2010 Q45 speculation menitoned in this week's Wall Street Journal

[Epod]

Here's a Q & A pair from this week's Wall Street Journal. You can read the original here

http://online.wsj.com/article/....html

I assume the link will go dead soon, so I've also cut-and-pasted the text from the WSJ's car column:

Q: Can you tell me whether or not Infiniti intends to produce a new Q45 or similar model in 2010? I currently own a 2005 Q45 which I love. It has been maintenance free and has performance I think is comparable to any BMW, Lexus or Mercedes. And it's cheaper. I will be interested in a new one in 2010 and my dealer doesn't have a definitive answer on the future. -- B. L. Robinson, Jr., Ellicott City, Md.

A: Although recent speculation suggests Infiniti is considering plans to build a new flagship car to replace the Q45, the company says it has no such plans. The main reason is that the Q45 was a poor seller despite developing a small, but enthusiastic following.

In the late 1980s luxury-car shoppers were excited by the impending arrival of the first high-end sedans from Toyota's Lexus and Nissan's Infiniti unit. When the cars debuted in 1990, Lexus quickly took the lead and Infiniti's Q never really caught on, much less caught up. In 2005, the year before it discontinued the model, the company sold 1,129 Q45s while Lexus sold 26,043 LS sedans.

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[qship96]

Hopefully the idiots responsible for designing and marketing the F50 were kicked out of Infiniti and the entire automotive industry for that miserable failure between the LS and their vision of what a competitive product was.

[Mark Linkous]

Ouch.

[Rex]

The poor sales performance of the Q45 goes back to the original marketing strategy. If you recall, the initial Q45/Infiniti commercials did not show any cars, just waterfalls and "serenity pools". IIRC, they used Vincent Price for the voice over.

[miata007]

Personally, I don't think was the marketing that hurts infiniti at the beginning. I think is the following.

1. Nissan does not have the Toyota image.2. Q45 is offensive looking vs LS400.

In today's Infiniti and Nissan, they lack refinements, fit and finishes thanks to extreme cost cutting due to recent years.

007

[Infinitiguy19]

What Infiniti should do is bring the JDM G50 here, or any other JDM President, Then you will see how that car will sell.

It would make the Camaro sales look the crap.

If only there was a Left hand Drive "LHD" President.
Modified by ppastos at 8:33 PM 10/4/2008

[Kiven422]

I personally think its the lousy shape... thats IT!

The interior will steal away customers.

[maxnix]

1. Nissan does not have the Toyota image.2. Q45 is offensive looking vs LS400.

In today's Infiniti and Nissan, they lack refinements, fit and finishes thanks to extreme cost cutting due to recent years.

Pretty subjective, so I am not sure how relevant those perceptions are. They certainly don't jibe with mine. But I am not a majority lemming.

Even Toyota has cut quality recently. Why the G50 was dropped as the President would be a $100K car here. Not a hot seller, and neither is the LS600h, another $100K car.

[checksplay]

That was Jonathan Pryce who did the original Infiniti commercials.

[Q45tech]

Somewhat unfair to listen to used buyers who have never laid out the $65,000 in cash.................in 1990 the bulk [more than half] of the Q and LS were purchased in cash. They wrote the check granted only $40k.

Today 65% of LS are financed or leased................still the same core of cash buyers.

"According to recent surveys, more buyers are showing up at dealerships with cash in hand to make the purchase. A survey by CNW Marketing research says that nearly 12 percent of all new car buyers are paying cash."

"Today's cash buyer tends to fall into two segments of the market -- those buying inexpensive economy cars and those buying big-dollar luxury and sports cars. There are more than 30 models with sticker prices less than $15,000 and more than 60 priced above $60,000."

[maxnix]

Jonathan Pryce appeared in the later ones, but I don't know who did the voice overs in the early ones with no cars appearing.

[Rex]

REMEMBER the Infiniti commercial with the rocks, the enigmatic voice-over -- and no vehicles in sight? The idea, back in 1989, was to stir interest in Nissan's new luxury-car line. But the Zen tease seemed to mystify as much as titillate. By the time Infiniti's flagship, the Q45, actually made an appearance, the marketing message was blurred.

Auto magazines called the big, powerful luxury cruiser the Q-Ship, and they praised it for its nearly flawless finish and its superior road manners. But sales never came close to those of the Lexus LS 400, the Mercedes-like luxury car from Toyota that arrived at about the same time.

Some Marketing courses do case studies of this marketing program as well as the launch of New Coke and discuss the good and bad of each. By many it's considered to be one of the biggest "Brand Launch" flops campaigns of all time.

[Haitian_King]

That was Jonathan Pryce who did the original Infiniti commercials.

I don't remember any of the Q45 commercials, but I know that Mr. Pryce was heavily involved with the J30 commercials.

[BadQ45t]

I remember the commercials like it was yesterday...they would show these waterfalls, raindrops and calmly tell you "INFINITI"...for sure these commercials sucked. But at the end of the day I don't think that was 100% responsible for the failure of the original Q45 versus the LS400/430 models. It was more that the Q had a more destinctive body style, the LS was very middle of the road...there wasn't much to love and not that much to hate. The Q you either got or you didn't. Also, when you looked at the guy that could afford these cars brand new it was a more let's say "mature" driver who typically would like the more insulated ride, less about performance and more about quiet comfort.

