5 psi is here....and I'm not impressed

[SloS13]

what do you have in place for a fuel system?

Is it possible that you're running lean? any heat problems or anything?

[vuse1]

did you pick your turbo off of a saab or volvo or something like that? my friends civic is going through the exact same problems, but it sounds like you got itworked out. now im more interested in your turbo setup. what fuel management are you useing? if you don't mind email me a list of what it took to make you 95 240 turbo. im 17 too and want to turbo my 95 240!!!!! thanks

[email protected]

[MarkEmark]

I don't know what the turbo came off of, I thin it was off of an older 300zx. All that I'm running so far for a fuel system is a Bosch RRFPR...I'll be installing a better fuel pump soon, but I haven't been running rich or lean, it seems to be running perfect the way it is. No heat problems; I installed a really nice oil cooler and thermostat to try to help out w/ the extra heat.

Vuse1...my list of things I needed to turbo my car is no different than anyone elses....there's a bunch of FAQ's on this forum about what you need to do it...

mARC

[:: orion ::]

I hope that the extra power from an efficient FMIC and one more psi will give me enough power to be happy with...

It won't. It will barely be noticeable for you with that turbo with such low boost...

I would wager you'll pick up 10rwhp MAX...probably more like 6 (see #s below).

I felt NO difference going from ~6psi non intercooled to ~6psi with a GReddy FMIC...except smoother power as boost came on.

BTW - At ~6psi I made 224rwhp non intercooled and ran a 14.2 @ 100.7mph at the track - With the intercooler, I've yet to dyno, but ran a 13.6 @ 104.

3 extra MPH in the quarter indicates maybe 30rwhp gain at best - So based on my rough #s, I made 11.5rwhp per psi without an intercooler...and I'm now making 12.5rwhp per psi.

Why do you say it doesn't feel faster? Have you run it at the track???

Before I did my turbo, I installed a Z31 T3 with a JGS log manifold and an OEM Supra MKIII FMIC on a local S14, and it was FUN at 6psi (JWT + 370s). Lots of fun. So fun I had to own one myself...

Later - Brian

[MarkEmark]

But you said yourself you make 11.5 rwhp per psi...so turning it up from 6 psi to 7 psi will be 11.5 rwhp...I think i'll definitely notice that...and the intercooler has to be good for something, it will still cool the intake charge, and that's always good for power....the pressure drop should be negligible for 7 pounds.

At first when it was only running at like 4 psi with a clogged cat I said it didn't feel that fast. It definitely feels fast now at 6 psi with no cat...BTW, i could care less about track numbers...I'm not into that kind of racing....if anything, I'll be autocrossing it.

Marc

[implict]

I just rode in my brother's audi a4 1.8t, and he just got a new ECU program, and his car now has 15 psi of boost,

I dont think that the ecu raised his boost. Correct me if im wrong guys but i dont think that a ecu can change your boost.

[MarkEmark]

Okay, implicit, you're right...the vacuum gremlins changed his boost reading from 6.5 psi before he got his ECU reprogrammed to 15 psi...Trust me, the ECU or "chip" works wonders on cars that are already turbocharged when they're upgraded. The place is called APR, they're located in Alabama, and for $400, it give him a damn nice power increase.

Captain sarcasm signing off.

:pface

[:: orion ::]

But you said yourself you make 11.5 rwhp per psi...so turning it up from 6 psi to 7 psi will be 11.5 rwhp...I think i'll definitely notice that...and the intercooler has to be good for something, it will still cool the intake charge, and that's always good for power....the pressure drop should be negligible for 7 pounds.

Yeah, but my point was that at the same 6psi, you'll gain *maybe* 6rwhp by adding the intercooler. That's all...

And a 1psi increase from a T3 will be less than from a hybrid - Expect maybe 10rwhp per psi...

As for pressure drop, it will remain the same no matter the boost. It's not a percentage...

Where is your boost signal for the wastgate located???

