400 whp Stock block Redtop - GT2871r .64 power!

[Priceless89]

Nice numbers!! How much did it cost for everything after the motor? Just a rough estimate would be fine.

[tripleJs15]

codyace:

How bad was the creep ? Was is at high psi only ?

also what thickness HG are you running ?

[codyace]

bleah, that setup is ugly. But there is something to be said for the beauty of functionality. Form follows function. How are you going to feed the WG flow back into the exhaust? I couldn't really get close-up pix of the outlet side of the WG.

Hehe. I guess it's not for everyone. I refuse to run a tubular crackafold!

I'm going to have tubing welded onto a flange, and just simply run it along the downpipe and reintegrate it downstream (18" according to corky bell)

I assume you are going to use a 38mm (based on Vapor's setup). How low do you think you can get the boost to go (at full throttle. I can almost smell the smart@$$ comments coming)?

How low, can you go? haha. Sorry, lame limbo joke.

The boost should be completley regulated by wastegate spring at that point. 10 psi = 10 psi, etc etc. I want to set it up for 10 with EBC off, 15 at medium, and 20-22 high.

Nice numbers!! How much did it cost for everything after the motor? Just a rough estimate would be fine.

A couple bucks. I stopped keeping track forever ago. I still know I'm under the cost of a used 350z, car included

codyace:How bad was the creep ? Was is at high psi only ?also what thickness HG are you running ?

Apexi Stock thickness, stock 86mm bore.

Creep? It happend all over. The only place it would somewhat hold was around 20, but I think that was namely due to the gate itself.

[Hijacker]

Which actuator were you using? The one supplied by garret or an aftermarket one like an HKS unit?

[idahotuner]

so the one that comes on the unit is set for 10psi ? am i understanding correctly?

[Alpha_Maverick]

OK, do you think the 38mm would be able to get the boost down to, say, 7psi (just in case a family member wants to drive)? Or would I need the 41mm?

[codyace]

Which actuator were you using? The one supplied by garret or an aftermarket one like an HKS unit?

Stock GarrettAftermarket Garrett UpgradeandHKS Adjustable

All failed for my setup after a little bit of working. Arm does have free range, I preloaded, didn't preload, made new brackets, checked with vacuum pumps....it was all hooked up right....3" downpipe and Greddy housing and everything right....

so the one that comes on the unit is set for 10psi ? am i understanding correctly?

It's adjustable. I have no clue what it would do 'as it is' as it doesn't bolt up with changing stuff around.

OK, do you think the 38mm would be able to get the boost down to, say, 7psi (just in case a family member wants to drive)? Or would I need the 41mm?

I couldn't give you an accurate answer with this. Potentially, but I am not sure.

[Alpha_Maverick]

The problem (obviously) wasn't the actuator, but the flow through the flapper itself. *sigh* if only it could be properly ported... or designed right to start with.

I know I should be able to find this elsewhere, but I'm a lazy SOB, so: do you know how big the internal WG passage is? I'm just trying to figure out how much more the TiAL will flow compared to internal. How much power do you think you are making at 10psi?

[DrifterProdigy85]

I dont know, i never had a problem with boost creep with either the 2871R .64 and .86 housings. Used with stock, megan, and tomei exhaust manifolds. Used with stock elbow and greddy elbow. Apexi AVCR Boost Controller. 2.75" Cold Piping, 2"-2.5" Hotpiping.

[codyace]

I dont know, i never had a problem with boost creep with either the 2871R .64 and .86 housings. Used with stock, megan, and tomei exhaust manifolds. Used with stock elbow and greddy elbow. Apexi AVCR Boost Controller. 2.75" Cold Piping, 2"-2.5" Hotpiping.

It may be due to the AVCR? We're running the same psi too....

I know it's not always safe to bank off of others, but there are certainly a good handful of people who have had creeping issues with the setup you and I both have.....

What's funny is that my car 'didn't' always creep or spike....only at different times...almost as if the W/A was weakening or something internally.