The 2nd generation Q was a move to compete against Lexus more but by than they were done...the LS had just too big of a following and there were too many of them on the road. My dad has had a LS400, LS430 and now a LS460. The only one I would have like to have gotten in his will is the LS460...the others he could keep.

If you look at sales figures for 2008 Lexus is down 50% for sales of the LS, so why even try to come back into this market. They need to get M and G right to keep the brand up, another Q would take too much work in this market.

[qship96]

Infiniti badly needs a flagship halo car to be seen as a true competitor in the top tier luxury market.....a new properly designed Q focusing on pure luxury to compete with Lexus/BMW/MB at the top level. leave the performance edge to the M series,and focus on pure luxury for the next Q.

The Nissan GTR coupe should have been badged an Infiniti to boost the brands image and placehold in the top tier market.....it is way too expensive and unlike other Nissans to waste in their showroom along with flimsy cheap versas,Sentras,Altimas and all the other front wheel economy dreck.

[Haitian_King]

Infiniti badly needs a flagship halo car to be seen as a true competitor in the top tier luxury market.....a new properly designed Q focusing on pure luxury to compete with Lexus/BMW/MB at the top level. leave the performance edge to the M series,and focus on pure luxury for the next Q.

The Nissan GTR coupe should have been badged an Infiniti to boost the brands image and placehold in the top tier market.....it is way too expensive and unlike other Nissans to waste in their showroom along with flimsy cheap versas,Sentras,Altimas and all the other front wheel economy dreck.

Great post!

I totally agree. I've always felt that Infiniti should have a separate "sport tuning" branch similar to MB AMG and the M-Series for BMW.

[sijoko]

My take on the new Q. It should be taken upmarket. The economy is not doing good so forget about high volume sales. They should do something along the lines of high performance and exclusivity kinda like Maserati. It can be low volume but it should be a head turner and have outstanding performance.

Nissan has some great engineers and designers. They can build great cars when allowed to do so.

[maxnix]

I've always felt that Infiniti should have a separate "sport tuning" branch similar to MB AMG and the M-Series for BMW.

They did, well almost. It was like NISMO, but called something like RSport, but it was stillborn. Nothing ever came of it.

[BadQ45t]

The problem is that every time they come up with the NEXT Q they are being passed by the next gen Lexus, BMW and MB. When the 2002 Q came out they dubbed it as "the no excuses" to their dealerships...than they come out with a bloated looking I35...I liked the car but the exterior looks were bla.

My high school buddy was a GM at Infiniti of Ventura that year and look what a major flop that was for them. He couldn't give those 2002's away.

To even make a dent, they'd would need to have a 425hp drop dead from outside and in product to even get one of these north of 60k buyers to look at the product so the question is would it be worth the efforts taking away from M or G development.

I would like to see it but I seriuosly doubt it....3 strikes and your out.

[maxnix]

Actually, I think the whole luxury car paradigm needs adjustment. Size and weight are major concerns now over sheer gadgetry and opulence. I like the suggestion of a Maserati like sedan, but smaller and more efficient, lighter, stronger and quietier. The need for an aluminum or carbon fiber chassis is obvious.

[Unnatural1]

How about a Q50, sporting the new VK50DE in the FX? I'm sure a slightly more powerful version, just north of 400hp, would be a great selling point. Style-wise, as long as it's fitting with their current model line up I'm sure it would be attractive. Infiniti interiors are currently some of the nicest on the market in my opinion. They definitely stood out to me at last year's Dallas Auto Show.

The only problem, how much bigger than the M do you want to go? The G35 Sedan is pretty big and the M is bigger. It would have to be on par in size with the LS460/600h. Now is probably not the best time to release a car like that. However, 2 years from now might be a different story. Then again, around here I can throw a rock and hit a G35 or M35/45, so who knows?

[BadQ45t]

That is just a mail-it-in car. For sure the new 390 horse FX motor is a starting point, but you need to do more than just re-design the F50 which FLOPPED hard with more horse. Might as well not even try it if that is what you do.

They need to do a G50 type of design with great performance, it will need to go from ground zero and I do not see Nissan doing that right now.

[TBrack]

The best thing I think Infiniti can do, considering the new VIP craze hitting the USA hard, is make the Q45 more like the President. I know it makes me sick to see what kind of options the President gets compared to the Q45 and I'm sure the reason the F50 flopped is because of the lack of looks and luxury. The styling of the President is in a whole different ball park than the Q45!

When I see the new Q45 in a few years here is what I want to see:

1. Looks exactly like the President (whatever body that may be in 2 years)2. Options comparative to what the Japanese get3. 5.0 L engine standard with a Q45H hybrid version also

It shouldn't be hard to reintroduce the Infiniti flagship if they just look at what the consumer wants and get better at marketing!

