240mm "home made" clutch

[huguetpj]

Mods: if this thread would be better elsewhere, go ahead and move it.

Unfortunately I fried my clutch last Dec at an event. It was slipping anyway :pface. I just crystalized the fibers and tore off about 35% of them on one side so it ain't that big a deal.



So I investigated on the net what my options were and I came across the White Bunny special over at fresh alloy. For those of you that don't know about it it all started with the idea of using a bigger Nissan clutch on a KAT. The best option turned out to be a 240mm turbo 280zx clutch assembly (stock 240sx is 225mm), although some minor mods had to be made to the flywheel. Anyway he ended up using a custom made tilton style light alum flywheel with the 280zx pressure plate. Don't remember if he was using the 280zx clutch disc or an aftermarket one. But if you change the flywheel and pressure plate you can use any 240mm Nissan aftermarket clutch.

Trying not to make this post too long, I started thinking. Since both the stock 240sx and 280zx flywheels had the same outer diameter (or the starter wouldn't work) what kept me from having the flywheel contact surface expanded to 240mm. Well... nothing. So this is the plan so far:

1. Purchased a 240mm KA 4x4 truck pressure plate which is supposed to have higher pressure than a 300zx but after seeing them side by side I'm kinda weary about this fact. Anyway, I'm gonna be adding a second diaphragm to it, in essence turning it into a high press pressure plate. On this point... the 280zx, VG30 and KA24/Z24 4x4 truck clutch assemblies are almost identical. So I'm using an old 300zx pressure plate diaphragm with the new ka truck pressure plate.

the 300zx pp on the left and ka truck pp on the right

2. I had the flywheel worked upong to accept the KA truck pressure plate and 240mm contact surface.I had 9 bolts made to secure the pp, 6 bolts are used stock

3. I bought a high speed circular saw disc, had it cut and will be using it as my clutch disc to which I'm attaching 6 pairs of bronce/ceramic pads. Is this what is called a 6 puck clutch?

I'll try and make a more complete write up on my site later, but I'm still working on the clutch. Estimated cost: $218

More pics: http://katcostarica.240sxonline.com/temp_clutch/

Observations suggestions are still welcomed at this point in time.

[C-Kwik]

Uhh? I admire the idea to try and build your own, but I'm not sure a saw blade is really made with the kind of strength to take on the loads of a clutch. Maybe do some more investigation into this aspect.

And is a 240 mm copper-ceramic 6-puck clutch disc not available from a clutch manufacturer? They don't tend to be too expensive. In most cases, copper ceramic multi-puck dics tend to be cheaper than organic performance discs.

[huguetpj]

Uhh? I admire the idea to try and build your own, but I'm not sure a saw blade is really made with the kind of strength to take on the loads of a clutch. Maybe do some more investigation into this aspect.

I wouldn't worry about this. The saw disc is rated for hard wood at 6400rpms, and this is for the teeth not the actual disc which should be more. If you look at the pic of the saw disc, to the right you can see the stock clutch disc. The saw disc is WAY more sturdy. Its probable I could even have issues since the saw disc is about 3mm in width. Also, the people doing bronze clutch discs over here have been using saw discs for a while. The problem is usually that the clutch center separates from the disc because they use flimsy rivets. That's why I bought solid iron ones and told them to use those. I'm also using all 24 rivet holes the clutch center has. Stock it only came with 16.

Quote »And is a 240 mm copper-ceramic 6-puck clutch disc not available from a clutch manufacturer? They don't tend to be too expensive. In most cases, copper ceramic multi-puck dics tend to be cheaper than organic performance discs. [/quote]I'm sure they are available, but I'm having a complete disc made for around $70 and I don't have to worry about shipping from the US and customs. And if later on I wanted to change to an aftermarket one I could.

What's the difference between copper ceramic and organic clutches?

[Nathan]

I think you should DEFINITELY send in pictures to the saw blade manufacturer, that could be some great advertising "Strong enough to be used as a clutch disk in a turbocharged, race-built engine" Other than that, very cool project, let us know how it works out

[huguetpj]

You should see what people here use to make performance parts...

