$95 Ebay Intercooler

[Edub1]

I decided to take a chance on an inexpensive Ebay intercooler. I recieved it today and let me tell you, I don't think a better unit can be made. The welds are all spot on, the fins perfect and the aluminum thick and strong. There is nothing "cheap" about it except the price.

I took a chance with this because there is a situation right now in which the Chinese keep their currency highly under valued. This combined with cheep labor and a total disregard for intellectual property laws, means that they can produce super inexpensive items of decent quality. I'd even be willing to bet that many name brand units are simply these units in a different box.

Anyway, bottom line - this is a quality intercooler for under $100. God bless the Chinese.

ETD Motors.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...d=1,1
Modified by Edub1 at 9:11 PM 4/4/2007

[Chezedik]

Yeah, I have one, and I am definately impressed by the quality. And given that they almost have to be of the same quality, and that they have good welds, they must be just fine. I should know before the end of next month.

[WDRacing]

Do me a favor, do a before cooler and after cooler pressure test. I'd like to see what the actual loss is for the cooler. I'll compare it with my PWR. I'm betting it'll flow pretty good, the end tank design seem good. If it does leak, they are fairly easy to repair.

WD

[Not_a_sr]

only beef i have is that they are driving down the market and making it hard to sell anything and make a profit, especially for us brick and motar performance shops that push brand names along with these chinese cores, last year i was paying 95-100$ for them from a distributor and being able to sell them for 150-180, now i cant even get them for what ebay sells them at. its not worth 1-5$ profit per unit to mess with them even if i can get them. now noone wants to fork out 250+ for a garrett or sparco anymore which are far better cores internally. we can only go so low on prices before the bottom falls out.

[Edub1]

Do me a favor, do a before cooler and after cooler pressure test. I'd like to see what the actual loss is for the cooler. I'll compare it with my PWR. I'm betting it'll flow pretty good, the end tank design seem good. If it does leak, they are fairly easy to repair.

WD

I'm not going to have time to rig up something like that. I can tell you that if I hold it up to light and look in one end I can see to the other. The fins are all straight as an arrow and well spaced.

The only thing I can think of that could cause pressure drop would be poorly shaped fins as the rest is a simple matter of area and fluid dynamics. The only way I could see flow being increased is by using perfectly square passages.

These things are real simple devices, I'm quite sure this is a case of paying for a name.

[Chris@AMS]

only beef i have is that they are driving down the market and making it hard to sell anything and make a profit, especially for us brick and motar performance shops that push brand names along with these chinese cores, last year i was paying 95-100$ for them from a distributor and being able to sell them for 150-180, now i cant even get them for what ebay sells them at. its not worth 1-5$ profit per unit to mess with them even if i can get them. now noone wants to fork out 250+ for a garrett or sparco anymore which are far better cores internally. we can only go so low on prices before the bottom falls out.

True story. Its very hard to sell quality products now with the imitations that are out on the market. see the text below the next quote for more info.

These things are real simple devices, I'm quite sure this is a case of paying for a name.

Not true at all. Somebody in China decided to copy our intercoolers for the EVO8. It looked the same (except for its cast end tanks) and it even fit in the jig that we had for OUR intercoolers. Since then, many people have bought them and reported lackluster performance. It is still much larger than the stock core that comes on the car, however, on the dyno vs a stock intercooler we have seen LOSSES of 5 to 10 hp with this intercooler!

We also ran into another situation where we were putting a 35r on one our customers 2g fwd. We finished the build and the car would spool rediculously late, make horrible power and the intake charge temps were out of control. We chased the issue around for a while and then we decided to put a STRAIGHT PIPE in place of the intercooler. VIOLA the car spools up 800 rpms quicker and makes a reasonable amount of power for the short time that it is run. We eventually put a custom made intercooler on the car using the same core we use for the EVO8 and the car GAINS 85 HP and spools up much quicker obviously...

We threw the old intercooler in the trash.

I have more stories of similar occurances, I could go on for a while but I think you should get the point by now. Intercooler cores are NOT all created equal!