On a side note I think Infiniti really ****ed up by letting the GTR come here as a Nissan. Like qship said, I saw the GTR sitting in a showroom with cheap *** sentras and versas and I was disgusted. That machine belongs in the showroom next to the M45 and G37. Just my 2cents.

[Jesda]

The F50 flopped because it emphasized luxury over performance, abandoning the brand's most loyal core buyers. Even Car and Driver noted that the Cadillac Deville, of all things, performed better in a straight line and did better in the slalom.

So, instead of catering to existing Q45 owners who often cross-shop Infiniti and BMW, they tried to win over the Lexus crowd. Lexus did the luxury thing more reliably and more conservatively, with higher build quality, and with a flawless reputation to back it up.

[MinisterofDOOM]

I think is the following.

1. Nissan does not have the Toyota image.2. Q45 is offensive looking vs LS400.

While I think you're definitely right here, I'm SURE that marketing was a HUGE part of the Q45's lack of success over the years. Nissan and Infiniti did little to actively promote the car. There basically was no marketing for it. Infiniti marketed as a brand, but the Q never got much dedicated spotlight time. Show average people on the street a Y33 or F50 and they won't know what car it is, much less what brand it is. That's all due to Infiniti's failure to market themselves and the car properly. Lexus ads feature dramatic music, a deep voice announcer, and lists of luxurious features with the name of the car repeated over and over and over. There were no G50 ads touting the car's fantastic performance and luxury blend, it's driver-centricness, it's beautiful lines... My point is that regardless of Lexus' precedence in the market, there always was a market looking for the Q. Infiniti simply failed to help them find it.

But yes, The LS will always do better than the Q, because there are more people looking for boring cars that make your driveway look nice than people looking for an engaging driving experience. We all knew that, though, even Infiniti.

As for Toyota's image, that is an excellent supporting case for the marketing comments. Toyota's image is 9999990000000% marketing. Toyota hasn't been the chart-toppingly reliable brand they used to be for a decade or so. But Toyota markets themselves as though they are. So that's the only face people ever see. And when their Camry takes a dump on them, they're convinced that it was a lemon, because Toyotas are reliable. Or so they believe. Same goes for Lexus. Lexus and Toyota are no more reliable than Nissan and Infiniti. They simply market themselves that way. Nissan does not, and has not spent decades building up that reputation through YET MORE marketing propaganda.

It's all down to the image protrayed to potential buyers. The LS's is superb. The Q's is (was) nonexistent.

[BadQ45t]

But have you seen, sat in or drove a LS460...sorry but it ain't boring anymore. The car looks very sharp, the interior is spectacular and the car is fast and handles well. That is the new bar, 360 ponies, lots of torque and a perfect interior without the boring Ls400/LS430 bla looks.

[MinisterofDOOM]

I definitely didn't mean boring as an insult. It's just that there's a clear divide between enthusiasts and transportees. Lexus suits one side quite well, but not the other. I happen to be in the other camp, so they're not for me.

But no, I haven't driven one. It takes more than power and decent handling to make a car not boring, though. It's not what a car can do that makes it fun to drive, but how it does it. Toyota hasn't made a car that's known for being one with the driver since they let the Supra die, and even then it was definitely the standout from that perspective. No amount of power can overcome a car's desire to hide what's going on from you, and if Lexus excels at anything, it's anaesthetizing the driving experience. Even their supposedly sporty IS-F has drawn criticism for being to numb. At least the old boring LS wasn't trying to be something it clearly wasn't (it was certainly still a copycat, but Lexus can do Mercedes Benz--they can't do BMW).

Personally, I find the LS460's styling to be an unpleasant blend of blandness and ugliness, with a bit of bitter "me-too" tossed in for bad measure. Certainly not in my definition of sharp. I'm sure the interior is indeed fantastic; as much as I despise the rest of the latest IS, the interior is very classy...and that's the bottom-end model.

But again, none of that is bad. It's just not for me. I'm just sad that the cars that are for me flounder because they're less popular. Take the original A8, for example. It was criticized for being far too aggressive for it's ultralux segment. And it's probably the most fun to drive of all the big sport sedans.

[qship96]

But have you seen, sat in or drove a LS460...sorry but it ain't boring anymore. The car looks very sharp, the interior is spectacular and the car is fast and handles well. That is the new bar, 360 ponies, lots of torque and a perfect interior without the boring Ls400/LS430 bla looks.

If I were in the market for a brand new full size top tier sedan, I would lust for the Audi A8L.....but end up with a LS460L due to its stellar long term trouble-free ownership record. Lexus has finally caught my attention wth the current version of their LS sedan.
Modified by qship96 at 6:41 PM 10/16/2008

[maxnix]

...the new VIP craze hitting the USA hard,.....

Only if you are a kid who can't afford the car and can't maintain it.

Most people buy cars to drive, not look at in driveways.

Low and slow is not how a luxury car buyer wants to go.

[maxnix]

Lexus has finally cought my attention wth the current version of their LS sedan.

The LS460 is a very nice but overly complicated luxury boat.

It is comfortable, but does not inspire one unless one views napping as a daytime sport.