[j-z]

well ill be damned. pure genius. let us know how it turns out. i will be needing a new clutch assembly soon as im bout to boost my motor.

[nismofan14]

lmao.....thats awesome. Hope it all works out for ya.

[McAdam]

NICE! on a side note, for the flywheel, you can use a 4X4 KA24E flywheel. it already has a 240mm friction surface area thing. I have found that SOHC and DOHC flywheels are interchangeable. i ran a SOHC flywheel on a DOHC motor and drove it across country with no ill effects. that was gonna be my plan when I was messin with KA's. 4X4 flywheel and a turbo 280zx clutch. done and done. I do like your idea tho! let us know how it turns out.

McAdam

[TrunkMonkey]

using that saw blade scares the **** outta me, but hey, if it works it works.

please keep us updated.

-demetrius

[Mr1der]

for some reason I was thinking about blowing a clutch and shooting the pressure plate through the floorboard, doubt it'd happen, but it's a good thing the blade doesn't have the teeth I suppose.

could this be the ultimate in home depot mods?

[huguetpj]

NICE! on a side note, for the flywheel, you can use a 4X4 KA24E flywheel. it already has a 240mm friction surface area thing. I have found that SOHC and DOHC flywheels are interchangeable.

The thing is that a new flywheel costs about $475 over here, special order only. And my flywheel is big enough to accomodate the 240mm friction surface. Hell, it costed me like $48 to have the flywheel worked and the blade disc cutted.

[huguetpj]

using that saw blade scares the **** outta me, but hey, if it works it works.

Still don't know why you guys worry about the disc. It's 3mm wide, used to cut hard wood and the teeth rated at over 6400rpms, so the disc should hold up. The stock disc is way more flimsy (although it is used with a single fiber disc instead of indivudual pucks), and the guys go make the ceramic puck discs here use even smaller saw blade discs.

I was looking at a CM clutch disc for a Honda the other day and they use a similar disc. Probably different material, but smaller width.

Quote »please keep us updated.[/quote]Sure will.

The clutch disc is finally ready. So now I'm working on disassembling the pressure plates and combining the diaphragms. Should be finished and tested late next week.

Current expenses:Saw blade disc - $12KA 4x4 pp - $436 puck clutch disc (labor + pads) - $63flywheel work - $24used 300zx pp - $24

Expenses to come:- New rivets or screws for pp - ???- Mechanic labor - $48

So current estimated cost: $214

[C-Kwik]

I wouldn't worry about this. The saw disc is rated for hard wood at 6400rpms, and this is for the teeth not the actual disc which should be more. If you look at the pic of the saw disc, to the right you can see the stock clutch disc. The saw disc is WAY more sturdy. Its probable I could even have issues since the saw disc is about 3mm in width. Also, the people doing bronze clutch discs over here have been using saw discs for a while. The problem is usually that the clutch center separates from the disc because they use flimsy rivets. That's why I bought solid iron ones and told them to use those. I'm also using all 24 rivet holes the clutch center has. Stock it only came with 16.



I'm sure they are available, but I'm having a complete disc made for around $70 and I don't have to worry about shipping from the US and customs. And if later on I wanted to change to an aftermarket one I could.

What's the difference between copper ceramic and organic clutches?

Hardwood is not actually all that hard. And it's not the speed that concerns me. It's the load placed upon it. Saw blades cut would by chipping very small pieces from it at a high rate of speed. The actual load on it is fairly low. In fact most saw don't have the torque necessary to ever break a blade from just sheer load. The saw motor will stall before that happens. A motor on the other hand places quite a bit of load in comparison. Most automotive motos make a minumim of 100 lb-ft of torque. High HP applications tend to make significantly more.

I'm not saying it can't work, I'd just be weary of it. If it does., more power to you. But I'd probably pay a little more for peace of mind. And as I've said copper ceramic discs are relatively cheap. It may be close to what you paid to do this in fact.