Modified by Chris@AMS at 8:22 AM 10/21/2006
Modified by Chris@AMS at 8:24 AM 10/21/2006

[crzycav86]

this is what they say for pressure drop

2~5psi@35psi; 0.2~0.5psi@15psi

I don't know how credible that really is though.

[Chezedik]

Well then, how do some of the brands like JRC play into this?

[WDRacing]

I believe in the "you get what you pay for" but I also know companies jack the prices up, sometimes quite a bit. Look at HKS for example. Very good product, but at a very high price. I shop along the mid level I guess. I will however, pay quite a bit more for customer service. This is where alot of the cheap Ebay companies lack.

To me, buying in bulk is how you get items for a "better" deal. I've studdied bussiness andd accounting etc, there is a huge difference between buying in bulk to provide items at a lower price and control the market, then buying alot of knock off items and selling them for cheap. The problem for us as a consumer is, the IC's don't fail, so we can't see anything negative coming from the purchase of said cheap items. But compare the two on a dyno back to back, I'm sure we'll see the difference.

I'm all about helping out the small bussiness guy. I'm new to the venture myself and can relate to the dealings with big companies and whatnot.

To each his own, I'll stick with the names I know, or fabricate the item myself.

WD

[Edub1]

Ebay, the internet and computers in general have changed the way we shop and do things. Some people and businesses get hit hard by this. It is unfortunate but that's how things go.

As far as the intercooler construction is concerned; an intercooler is a radiator for air, the principles of it's operation are old and simple. Air is passed through multiple channels in order to maximize contact and surface area.

I'm sure there are bad units out there and I'm sure the wrong unit on a given car might perform poorly. It stands to reason that a large a unit will increase lag because there is a greater volume that must be compressed. Omiting a large IC should, as a physical rule, shorten lag; so your results are to be expected.

Likewise, a unit in with super small pathways or sloppy fins would be too restrictive and one with pathways too large would flow well but not cool well. The physics here can't get any simpler. If there is an explaination of a particular construction I am missing, it should be easy to explain.

Anyway, my apologies to those trying to make a living selling big name stuff - or the same stuff with a big money badge. If anyone wants to spend $400+ dollars on an air radiator that has been treated with majic name brand dust, be my guest.

I'm just letting people know that I have here a $100 unit that looks like it's built about as well as an intercooler can be built. What about it is more complex?

[Edub1]

Not true at all. Somebody in China decided to copy our intercoolers for the EVO8. It looked the same (except for its cast end tanks) and it even fit in the jig that we had for OUR intercoolers. Since then, many people have bought them and reported lackluster performance. It is still much larger than the stock core that comes on the car, however, on the dyno vs a stock intercooler we have seen LOSSES of 5 to 10 hp with this intercooler!

We also ran into another situation where we were putting a 35r on one our customers 2g fwd. We finished the build and the car would spool rediculously late, make horrible power and the intake charge temps were out of control. We chased the issue around for a while and then we decided to put a STRAIGHT PIPE in place of the intercooler. VIOLA the car spools up 800 rpms quicker and makes a reasonable amount of power for the short time that it is run. We eventually put a custom made intercooler on the car using the same core we use for the EVO8 and the car GAINS 85 HP and spools up much quicker obviously...

We threw the old intercooler in the trash.

I have more stories of similar occurances, I could go on for a while but I think you should get the point by now. Intercooler cores are NOT all created equal!

Modified by Chris@AMS at 8:22 AM 10/21/2006

Modified by Chris@AMS at 8:24 AM 10/21/2006

No offense, but this is what is known as anecdotal evidence.

I'm not sure what those cars are but it sounds like the IC was simply too big and created too much additional volume for a small turbo to compress. This explains the late boost, excessive heat from overworked turbo and poor performance as a result.

Perhaps a poor fit rather than a bad IC. I'm guessing something like a T25 with a huge FMIC ~ 12"X30"X3". Am I close?

[crzycav86]

I'm just letting people know that I have here a $100 unit that looks like it's built about as well as an intercooler can be built. What about it is more complex?

If you look inside your intercooler, you'll see that some of the charge passes through the intercooler, and some of it hits the walls where the ambient air must passes to exchange heat. You can probably see why this creates a lot of turbulence and pressure build up.