At 10 psi power? Maybe in the 280 range?

As far as the side of the flapper...I'd say between the size of a warter and a half dollar....

[DrifterProdigy85]

If the actuator was weaking internally, it would have a problem holding the flapper shut which would cause boost to drop off, wouldnt it? How old is your AVCR? I get a little bit of creep when im running the wastegate boost of .9 Bar. Itll creep to 1.05 Bar but any higher boost then that it holds pretty solid. I wonder if your boost solenoid just needs replaced.

[White Comet]

some of the issue might be the boost controller. i was told by a guy that knows his stuff that the greddy boost controllers are prone to boost creep because their solenoid is too small.

[tripleJs15]

Had the same problem with Gredyy, and a friend of mine said a good EBC should help will that but to a certain extent.

[White Comet]

^ true, the guy that sells on ebay as askme4parts has a shop out in cali called c tune where he supplies parts for drift teams like Just Drift and some of teh well known pros. my friend moved out there and has been to the shop a few times to by parts and talks to the guy online a bit. the guy from c tune said that the GReddy boost controllers are weak and known to failure. according to him the blitz controllers are the best out there, especially the blitz spec r since it has a dual stage solenoid. i havent fiddled with any thing besides the profec b spec 2 and experienced creep even at low boost settings, i'll see how my avcr does

[tripleJs15]

Funny I just posted that in another thread, Blitz or HKS gote my vote

And I'd like to know how it does as well.

[Alpha_Maverick]

OK, I've been trying to figure out why this would be and came up with this:

the wastegate has two surfaces with pressure on them: the flapper valve, and the WG actuator (WGA). When the WGA is connected directly to compressor outlet, it has full boost pressure pushing on the actuator, and engine back pressure minus exhaust back pressure pushing on the flapper valve. To make things easier, I'm going to assume that the pressure in the exhaust manifold is equal to the boost pressure.

With me so far?

OK, in order to hold "high" boost (higher than WG spring), the WGA is kept away from any pressure. The flapper, however, still sees pressure as boost builds. When the boost controller (BC) decides that it is time to open the WG, it requires very little pressure on the WGA to open the flapper valve, because of the increased pressure on the flapper valve.

Make sense?

Now, same setup at (attempted) low boost. The flapper valve is seeing much lower pressure, so when the BC decides to open the WG, it has to open up, and feed full boost pressure to the WGA. If the BC is setup with an internal bleed, and has limited flow, it may not be able to supply enough pressure to the WGA, to keep it completely open, resulting in more exhaust gas getting pushed through the turbine, ergo, boost creep.

Cody, your setup exacerbates this situation because of the extrude honed turbine housing. The housing makes it much easier for the exhaust to go through the turbine route, rather than the WG.

My proposed solution(s):

1. Get a higher flowing BC

2. Go external WG, which results in more WG flow at the same pressure. problem solved.

3. I think it might work while retaining the internal WG. Get the dual port WGA from HKS. It appears to have a minimum boost pressure of 12.8psi. I am still working on a way to make it lower (trim the spring? but then I'd have to recrimp the housing... i dunno yet). The dual port setup should allow you to have a lower "flowing" BC, without any problems. Although, it might hurt your response, since the BC would be trying to close the WG, instead of opening it, and if it couldn't build up enough pressure, it would cause the WG to open prematurely.

Just a few thoughts on the subject.

Edit: turbonetics has a dual port actuator ("Designed to be bolted up to the T3 Swing Valve assembly" a little fabrication, and it'll work) that runs at 5-10 psi. This would be even better, I think.
Modified by Alpha_Maverick at 10:26 AM 2/29/2008

[DrifterProdigy85]

I know for a fact that the Greddy Profec B Spec II is a piece of sh*t. Ive had brand new ones on my SR and would spike really bad and then i had a brand new one on a RB25 which ended up creeping from 10psi-14psi. I stand by Apexi and also HKS. My buddy has a HKS EVC EZ on his Supra and holds 24psi rock solid.

[codyace]

It's not the EBC.