As far as the difference, copper-ceramic will look similar to the set-up you are using, where it has several pucks rather than a continuous surface. And it is made of a copper and ceramic compound. I wasn't sure what material you are using. Organic is what you had and burned out already.

[huguetpj]

Hardwood is not actually all that hard. And it's not the speed that concerns me. It's the load placed upon it. Saw blades cut would by chipping very small pieces from it at a high rate of speed. The actual load on it is fairly low. In fact most saw don't have the torque necessary to ever break a blade from just sheer load. The saw motor will stall before that happens. A motor on the other hand places quite a bit of load in comparison. Most automotive motos make a minumim of 100 lb-ft of torque. High HP applications tend to make significantly more.

I understand your point, and I thought the same thing. But if you look at the original disc, or may I say sheet metal, holding the original organic fibre disc (third pic) there are a few points:

1. The original sheet metal is at most 2mm wide in some parts, 1mm in others2. The material is flimsy as hell, when I say sheet metal I MEAN sheet metal 3. The actual connection between this sheet metal and the center of the clutch disc is very small, compare to the solid connection I have now.

And as I said, the guys here have used it for making clutches for quite some time now. So I'm quite comfortable with it. Usually the problems they have is the disc separating from the disc center cause of poor connection and flimsy rivets, not the disc itself tearing up.

But we'll just have find out, won't we? :P

Quote »It may be close to what you paid to do this in fact. [/quote]Looking around the net the cheapest I've found a 6 puck 240mm clutch disc (not even Nissan specific) is like $125. But then I have a couple of issues. 6 puck discs on the net aren't spring loaded so they are way more of a on/off kinda thing. Remember this is my daily driver so I need at least some comfort.

Then I have to worry about shipping from Miami to Costa Rica, plus the guys at customs suck big time... I could well pay $50-$60 in taxes, probably less if I'm lucky.

All in all, if this disc doesn't work I can always purchase the online ones.

Quote »As far as the difference, copper-ceramic will look similar to the set-up you are using, where it has several pucks rather than a continuous surface. And it is made of a copper and ceramic compound. I wasn't sure what material you are using. Organic is what you had and burned out already. [/quote]They call it bronze/ceramic over here... could very well be a mistake on their part (wouldn't be the first) and they could be copper/ceramic. So performance wise, which is better? Copper/ceramic puck type or organic performance disc type?

[BoostFab]

that is magnificent, hurry up and get that thing installed; i like to know how well it performs.

[WDRacing]

I'm totally impressed, Looks like I have to give up my "Shade Tree" trophy. Hope this works out for ya.

WD

[BoostFab]

PEDRO: login to your site and change the permission of the folder "temp_clutch";

[huguetpj]

PEDRO: login to your site and change the permission of the folder "temp_clutch";

How? I'm using Windows Explorer to access the FTP site and can't seem to find a way to allow browsing the dir

[Red Lightning]

How do you make sure each of the friction points are balanced? Looks nice, but like everyone else said, I would rather buy a High Performance clutch.

[huguetpj]

How do you make sure each of the friction points are balanced?

By balanced you mean in the right place? Well... the holes were made at the machine shope where the disc was cut, so they should be in the right place, simple geometry.

[BoostFab]

i think he meant "balance" as in like it doesn't vibrate while spinning. like you were to balance your tires/wheels.

[C-Kwik]

I understand your point, and I thought the same thing. But if you look at the original disc, or may I say sheet metal, holding the original organic fibre disc (third pic) there are a few points:

1. The original sheet metal is at most 2mm wide in some parts, 1mm in others2. The material is flimsy as hell, when I say sheet metal I MEAN sheet metal 3. The actual connection between this sheet metal and the center of the clutch disc is very small, compare to the solid connection I have now.

And as I said, the guys here have used it for making clutches for quite some time now. So I'm quite comfortable with it. Usually the problems they have is the disc separating from the disc center cause of poor connection and flimsy rivets, not the disc itself tearing up.