Among other things, top end brands like ARC are designed with sharp-angled walls where yours are perpendicular. This creates much better flow as the charge enters the intercooler.

There is a significant design difference between the ebay and expensive intercoolers.

[Chris@AMS]

No offense, but this is what is known as anecdotal evidence.

I'm not sure what those cars are but it sounds like the IC was simply too big and created too much additional volume for a small turbo to compress. This explains the late boost, excessive heat from overworked turbo and poor performance as a result.

Perhaps a poor fit rather than a bad IC. I'm guessing something like a T25 with a huge FMIC ~ 12"X30"X3". Am I close?

Wrong again. The core we took off was smaller than the one we put on, and the turbo was a GT35-r. In addition, these are pump gas numbers that we are talking about, IE. less than 400 whp. Not maxing out the turbo, and certainly not maxing out the size of intercooler that the customer had. The more boost the car had, the more amplified the problem became.

ALSO as I said earlier, the intercooler core that we made for the EVO8 looks identical to the one copied in china. There is no really discernable difference in the fin design or otherwise that you can see. HOWEVER, the other core preforms MUCH WORSE.

Sure it is just a radiator that exchanges heat for air. In that respect the intercooler works no matter what. However, like many things that are on a high preformance car there is bad, good, then better. There are many things that go into intercooler design. Here is some good reading related to the subject: http://www.are.com.au/techtalk/intecoolersMR.htm

I fail to see how this evidence is not enough to prove that all intercooler cores are not the same. I'm sure there are still some out there on ebay that are rediculously cheap and may work out very well. I am not willing to take that chance, just as much as I am not able to make a couple intercooler cores to test on my car to see which one works the best. It is for this reason that only brand name cores with some RESEARCH behind them from companies that I trust will go on my car or my customers cars.

[Edub1]

If you look inside your intercooler, you'll see that some of the charge passes through the intercooler, and some of it hits the walls where the ambient air must passes to exchange heat. You can probably see why this creates a lot of turbulence and pressure build up.

Among other things, top end brands like ARC are designed with sharp-angled walls where yours are perpendicular. This creates much better flow as the charge enters the intercooler.

There is a significant design difference between the ebay and expensive intercoolers.

Perpendicular to what, each other? No, they are wide where the openings are but taper up to the top.

The idea of passing a large stream of air through an intercooler of this type without turbulence is just plain silly. It is concievible that square end tanks could produce some standing wave issues and create problems, but this intercooler is designed exactely like the more expensive units.

Look at the picture.

I agree that there are times that you get what you pay for, but there are also times when you just pay for a name. Many name brand companies don't even make their stuff, they just put their name on it and mark it up.

Look, I didn't buy stock in the company and I'm not getting commission. I'm just trying to let people know where they can get a great intercooler for $100.

[Chris@AMS]

I agree that there are times that you get what you pay for, but there are also times when you just pay for a name. Many name brand companies don't even make their stuff, they just put their name on it and mark it up.

Certainly, you are absolutely correct here!

Look, I didn't buy stock in the company and I'm not getting commission. I'm just trying to let people know where they can get a great intercooler for $100.

The problem is, you don't know that it is a GREAT intercooler. Other than the price we dont have any proof that it is anything but a horrible chinese knock off look alike to another core that preforms well.

The only reason I am even in this tread is becaue I do not want people being mislead into thinking that all the intecoolers that you get on EBAY are the same cores you buy from companies like Spearco, ARC, Precision, and of course AMS.

We don't make our own cores either. We actually bought cores from several brand name manufacturers (not even from china) and tested them all with the same car and the same end tanks. We found the company that preformed the best and we still use them today.

[Edub1]

Wrong again. The core we took off was smaller than the one we put on, and the turbo was a GT35-r. In addition, these are pump gas numbers that we are talking about, IE. less than 400 whp. Not maxing out the turbo, and certainly not maxing out the size of intercooler that the customer had. The more boost the car had, the more amplified the problem became.

ALSO as I said earlier, the intercooler core that we made for the EVO8 looks identical to the one copied in china. There is no really discernable difference in the fin design or otherwise that you can see. HOWEVER, the other core preforms MUCH WORSE.

