97 Q45 Cai Dyno Results!

[maxnix]

Heres the full chart. - Terry

Terry,

Could you rescan eliminating the header? Perhaps I could read it then.

Thanks.

[Tgvince]

No i cant thats part of the print out. I can send you a higher res pic to your email if you want?

Terry

[Q451990]

[quote=" Tgvince [BNissan designed the car to be ultra quiet. You dont think that quiet design gave up a .5% in HP? I dont think thats unconcievable. [/quote]

Good point! I didn't think about that... so there's a major difference in the noise levels?

Heath

[Tgvince]

The Noise levels are really noticable outside the car but very mild in the car ( i had the intake installed for about 2 monthes).

Terry

[Tgvince]

The .5% should read 5%.

Terry

[AZhitman]

Good stuff Terry - I can't wait to see/hear the finished product...

[Jeff Williams]

Terry, thanks for the info. Since my '94 spends 90% of its life below 2500 RPM, and most WOT romps start out in that range, what do you give up, below the 2,700 RPM line?

I now have the K&N POP Charger, installed. I like the louder noise, and the sucking sound outside the car.

I had a CAI on my '95 SE V6 King Cab, and it woke that little puppy up. I just had to be extremely careful around water.

[Q451990]

Terry,

What kind of air filtration are you using with each setup?

Heath

[Tgvince]

The dyno pulls were made in 2nd gear. It took a few passes to figure out where the tech could get on it at WOT that it wouldnt downshift to first gear. If you look closely at the graph i posted it lost a little HP/Torque below 3K RPM's. There maybe some tuning still left in the CAI. But at this point i was going to get estimates together on having it produced the way it is. As for concerns with water ingestion those are valid with this setup as the filter is below the stock box location, I think you would have to submerge the front end of the car to cause a problem which seems possible in some locations:). The setup will use a 3" K&N cone style filter.

Terry

[Jeff Williams]

My Nissan kit had a splash guard, with a drain hole, since the filter was about 6" from the front tire. It seemed to do the trick. In Alabama, we have some terrential downpours.

I have seen some water blocking mechanisms for some CAI boxes in magazines, but have not put my hands on one, to see how it works.

[Tgvince]

I could look into getting the AEM Air Bypass valve as an option for guys that are concerned with Hydrolocking. Im fairly certian that AEM sells those seperatly. Go here if you want to see what im talking about. http://www.aempower.com/product_intake.asp

Terry

[Q45tech]

Try 3-4-5-6-10 stock dyno runs change nothing [touch nothing under the hood]! If you do them within 5-10-15 minutes of each other you will see the torque and HP increase [by magic] as the oil ATF, diff and tires increase in temperature.......asuming that the hood is open and cooling air blowing on the engine.

If you do the dyno runs with the hood closed [more accurate method ] you may get to a point where the power shows increases then declines as the underhood temps finally exceed the design parameters.......as the plenum heads heat up enough to change the incoming air density enough [each 11F is 1%].

One always reverts to unmodified after each modification as a scientific check........that friction changes are not squewing the results.

Dyno are great marketing tools to sell products unfortunately more than 50% of the published ones are not accurate [in my opinion] since the producer pays for the dyno time.

May people think published engine HP is accurate, maybe within 10% it is........They take 5 engines and dyno them, some companies use the highest, some the lowest, and some average........lots of pressure to shave decimal points here and there.

Chassis dyno are all we have to measure improvements, other than accurately timed quarter mile runs.

Mathematics and computer simulation is used for all engine design.............everything usually works out within 3% of projections.

The MAF [on Q] is extremely accurate at high flow rates and the translation from grams per second to horsepower has been proven time and time again the only unknown is the FMEP [frictional mean effective pressure] ....how much negative HP is consummed in setting the next cylinder up and ready to fire.

The main problem with chassis dynos is they don't consider the EXTRA load of air induced friction and how the engine behaves with this 10- 90 -130 HP load...............how can one size drum with varying tires and vehicle weigh simulate a real world acceleration on a road.

[Tgvince]

Try 3-4-5-6-10 stock dyno runs change nothing [touch nothing under the hood]! If you do them within 5-10-15 minutes of each other you will see the torque and HP increase [by magic] as the oil ATF, diff and tires increase in temperature.......asuming that the hood is open and cooling air blowing on the engine."

Have you ever done this personally? Id be glad to do this to your car:). I can assure you when its 105 degrees outside and 95 in the shop with 150 mile trip to the dyno at 85+ miles per hour the car was up to the max temp after the first dyno pull. The temp on the consult after the first run was 201 degrees. In my experience with Nissans on the dyno with the first three runs you get more HP after the 3rd your heat soaked hood open or closed external fan blowing or not.

One always reverts to unmodified after each modification as a scientific check........that friction changes are not squewing the results.

OK ill add that to my dyno testing procedure.

"Dyno are great marketing tools to sell products unfortunately more than 50% of the published ones are not accurate [in my opinion] since the producer pays for the dyno time."

So this does come down to me trying to pull a fast one to make a couple of bucks. Dont lump me into a catagoy reserved for companies like Stillen. 5%hp is the minimum this setup made, if you look closely at the dyno graph...But i didnt grab that larger number To "market my product". The methods you describe above are not far from "test to distruction". I have minimal dyno time as we speak with the Q, however ive dynoed my Turbo sentra in all differnt times of the year on at no less than 4 different dynos, is it plain coincidence that they were all with in 2-3WHP?