But we'll just have find out, won't we? :P



Looking around the net the cheapest I've found a 6 puck 240mm clutch disc (not even Nissan specific) is like $125. But then I have a couple of issues. 6 puck discs on the net aren't spring loaded so they are way more of a on/off kinda thing. Remember this is my daily driver so I need at least some comfort.

Then I have to worry about shipping from Miami to Costa Rica, plus the guys at customs suck big time... I could well pay $50-$60 in taxes, probably less if I'm lucky.

All in all, if this disc doesn't work I can always purchase the online ones.



They call it bronze/ceramic over here... could very well be a mistake on their part (wouldn't be the first) and they could be copper/ceramic. So performance wise, which is better? Copper/ceramic puck type or organic performance disc type?

Couple of thoughts to ponder. Different types of metals react differently to different types of loads. Some are more brittle than others, and some have higher tensile strengths. I can't really comment on what's better in this case nor do I know the composition of a typical clutch disc or a saw blade.

I believe Clutch Masters puck discs use sprung hubs.

If they call it bronze/ceramic, then it must made of that. And copper/ceramic clutches would be made of that. Copper is quickly becoming a metal of choice in many friction materials. Particularly in high performance applications. Copper is both soft so it doesn't wreak havoc on rotors and flywheels. It's also has a great ability to absorb heat quickly and dissapate it quickly. Many Brake and clutch companies are using a higher concentration of copper strands in their organic clutch discs and semi-metallic pads.

As far as the difference between organic and metallic puck, organics are softer and much easier on the flywheel. They are more prone to overheating in high torque applications and race applications though. Metallic pucks can endure much more abuse and handle higher loads. But they are more aggressive in both engagement and tend to wear the flywheel much faster. I had a dual face disc once that used an organic lining against the flywheel and a metallic puck face against the pressure plate. After about 10,000 miles, the clutch started slipping badly. When I pulled it apart, the metallic pucks had eaten at the pressure plate lining so far that the pressure plate no longer could extend any more pressure against the disc. Both sides of the disc showed relatively little signs of wear. For this reason, I tend to want to stick to organic discs unless I absolutely need to.

[SloS13]

you are a f***** crazy biatch. best of luck!

[Red Lightning]

i think he meant "balance" as in like it doesn't vibrate while spinning. like you were to balance your tires/wheels.

Yea, I meant like balancing a tire. Because he cut off all the teeth of the blade, so how does he make sure it's still balanced.

[JJ240]

I think you guys doubt too much. He said that many people do it there and they dont have problems. Nonetheless Im still anxious to see it all come together :-D

[BoostFab]

this is a step toward innovative DIY; if this works well then we all know the formula for a new clutch

[JJ240]

Yeah, since its not common place to do that here Im worried if I try it will I be able to find a machine shop that wont just laugh at me when I bring them a sawblade and tell them what I want done :-D

[huguetpj]

Yea, I meant like balancing a tire. Because he cut off all the teeth of the blade, so how does he make sure it's still balanced.

Yep, I understood. What I meant is, the disc is perfectly round, the holes are geometrically placed and the pads are supposed to be as exactly alike as can be possible since they are used in truck clutches... so I'm pretty sure it should be balanced.

[huguetpj]

If they call it bronze/ceramic, then it must made of that. And copper/ceramic clutches ... relatively little signs of wear. For this reason, I tend to want to stick to organic discs unless I absolutely need to.

Now I'm worried about my flywheel and new pressure plate... :rolleyes

[huguetpj]

this is a step toward innovative DIY; if this works well then we all know the formula for a new clutch

But there is one problem... it's probably best to buy a new aftermarket clutch in the US than to go through all of this. Mainly because labor/machine shop work is more expensive in the US and clutch discs are less expensive to get there :rolleyes

The other parts (flywheel and pressure plate) it depends on the cost of machine shop work in the US.

But I sure hope these gets some brains going into better ways to do stuff. I'm so not into buying aftermarket parts if you can get the results with DIY projects, hence my home made turbo kit and me still tring to break into the Nissan ECU.