Sure it is just a radiator that exchanges heat for air. In that respect the intercooler works no matter what. However, like many things that are on a high preformance car there is bad, good, then better. There are many things that go into intercooler design. Here is some good reading related to the subject: http://www.are.com.au/techtalk/intecoolersMR.htm

I fail to see how this evidence is not enough to prove that all intercooler cores are not the same. I'm sure there are still some out there on ebay that are rediculously cheap and may work out very well. I am not willing to take that chance, just as much as I am not able to make a couple intercooler cores to test on my car to see which one works the best. It is for this reason that only brand name cores with some RESEARCH behind them from companies that I trust will go on my car or my customers cars.

That was an interesting advertisment. Good thing my unit has all the good qualities.

I don't know what you had on that car or what you did that made the difference but it is physically impossible for the two to have all the same geometry and fin design and perform differently.

What caused the difference magic? Seriously, can you explain specifically what caused the two units to perform differently? The answer should be obvious if the units were properly inspected. We are not discussing the space shuttle here. Maybe it had a leak you didn't see. Perhaps the fins were crushed in the middle. Point is, I don't know & you don't either. It makes just as much sense, even more sense if the physical appearance was identical, to suspect a faulty unit than to suspect poor design. Even if poor design was the culprit, I'm telling you this one is well designed. I am not a physicist but I have studied enough physics to know that concrete physical principles related to a given material and geometric shape do not change based on their name brand. So, if you are claiming that the two are constructed from the same material and have all the same physical dimensions, you must either offer an explaination as to what physical characteristic caused the discrepancy or admit that your observation is anecdotal.

I'll tell you what, why don't we just say that who ever beieves me and wants to save some money, here is a great unit for $100. Those who never trust inexpensive stuff can buy one from Chris.

How much are yours Chris?

[Chris@AMS]

I don't know what you had on that car or what you did that made the difference but it is physically impossible for the two to have all the same geometry and fin design and perform differently.

They didn't, and that is what I am talking about! They didnt have the same characteristics, which is what made them different. Who is to say that you can tell visually which one is better than the other. Have you even taken a look at the link I posted?

What caused the difference magic? Seriously, can you explain specifically what caused the two units to perform differently? The answer should be obvious if the units were properly inspected. We are not discussing the space shuttle here. Maybe it had a leak you didn't see. Perhaps the fins were crushed in the middle. Point is, I don't know & you don't either. It makes just as much sense, even more sense if the physical appearance was identical, to suspect a faulty unit than to suspect poor design. Even if poor design was the culprit, I'm telling you this one is well designed. I am not a physicist but I have studied enough physics to know that concrete physical principles related to a given material and geometric shape do not change based on their name brand. So, if you are claiming that the two are constructed from the same material and have all the same physical dimensions, you must either offer an explaination as to what physical characteristic caused the discrepancy or admit that your observation is anecdotal.

I am not trying to get into a physics argument with you here. There were no pressure leaks in the core. Bent fins in the middle of the intercooler? Guess again. They were not the same cores, and that is the point! The intercooler that was on the car worked ok for the turbo that he used to have on the car, which was 16g sized on low boost (very small for those of you not familiar with mitsubishi's). I still can't fathom how you can tell that the core is well designed by looking in at it from the openings on the end tanks. Check out that link I posted above, it should clear some things up for us.

I'll tell you what, why don't we just say that who ever beieves me and wants to save some money, here is a great unit for $100. Those who never trust inexpensive stuff can buy one from Chris.

I am not even trying to sell intercooler here. In fact, I never sell any intercoolers for anything that has to do with a 240. The only intercoolers we sell at AMS are for the EVO 8. If you think I am trying to advertise a specific core combination here you are wrong. Check out the cart on our website and you will see that I offer three cores. I put them up there incase someone was interested in them because we offer them, but not one person has bought one that I know of. It is exactly the same as the exhaust section of the website for the 240. I have some listed, have never sold one and do not think that we will in the near future. However, an exhaust is much different than an intercooler. A mandrel bent 3" pipe is the same as any other mandrel bent 3" pipe (disregarding any extra bends and the material it is made out of (stainless, mild steel)).