I've changed selenoids with friends, and even rigged a oldschool blitz one in with the same result.

Cody, your setup exacerbates this situation because of the extrude honed turbine housing. The housing makes it much easier for the exhaust to go through the turbine route, rather than the WG.

That had crossed my mind, but gas flow is much like a fluid, and I'm not sure that the extrude induces that much greater flow through it, then out the WGA.

Then the other side of me says 'thats awesome, that means the extrude works just as well as I've been preaching'

2. Go external WG, which results in more WG flow at the same pressure. problem solved.

That's what I'm doing hehe. I know this will work

3. I think it might work while retaining the internal WG. Get the dual port WGA from HKS. It appears to have a minimum boost pressure of 12.8psi. I am still working on a way to make it lower (trim the spring? but then I'd have to recrimp the housing... i dunno yet). The dual port setup should allow you to have a lower "flowing" BC, without any problems. Although, it might hurt your response, since the BC would be trying to close the WG, instead of opening it, and if it couldn't build up enough pressure, it would cause the WG to open prematurely.

I used the HKS WGA. It worked ok to start, but eventually failed like the rest of them.

And IIRC when you trim a spring, you make it harder to compress more than anything.

Edit: turbonetics has a dual port actuator ("Designed to be bolted up to the T3 Swing Valve assembly" a little fabrication, and it'll work) that runs at 5-10 psi. This would be even better, I think.

Euro brand 'Forge' also offers one. I was wanting to try them out, but the external (freebie) and the service cost less......so I knew the lesser cost would definatly work....so I made that choice.

.....this is why I should have just got the water injection hooked up and not worried about it hehe

[Alpha_Maverick]

The more I think about it, and the more I research WG's, the more I think external is the way to go. I just wish there was a more "conventional looking" solution. I know that external WG is far more effective, but... that's not how nissan designed it! Not that Nissan's design is gospel, but I just wanted the engine to resemble "factory".

Anyway, if I remember your F/A post right, the setup you will soon be running is going to have the WG fed by only 2 cylinders (sorta). Assuming that less than 50% of your exhaust gas is being dumped through the WG, you won't have air flowing "backwards" to get out through the WG. As long as this is true, I don't think you will see boost creep. I know the NS111 turbine wheel is renowned for it's efficiency, but I doubt that it is that good. And even if it is, the TiAL should be able to dump enough air to negate the flow inertia of the other two cylinders, but the backpressure will begin to deviate between the cylinders, resulting in some screweyness inside the engine. That's OK, though, because this will (probably) only happen in low boost mode, and any imbalance will only be slight, and cylinder pressures/temps will be relatively low.

Does all of this seem right? I'm just trying to make sure I've got the theory behind all this.

*grunt* I still wish this could be done internally... Oh well.

Just a thought: What would the cost difference be to have the internal wastegate passages extrude honed as well, while it's there? Just a rough guess would be fine, I'm just thinking, while it's there, why not try it? It can't really hurt anything, can it?

[tripleJs15]

You can always attach a WG flange and WG to the Turbine housing route it back to the DP

Toyota's GTP race cars used this method

[Stripes]

WOW i would love to get on that once i get my motor in a running. how much did it cost for you to get your turbo honed? and wouldn't an ems be just as good as sending your ecu away for a tune?

[tripleJs15]

^ It all depends on who tunes the EMS

Anyone got any input on the WG on turbine housing ?

[Alpha_Maverick]

I had actually thought of that, but you still have the exhaust flowing through the crappy internal passages of the turbine housing, and exiting through the (relatively) tiny hole that the flapper valve usually covers, so, it's probably not going to be of great benefit. If you're gonna go to the trouble of mounting an external WG, just put it on the manifold, so it can really breath.

[tripleJs15]

Well in trying to keep it stock looking I wouldn't mount to the mani.

Also the WG would be mounted to the snail not through the internal WG hole on the housing.

[codyace]

As far as extruding the passages, there really aren't any. It's a simple flapper hole on the inlet of the turbo...no 'real routing' sort to speak.