Quote »At first when it was only running at like 4 psi with a clogged cat I said it didn't feel that fast. It definitely feels fast now at 6 psi with no cat...BTW, i could care less about track numbers...I'm not into that kind of racing....if anything, I'll be autocrossing it.[/quote]

Hey - Same here - I run auto-x and track days...But 1/4 time will give you a good estimate of power. I'm not a track whore (2.25 second best ever 60')...but it's good to know things are running well. With 6psi from a T3, you're looking at a 60-65rwhp increase, which you can measure via trap speeds. Remember, it takes certain amount of power to move a certain mass a definite distance...cheaper than a dyno to roughly test/tune, if you know your exact weight.

Later- Brian

[MarkEmark]

Oh well, 6 rwhp from the i/c and 10rwhp from 1 psi is still a good amount in my mind....

I'm reading the boost off of a vacuum "t" where the FPR is connected to...

My dad has the G-Tech analyst or whatever you call it, I think I'll do some tests with that...I'll post a video of the car accelerating (I'm taking it with my still-shot digital camera, but the sound will be nice)...you can all hear what the 240 sounds like with ONLY a downpipe lol.

It's still going to be a while before everything's up and running the way I like it, I'm still awaiting the intercooler, and I just orderd $150 worth of silicone couplers/reducers/hose clamps to make sure all my piping remains durable under boost.

Marc

[:: orion ::]

My car "felt" slower with no exhaust - I ran just an 18" downpipe, ended by the bellhousing...

Once I got the exhaust on, it felt quicker b/c the reduced noise alowed me to hear the engine, turbo, etc...it was purely visceral.

IMO, making all that noise and not hauling *serious* A$$ feels slow, although it's not...

Let us know what the G-tech (haha) says...

Later - Brian

[MarkEmark]

Ahh, quite the opposite with me. Since I'm running just the downpipe, I can hear the turbo spool soooo much better, it sounds like a jet engine....the loud noise kind of drowns out the sound of the BOV, however.

I think it hauls enough *** to backup the nasty sound she makes.

Why the condescending "haha" with regard to the g-tech?

Marc

[SloS13]

Isnt the main point of getting an intercooler to decrease the possibility of detonation?

[Onizuka]

and it gives you horsepower

[MarkEmark]

It decreases the chance of detonation by cooling the intake charge, and while it cools the intake charge, you make hp.

I don't mean to second guess you, orion, but if two identical engines and turbochargers are making different amount of boost, one 15 psi, and one 5 psi, the one with 15 psi will have hotter, more pressurized air the intercooler will cool to a certain temperature...and while cooling it to this temperature, the air looses pressure, hence the pressure drop. So if the hotter air is being cooled more by the intercooler with the 15 psi setup, then wouldn't the pressure drop be more than with the 5 psi setup, which doesnt have as hot as air, and therefore less of a pressure drop when the intercooler works to its max efficiency?

I have no idea, i'm just curious...Marc

[MarkEmark]

I did some tests today to see how hot the "cool side" pipe was right before the throttle body...it was 87 degrees ambient temperature, and the air entering the throttle body was around ~150 degrees at 6 psi...I didn't really romp on it that much, I'm sure up a really big hill it would get up to 155 or 160 degrees. Then I'm going to test it AFTER I get the intercooler and see how much the intercooler decreases the temp...should be interesting to note.

[MarkEmark]

I have the video for any of you who are interested...I don't know how to post it though.... it's in AVI format, it's like 22 secs long.Just leave ur email address and I'll fire it over.

Marc

[SloS13]

[email protected]

if its not too big, i can post it for ya

[_dk]

I dont think that the ecu raised his boost. Correct me if im wrong guys but i dont think that a ecu can change your boost.

you are wrong, but only about this one engine. boost is ECU-controlled in VW/Audi 1.8T's.

[SloS13]

I believe porshe's are too.

My friend beta-tests all of the APR A4 sofware and it definitly does in audis

[:: orion ::]

Why the condescending "haha" with regard to the g-tech?