How much are yours Chris?

I'm not going to post up my website address with our intercooler that we offer. If you or anyone else is interested you can take a look for yourselves. I am not in this thread for sales. I am trying to help the community out becasue I like to see people with well set up cars! I could go on ebay, buy an FMU a turbo kit, an exhaust and probably not spend over $1000 dollars. All of the parts will look good (even if physics is considered) but the parts are CRAP, as has been proven by many people that have tried out and then discarded the parts that they bought from china via EBAY.

[9sec240]

Edub, I dont think that anybody is knocking your purchase. I believe that Chris is stating that without testing, its impossible to tell how good your IC is... All the ICs that are fabricated by AMS use cores that are PROVEN to provide superior cooling for the amount of pressure drop across the core.. The end tanks are designed to provide a smooth transition to and from the core.. the inlets and outlets are positioned and sized to best get the air charge in and out of the IC... Then they are pressure tested for any leaks... The cores that AMS uses are constructed for durability and can be subjected to high boost without splitting open or having welds break... The material used in the construction are designed for tranfering heat... The IC is designed to withstand vibration and sustain hits from road debris....

The "typical" China knock off is designed to LOOK like the original and that is it... It is typical for failures to happen due to poor construction and materials used.. It is also typical to run into fitment issues due to lack of tolerances....

Without testing your IC back to back against an IC with a PROVEN track record, its impossible to say you have a "great" IC unless your only refering to price and looks....

[crzycav86]

Perpendicular to what, each other? No, they are wide where the openings are but taper up to the top.

The idea of passing a large stream of air through an intercooler of this type without turbulence is just plain silly. It is concievible that square end tanks could produce some standing wave issues and create problems, but this intercooler is designed exactely like the more expensive units.

I didn't think I'd be able to explain it well. Here's a picture i drew to explain.

The inlet charge passes through the intercooler more aerodynamically.. reducing pressure drop and improving response and power.

[Edub1]

Hay Chris, that link you gave is an advertisment. Did that entirely escape your notice?

Also, I noticed you are now mentioning additional factors about your "experiment" such as "it worked fine with his old turbo." You see that is why your trial is anecdotal and not conclusive. If the IC worked well with his old turbo, doesn't that contradict your "piece of junk" theory?

Look, I'm sure there are certain designs that might be superior to others. I'm not debating that.

I am saying that 2 units of the same or nearly the same design with the same fin types are going to perform the same as a matter of physical law. I most certainly can compare 2 units and see that they are shaped the same and have the same internal design and from that I can conclude that they with behave the same.

In fact, most of that stuff about "flow" is kind of laughable to someone with any kind of physics background what so ever. What do you think happens to a 500CFM stream of air that comes from a 1.5" hole to a 3" pipe and into a 12"X30"X3" rectangle stuffed with a network of fins and back to a 3" pipe? You think it all just keeps shooting through like a bullet? If flow is so important here, why does everyone leave huge ridges in the coupling where ther IC pipes join? Don't you think that would cause turbulance? The answer is because 500CFM going through a 3" pipe is not moving all that fast. It moves even slower through a huge box. This is an easy calculation. Use a little bit of critical reasoning here.

The fact is, a lot of manufacturers make up a lot of BS that is nothing but overly technical jargon desined to make you think some simple device with negligable differences is high tech. I have an FMIC that is made identically to many more expensive units. There may be better ones out there but I'm sure this one will do the job.

If you are so certain that your unit is better, please tell us why. What feature makes it better? You have a legit bench test performed by an independant lab and writen up in proper format, post it up. Untill then you have no more reason than I to claim that your unit is better. You have no proof of anything.

What exactely was "wrong" with the old IC from your swap anyway? What was different about the one you installed? Or, was it simply "better"?

Anybody reading this is free to believe what ever they want and spend their money how they choose. I'm just letting you know that you can get a sturdy, carbon copy of the more expensive units for $100 from the link I posted.

And you can always spray Jerry Curl in there to help the charge slide through.

[Edub1]

I didn't think I'd be able to explain it well. Here's a picture i drew to explain.