AlphaMaverick: You're exactly right. Obviously some guys may think that just 2 cylinders bleeding won't work, but SO many cars are set up this way, that it will obviously work. The wheel is efficient, but a nice 38mm gate will kill enough gasflow to work just perfect

tripleJs15: It's a novel idea, but most cars with such feature have a huge gate port cast into the actual housing...

Touge': An EMS would work just fine, but cost my nearly 600-700 more to buy, and even more to tune....

[Alpha_Maverick]

I hadn't taken a really close look at the internal WG, so I wasn't sure how it was routed. So it's basically just a hole drilled in the snail, with a flapper valve over it, correct? I was thinking it might have been a separate passage beside the snail. Not really sure why I thought that, though.

I think I'm gonna use an EMS, just for the additional options (boost per gear, launch control, "antilag", etc.) That, and I want to be the one to actually "tune" my car. I might blow it up, I might not. That's called "learning" . The more research you do before your project, the less expensive your goals become.

[MagbeeA4]

very nice on a stock bottom end hope she stays together hope you got head studs at least

[codyace]

I hadn't taken a really close look at the internal WG, so I wasn't sure how it was routed. So it's basically just a hole drilled in the snail, with a flapper valve over it, correct? I was thinking it might have been a separate passage beside the snail. Not really sure why I thought that, though.

I'd send you a pic, but the server is down right now (DOH!) It literally is 'just' a hole in the side of the flow path, direct into the exhaust opening.

I think I'm gonna use an EMS, just for the additional options (boost per gear, launch control, "antilag", etc.) That, and I want to be the one to actually "tune" my car. I might blow it up, I might not. That's called "learning" . The more research you do before your project, the less expensive your goals become.

There are certainly nice things about an EMS, but there are alot of cons for me as well. I simply don't have the time nor want (i know, that sounds awful) to learn about the EMS and or how to tune my car at the car moment. Maybe when I'm older or am not in school or etc etc....

For me, the biggest advantage is the plug/play/go of the ROM. I'll never go over the HP I have now, and frankly, don't see myself chaning it for anything (this side of a TR30R or something).

If I were to ever create a deditcated track only car, that ran only on race gas and the sort....I'd look into an EMS, but my car is a street car at heart...so the stock ECU is for me hehe.

FWIW: My ECU has launch control, water injection, and Clark is working on an anti lag (sort to speak) setup for the the future. Should be great!

very nice on a stock bottom end hope she stays together hope you got head studs at least

Car ran graet for a year, popped a intake gromot up around an injector, went super lean at WOT and ate the piston.

Now it's got CP's on there, and been great for the second year. 3 to 4 HPDE days on both stock setup and 3 to 4 on the CP setup

ApexI HG and ARP's

[Emperor_Tha]

so I went to import intelligence today. I seen a s13 redtop a with a t28 and on stock manifold with a tail wastegate. Actuator was removed and the flapper was welded shut. Only problem i see is trying get a dump tube welded back to the downpipe or unless its an atmospheric wastegate. But all the exhaust is going to heat up the master cylinder. any solution on this?

[codyace]

so I went to import intelligence today. I seen a s13 redtop a with a t28 and on stock manifold with a tail wastegate. Actuator was removed and the flapper was welded shut. Only problem i see is trying get a dump tube welded back to the downpipe or unless its an atmospheric wastegate. But all the exhaust is going to heat up the master cylinder. any solution on this?

the wastegate vent would point towards the firewall. I'll be attaching my flanged pipe to that, running the pipe along the downpipe, and reintegrating it along those lines. I'm thinking of actually using flexible stainless steel exhaust tubeing (much like used on Semi Truck exhauts...flex pipe). TO use for the w/g reroute tube.

As far as master cylinder heat, it will create no more heat than stock, and especially no more heat than a top mount. I have my manifold swain coated, so I'm not to concerned about it. I will be looking into making a heat shield as well as getting some DEI wrap for the brake lines in the future.