Just b/c there's so many variables that go into calculating the HP wth that thing - If you don't have it level on the mount, if the road is slanted, lots of wheelspin, etc...

I dunno - I've only run a couple times with one, and the #s were WAY off what the car wold do at the track (gave my 15.9 or so when I was running 15.2s...).

As for the pressure drop - I'm under the impression that the majority of the pressure drop is due to restriction from the turbulators, not the temp change...?

Later - Brian

[MarkEmark]

My bad....it's the G-analyst, not the G-tech...much more high performance, it's not even mine, that's why I wasn't sure what exactly it was. They're all rather simple formulae used to calculate hp, acceleration, etc, and it's worked well for my dad who's used it.

I'm sure pressure drop has to do with the turbulators for the intercooler, but any time you decrease the temperature of a gas you lose pressure. I thought the pressure drop was a function of the flow through the intercooler. More boost=more flow. I have no idea though...

Marc

[:: orion ::]

Yeah - After a 2-minute scan of a few websites found by a Google search, it looks like pressure drop is due to the charge cooling moreso than the restriction - Seems logical enough.

I had never really done any kind of research into that before today - Not really a big concern of mine, for the boost I'm running...

Later - Brian

[MarkEmark]

I hate to admit it, but almost $2000 later, and I'm not nearly satsified as I should be. My brothers little 1.8 liter Audi is making my car look silly. I have no idea what it is, but my car is just not making the power. It's at 6 psi right now. When I was running it w/o a cat and just the downpipe at 6 psi by myself, the thing felt decently fast, a good part of that being attributed to the burly noise/sound of the turbo spooling. I recently had a pipe made to replace the stock cat (2.5") that went to a high-flow catco catalytic converter (2.5") that goes to the rest of my straight bend Tanabe exhaust (2.5"). 2.5" is by no means small; and the cat is high-flow and not till pretty far down the downpipe. The car is extremely quiet, and psychologically I think that's why it feels a bit slower...

However, driving with my brother today, 2nd 3rd and 4th gear, when I would floor it, it would see a full 6 psi from 3k-4k RPM, and then immediately at 4200 RPM, like clock work, it would drop down to 4 psi all the way up to 6000 RPM. It felt at 4k rpm like the engine was ready to do something...and then it just poops out and makes no more hp (actually less) up in the RPM'S where it should be making a ton.

I've learned many things out of this installation--one is to make sure I know EXACTLY what pieces came from what and how old they are. All that I know about the turbo is that it's an AiResearch T3, internally wastegated, and that its exhaust side has an A/R of .48. Now .48 is pretty low...but theres no reason in hell the turbocharger should be crapping out past 4k rpm.

I don't think there's a boost leak anywhere; I'd hear it. The only way to check is to measure the boost EXACTLY at the TB, and not off of the BOV (which is right at the beginning of the compressor pipes going to the "intercooler" (still not installed)). The intercooler pipes certainly aren't as efficiently designed as they could be...they're only 2" OD, and have numerous bends, but no kinks or anything, and we are talking about compressed air here...

My camshafts are aftermarket grind...but theyr'e nothing extreme. I emailed the guy who grinds them (Don Nimi of PDM racing,) and he said that these camshafts should have NO problem seeing 7 psi of boost. Now I know the valve lash is a little out of spec because of the custom shims I got, which could be robbing me of some power, but it shouldn't make that much of a difference.

Straight from PDMRACING.COM, the stock 91 cams are:STOCK 91 Cams - Intake - 207 degrees duration, .350 lift, Exhaust 215 duration, .367 lift.

And the ones I have (stage II) are...Stage II PDM Cams - Intake 219 duration, .379 lift, Exhaust 221 duration, .384 lift.

Could the cams be the reason I'm loosing boost past 4k RPM? If so, does anyone think swapping them out for stock cams would help?