The inlet charge passes through the intercooler more aerodynamically.. reducing pressure drop and improving response and power.

Now think about what you are showing in that picture. It looks like those angles could cause that effect. But they could only cause it in a direct line with the incoming air. Think of the air molecules as small bb's entering the inlet tube. The ones that hit straight on probably would maintain better flow on account of the sharp edges. But the ones that travel up the end tank would see no benefit as they are already bouncing around. If your IC was just a 3" tube, those might have an appriciable effect. Otherwise the air in your IC never maintains any molecular velocity like it would going through an intake port.

[SR20Essex]

“Buy Intercoolers with Confident, Your Satisfaction is our First Priority"

When someone types Confident when the correct word in that sentence is Confidence, some part of me gets a small tick, and I begin at that exact moment to loose confidence.

I know it’s just a spelling error, but it begs the question; what else are they going to get wrong?

I'm glad you lucked out, but that’s all it is. Don't bet on the Chinese to keep you in good with "quality" parts.

Also; people who live on 2 cents a day and make 4 cents a day are going to end up ruling the world; especially with everyone buying the crap they make.

[SeanC]

just to chime in i rock a $102 intercooler off ebay and it seems to work just fine with my set-up. once i get my haltech i want to put 2 ait bungs one on each side of the intercooler and log the differences. because lets face it all of the pyshics involed mean nothing without real world testing.

[WDRacing]

Lets not get our panties in a bunch here fella's. I'll never knocj=k a guy who does it for cheaper. I think I was arguing for both parties. I'll go cheap when I can, but I know quality when I see it. I've seen a Chrysler K-car run 10's with a multi stage subinjection system made out of hobbz switches and cold start injectors. Ran like crap, looked like crap...ran 10's.

Go your way and do it well. I'll see you at the finish line, hopefully I beat you there.

WD

[Chris@AMS]

Hay Chris, that link you gave is an advertisment. Did that entirely escape your notice?

There may be some advertising involved in that webpage. It can’t be denied that there is a lot of good info in that article, can there? Whatever the answer may be, it is not an advertisement for me and as such I don’t think it is valid towards me or AMS trying to sell intercoolers. I was merely trying to provide some background information about intercooling that goes a little too far into detail in places .

Also, I noticed you are now mentioning additional factors about your "experiment" such as "it worked fine with his old turbo." You see that is why your trial is anecdotal and not conclusive. If the IC worked well with his old turbo, doesn't that contradict your "piece of junk" theory?

When I say that it worked ‘fine’ that does not necessarily mean that it worked well. I will present another occasion that happened recently on the dyno a week or two ago. I have a customer with a bolt on upgraded turbo that came in a week or two ago to have his car re-dynoed and tuned with his new front mount intercooler that he bought off of his buddy. Previously he had an upgraded side mount intercooler that was from some other company. The car came back to the dyno having this be the only thing that changed. The car had a compression test done before he came to the shop and a boost leak test as well. The customer is very meticulous with the car and did not want to have any issues during his tune on the dyno. The car was put on the rollers and dialed in at the same boost level as before to the same a/f ratio actually. Timing was verified by an obd2 logger. The car was consistently making about 8-10 hp less than his previous dyno runs and was also spooling up about 250-300 rpms later. Adding a pound or two of boost to the car netted less than impressive results. The car picked up about 3hp per pound of boost and was making less hp than previously as well. The tests were all done on SAE correction on the dyno. After some questions I figured out which intercooler he had on the car. It was an XS power unit.

I am saying that 2 units of the same or nearly the same design with the same fin types are going to perform the same as a matter of physical law. I most certainly can compare 2 units and see that they are shaped the same and have the same internal design and from that I can conclude that they with behave the same.

Sure but which unit are we comparing your new core to? Again I would like to re-iterate that I am not trying to knock down your purchase but just looking for justification.

In fact, most of that stuff about "flow" is kind of laughable to someone with any kind of physics background what so ever. What do you think happens to a 500CFM stream of air that comes from a 1.5" hole to a 3" pipe and into a 12"X30"X3" rectangle stuffed with a network of fins and back to a 3" pipe? You think it all just keeps shooting through like a bullet? If flow is so important here, why does everyone leave huge ridges in the coupling where ther IC pipes join? Don't you think that would cause turbulance? The answer is because 500CFM going through a 3" pipe is not moving all that fast. It moves even slower through a huge box. This is an easy calculation. Use a little bit of critical reasoning here.

