if you move it more on the negative side by -2 or something like that, you get better timing and a slight increase in hp. Damn correct me if im wrong but its something like that. I dont know about stock cam gears but I do know that the aftermarket ones came with different settings that you can adjust it to.

The cam gear/camshaft refers to the timing of opening and closing the intake and exhaust valves. We're talking crankshaft/piston timing in relation to the spark, i.e. ignition timing which is electronically controlled on the altima.

[strangebh73]

There is no separate idle timing/load timing like you are saying. Try reading on of these articles:http://www.team-integra.net/se...D=235h ... Kn....html

yes there is, they are talking about changing "base timing" the advance that the consult 3 will do, doesn't change "base timing" only idle timing.

on an old distributor car, when you moved the distributor advanced 2 degrees you moved base timing 2 degrees, so now your old (lets just say zero for sake of demonstration) 0 degree base is now 2 degrees. So now under load instead of being 19 degrees advanced your acturally 21 degrees. But now with the change of electronically controlled ignition you have ignition maps just like fuel maps. you can actually change the ignition advance for wot (wide open throttle). So with an aftermarket tuner you can set say 3,500 rpm to 4,000 rpm you are at 15 degrees advanced but at 4,001 to 4,500 rpm you are 19 degrees.

it's all confusing i know, but what i am saying is true. So if you would like to prove me wrong, go get a dyno run in, then pay a nissan tech to do it and run your car again. hey and if you live around southern wisconsin i'll even do it for free, just to prove my point.

email me [email protected] put "ignition advance for altima coupe" in the subject