Do you guys think it's time to upgrade the old T3? This has been horribly depressing...$2000 down the drain and she doesn't feel as lively as a $400 chip installed in a stock Audi. If I get a new turbocharger, I have no idea if it will fit, I'll have to fabricate a whole new intake for it, I'll have to fabricate a new outlet pipe for the compressor, AND i'll need to fabricate a new downpipe, which I just got done doing for $260.

Oh jesus. Someone please give me some good news/expert advice! Calling on C-Kwik, Orion, WDRacing, DaveEEE and all you other gurus. Please help!

Hopeless in CT,Marc

[SloS13]

Im not a guru, but i am an idiot, so I'll try to help as much as possible.

I cant comment on the cams, because i dont know. You say you're reading your boost off of the BOV? Isn't there a vacume hookup on the intake manifold or FPR you could use? That would help a lot. It would only cost a dollar and take 2 minutes at the most.

Have you checked your spark plugs to see what they look like?

[:: orion ::]

2 thoughts:

1) That turbine is choking the engine so bad it can't continue to force exhaust out

2) Turbo needs rebuilding

I'd say ditch the tiny, mismatched turbo...and get a decent Z31 T3.

Have you pressure tested the intake plumbing and manifold with a compressor...???

Good luck - Brian

[MarkEmark]

The bov line connects to a vacuum t....and the FPR connects to anothe rpart of this t, and the boost reading comes out of the third part of the t...

Not sure what you mean by pressure testing the intake plumbing with a compressor...but no, I haven't done that...

I have a friend with a newer, rebuilt T3 he was going to put on his Si that I might test out...

Marc

[:: orion ::]

To pressure test:

Block the turbo intake with something (I use a 3" soup can), and use an air compressor to pressurize the intercooler plumbing...Just use a vacuum line to inject the air. Pump up to 10psi or so and see if there are any leaks.

A small leak, or several small leaks, will not be apparent while driving sometimes...

Try that, let us know. Also, if you can, try the other T3 - If it's OK and yours is bad, keep it on there while you send you turbo out for rebuilding. Do a Google search for "Evergreen Turbo" in Ocala, FL - They are about half an hour away from me, and do damn good work from what I hear. IIRC, it's $300 for a rebuild...

Later - Brian

[MarkEmark]

Yeah, it turns out my friends turbo was almost IDENTICAL to mine.... exhaust turbine was .48, compressor was .42, except his is internally wastegated at 7 psi, and was in much better condition. So I figured I'd try it just for the hell of it, he gave it to me for $100, and I can easily sell it on ebay for like $150, so it was a good deal. It's almost installed...I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow.

When I was disconnecting the BOV, the part that plumbs back into the hot-side intercooler piping popped right off of it's fitting....which means it wasn't tight at all on the fitting, and since this point is RIGHT after the compressor, I think this may have been a bit of a power robber.

If his turbo doesn't satisfy me, I'm either a) gonna give up and just not care anymroe or b) get a newer turbo with different A/R..s what's the best recommendation for the KA's? I think it was something like .63 exhaust .58 compressor? Even so, I know the KA is a pretty big (2.4 liter) engine, but even with those small a/r's, it should NOT crap out at 4k rpm, maybe 5k...

Still no intercooler..one came and it's way too long...if anyone wants a nice 30x6x3 intercooler, it's yours for $300 you pay shipping. I think I might just say to hell with the intercooler and just go water injection for the detonation prevention...I tested the temp of the intake piping at 6 psi, and it was only 150 degrees on a 90 degree day...not very hot, so an intercooler's effect and "power" increase seem hardly worth the money. That, or I might just go with a small, cheap unit.

Any more input is appreciated!

Marc

[Onizuka]

core or core w/ endtanks? and who made it?

I still say, if your not satisfied with the power then something is definatly wrong with your system, dont lose hope too soon.

[MarkEmark]

overall length from tip to tip is 34.5". From endtank to endtank it's 30". Core is 25" long, 2.75" thick and 5.5" high. 2.5" inlets/outlets. It's some custom unit made from ebay, no name...extruded tube and fin. It's really well crafted, just too big for my application. If you're serious, email me for pics...[email protected]

Marc