I share SOME of the same views you do about flow through intercooler piping. It is said that for every 90* of turn your airflow has to make that you will lose 1% of you hp in efficiency. This is one of the things that I have seen debunked on the dyno. I have cleaned up several nasty transitions with crazy bends in them only to realize no additional HP gain. That is not to say however, that a properly setup IC system will perform the same as a rag tag system put together haphazardly with a hacksaw. The more hp you make the more amplified these values become.

The fact is, a lot of manufacturers make up a lot of BS that is nothing but overly technical jargon desined to make you think some simple device with negligable differences is high tech. I have an FMIC that is made identically to many more expensive units. There may be better ones out there but I'm sure this one will do the job.

If you are so certain that your unit is better, please tell us why. What feature makes it better? You have a legit bench test performed by an independant lab and writen up in proper format, post it up. Untill then you have no more reason than I to claim that your unit is better. You have no proof of anything.

Sure, a lot of manufacturers make up a lot of BS about products to make it sound like theirs is the BEST. I certainly hope that you don’t think we are one of them!

I don’t think we agree on an intercoolers role in a turbocharged car. I think it is a complex device while your views tend to be a little different. Again I ask how you know that this intercooler core is in fact a copy of a brand name ultra expensive core. I really hope it is an exact copy of the world’s best intercooler in that particular size and you got a smoking deal on it. That would be great for everyone, hell, I’ll put one on my car!

I don’t have any DAC logs with millions of feet of data on intercooler cores, and I never will. I am simply trying to spread around some knowledge of what I have seen at the shop and on the dyno. No, I never put an IAT sensor in both sides of the pipe for a before an after, I didn’t need to, the results spoke for themselves. I tested these things in the same way that the intake manifold for the EVO 8 we make was tested, and guess what? Our intake manifold is the best on the market, We compared it directly to others on the market and it consistently made more hp over the entire power band because of all the testing that we did.

What exactely was "wrong" with the old IC from your swap anyway? What was different about the one you installed? Or, was it simply "better"?

I believe I have covered this above already. In short, the fin design was too restrictive, and the heat rejection capabilities were not satisfactory for the size of the core.

Anybody reading this is free to believe what ever they want and spend their money how they choose. I'm just letting you know that you can get a sturdy, carbon copy of the more expensive units for $100 from the link I posted.

Which unit is you’re a carbon copy of? Just to refer to that link that I posted one more time: The person who wrote all of that text does not deny the existence of the Chinese intercoolers, in fact he sold them! He has some interesting data that I will post below.

]3) Not all Chinese intercoolers are created equal. I can not stress this enough ! They do not come from the same factory. There are at least 8 factories that have contacted us with total different addresses & then there are different named companies within these addresses, which is how some flaunt the copyright laws that western compan - ies must abide by. A couple of factories make very good units, some are okay, & some are downright bad. To complicate purchasing further, some size intercoolers from the same factory are good & other sizes bad. How do I know this, we tested some 75mm units from an importer, which came up good in all aspects & unfortunately for us quite good in a couple of aspects, so they represented excellent value. We have sold a few of these without one complaint. They also imported some 90mm & 100mm intercoolers from the same factory. After getting some returned with vocal complaints because power output & response dropped when these were fitted (often replacing a 75mm unit), they sent one each up to me for testing. Just looking at them showed a close fin pitch. Results are listed below. We are talking all bar-plate construction with these imported intercoolers. The sad part of all this is there is no way of accurately listing who's who, most factories will stamp any name onto there product! Intercooler - Size Type Flow Rate-corrected Notes. Chinese 600x300x90mm. Bar-Plate - 3" inlet. 299.3 cfm Chinese 600x300 x100mm. Bar-Plate - 3" inlet. 330.9 cfm. ARE-610x302x91mm. Tube-Fin - 3" inlet 471.4 cfm. ARE-610x302x91mm Tube-Fin - 3" inlet 493.3 cfm. With our optional venturie plate option