"Many people think published engine HP is accurate, maybe within 10% it is........They take 5 engines and dyno them, some companies use the highest, some the lowest, and some average........lots of pressure to shave decimal points here and there."

But this is why we established a baseline, right?

"Chassis dyno are all we have to measure improvements, other than accurately timed quarter mile runs."

My driving sucks so ill get a Gtech PRO and see what that says.I may attempt to run the 1/4 at the next "run whatcha brung" event...But i am afraid you will find flaw there as well.

"Mathematics and computer simulation is used for all engine design.............everything usually works out within 3% of projections."

Thats awesome, Im not trying to make a bunch of old men happy about there quiet luxury car...Im trying to find a couple % HP.

"The MAF [on Q] is extremely accurate at high flow rates and the translation from grams per second to horsepower has been proven time and time again the only unknown is the FMEP [frictional mean effective pressure] ....how much negative HP is consummed in setting the next cylinder up and ready to fire."

"The main problem with chassis dynos is they don't consider the EXTRA load of air induced friction and how the engine behaves with this 10- 90 -130 HP load...............how can one size drum with varying tires and vehicle weigh simulate a real world acceleration on a road.

Im not really sure how that coralates here? HP is HP. What your talking about is power to wieght ratio. So if i get a bone stock Q to race me in the 1/4 and i have the CAI installed if i beat him by a 1/10 or 2 then you could simply say its that 10% margin and i have a stronger engine or my fluids were hotter or i ran more tire pressure or or or....

This is where the DYNO comes in....Establish a baseline and then test the parts. Were talking about a very state of the art 238C chassis dyno not some hydro braked 1970 dyno.

Q45Tech...Where do you live? Willing to come to Phx to "supervise" my dyno tuning? Seriously. Or perhaps someone near the area that you would trust?

I am done with this discussion....Ill open a poll if i get enough guys interested ill continue plugging away... if not...the Q will continue having ZERO aftermarket support.And ill have one quick Q...

TerryWondering if this is all worth my time....

[1qckser]

Im sure that Nissan could have developed a air intake system that would have produced more HP, but at the expense of interior noise, so they went with the quieter sytem and settled for a lil less HP. Every vehicle that has come from any car manufacture can be improved on, If it was not possible then the aftermarket would not exist, the Q is an awesome car I love mine and would never part with it, BUT things can be made better with some good ol american know how, I respect every thing you are saying and love reading your post, but it seems like you are disputing his claims with out ever seeing the product, he has shown dyno results what more can he do, If he would like he can send me a Intake and I will pay for the dyno runs here in CT myself and put it on a bone stock 97 Q, I have acces to a DYNAPAK, if you guys have never seen this click on the link http://www.dynapack.com/, here is another excellent article http://www.tprmag.com/issue/1/1_intakes.shtml

[1qckser]

HAAAAY thats my license plate dammmiiitt 1QCKQ

[AZhitman]

Fixed it Terry.

[PalmerWMD]

Fixed it Terry.

I was just gonna do the same thing.

Fred..:oface

[Gadgeteer]

For what it's worth (not apples to apples but an interesting thought nonetheless) a good friend worked on the Cam design for the Ford 5.4L V8. When the product team was putting together the design, several intake/exhaust, power compromising decisions were made as a result of feedback from the NVH group (Noise, Vibrations & Harshness).

The decision was made to create a slightly quieter, calmer engine in place of more power. It is the harmony of balance that the product designers try to achieve during the development cycle.

Again, not a direct comparison, just a data point that indicates that all out power and performance are not the only driving factors in auto manufacturing.

It is not a fair statement to say that if there was more power to be achieved, Nissan would have done it themselves.

It has been a very interesting debate though and more proof that Infiniti owners are passionate about their cars, and the value of this board spans many areas.

Just my .02 worth...Gadget

[Tgvince]

Hey gang, Got some solid number finally on the cost for the 97+ CAI. First off this cant happen unless i get a MINIMUM of TEN Confirmed orders. I have to pay for 20 units and i cant afford to front it all thats why 10 are needed. OK heres the specs on the kit. Black powdered coated, black rubber couplings and T-bolt clamps, K&N cone filter, MAF adapter flange. The cost will be $250 shipped in the USA for the first 10 orders. FYI the production design will vary slightly from the prototype. The most noteable place will be at the connection point to the elbow that connects to the thottle body...Instead of a funky reducing coupling the piping will be flared to match the diameter of the stock elbow. The 2nd change will be the MAF flange will be welded to one piece of the CAI pipe...this will save a coupling and 2 clamps...which will look alot cleaner.

Terry Vincent97 Q45

[PalmerWMD]

Terry this may deserve its own thread and since its an interesting tech news item as well I dont think it needs to go to BST anytrime soon.

Fred...

[Tgvince]

So what should i do? Im still trying to figure this forum stuff out.

Terry

[PalmerWMD]

-Go to Infinti forum ( the one u r in now)- "new topic"- "CAI for 97-01 Q45 finally available!-Gruop Buy!" or some such into the title.

Describe what you wrote above and u have official permission to put it in "Infinti general" Instead of Buy /Sell Trade for now as it is a new item of tech interest.

Fred...

[Tgvince]

Great! Thanks...Ill do it now.

Terry