4) A few intercoolers have weeps, or sometimes leaks, out of the box, which makes me think that they will develop more leaks ( maybe even if they don't have any when new) early in their life, with the rigors of hot-cold / press-ure - vacuum cycling of normal use. 5) Our testing & feedback from some reputable dyno shops suggest that the majority of Chinese 'coolers do a good job up to the point of being worked hard & then gains exponentially taper off. A couple of years ago, they generally had a basic fin design @ a course pitch in a small 'tube', meaning they had a low pressure drop but not good cooling efficiency, so do a good job for an engine with an efficient turbo operating in the low-middle of it's efficiency map. Try & run too much boost & they will 'choke' & pressure drop will soar. The later trend seems to be much closer fin pitch, but still in a small 'tube', restricting flow even more, & worse still 'choke' more at a comparative lower boost. The closer fin pitch which gives better cooling rates, would only increase performance if the tube length was shorter, as the cooling efficiency quickly exponentially decreases (we have placed probes @ 100mm increments along tubes of both air-air & dry ice intercoolers) & the pressure drop (more slowly) exponentially increases along the length of a tube, meaning there is a 'sweet spot' where cooling rate & pressure drop give maximum performance. Sorry guys, but our parchment 'for big is better' philosophy & the fact that the Chinese factories don't seem to have much technical inkling of how an intercooler works, means that allot of purchases will never give near the gains possible & some, well, they're just a waste of your 'cheap money' !!! 6) They really have there place in the market, are very good for anyone seeking a moderate power gain with a limited budget & for more gains than this, become increasingly more difficult to gauge if they will do the work you need , all this - is of course if you get a good one

And you can always spray Jerry Curl in there to help the charge slide through.

NICE

[WDRacing]

I told you so blah blah...as a reader I think you guys are p******. I can pick apart anything anyone says all day. Who wins in such case I ask? As far as I'm concerned I'm the only Genious in KAT...lol.

*EDIT* SOrry guys, it was late when I wrote this.

[DammitBobby]

Hey Chris,Your experience of bad intercoolers seems to describe my problem. I first bought a POS bd kit. Running FMU and 10psi the car pulled hard and spooled up fast. Since then I have upgraded JWT ECU 72lbs, AMS basic rebuilt kit, T3/T4E .48AR and running 15psi boost. I have not dynoed the car yet. The butto meter tells me that the car is not making that much more HP. Also it is slow to spool up. I am wondering if you could look at my data log and see if you think the problem could be my intercooler? I am using Zeitronix wideband with boost pressure option data logged. I have suspected a intercooler problem because that is old bd that I have not replaced yet.

[Chezedik]

WD, that is your second strike. This is the second time you forgot me.... HA!

[Edub1]

I'm perfectly fine with losing a little power if it means saving $300+ dollars. If I had that kind of money I'd have all sorts of stuff that makes more power. GT35R, forged internals, nitrous, full race manifold...

There is always bigger and better stuff a person can buy. This thing is $100 compared to $400+. Think of what else you could buy with that extra $300.

I do worry that this unit might be a bit big. I can see a poor fit affecting performance much more markedly than a supposedly "poor design." In fact, this unit has all the characteristics that were deemed to be high quality in that link you provided - tapering end tanks and the fins look identicle to the ones in the unit they sell.

I started this post because I wanted to let people know where to get a low cost unit that is at least sturdy and appears to be of decent design. I never intended for it to be compared to a part costing 4X as much.

If you really must have a side by side comparison, buy one and do a bench test.

[C-Kwik]

Edub1, if you read closely, noone is knocking your I/C in particular. Noone is praising it either. Many are just saying it's simply a coin toss in terms of what you get. Turbo parts are not the only places things like this occur. parts made in China definitely have the potential to be made with good quality. Many companies have what we consider high quality products made in China. they would of course either have more congrol over the process or influence the quality control by charging bad units back to the manufacturer, forcing the manufacturer to produce higher yields of quality products. Other companies may only be looking to produce sellable products. There can be a huge difference between making a quality product and a sellable product.