2* Timing advance Done

[kmckis1029]

great info... so the torque curve is moved down on the G35... that would explain the new "peppyness" of the car.... i know the g35 dosent get all its torque til after 4000 rpms... so so bringing it down in the high 3000 rpm range should be nice...

but that also means you lose on the top end right?

all i use is 93 octane gas... would the ECU ever advance the timing its self? i know it will bring it down when it detects knock. so could i already be at 17* since the car has seen nothing but 93 gas?

on last question... the only parameter changed in the ECU is the degree from 15 to 17... or is there more to it?

[cheapazz]

I have a question also......The highest octane rating I can get is 91 (unless I pay 7 bucks a gallon for 100) How would this adjustment affect my car at 5000 ft elevation. I know the ecu will compensate for bla, bla, bla, etc. but anyone that has lived at a higher elevation will tell you things work a little different here. Just don't want to spend money on nuthin....ya know?

[Sentientbydesign]

I was doing some research into this and I spoke to UpRev about the random timing advances that people are doing.

2 things we all need to consider:

1) Advancing your timing 2 degrees without proper research into your setup is not advised. The UpRev rep said that sometimes they will delay your timing and sometimes advance it, but usually that's with a tune OR if your timing is off on it's own.

2) The ECU will eventually "learn" it's way out of the 2 degree advance.

I was going to buy the cipher cable and software so I could offer the advance until I spoke with UpRev. I don't know that I could charge someone for something that a) won't stick around and b) could be hurting their engines.

Don't you all love me with my "great" information?

If anybody has any contrary information, I'd be interested to hear it. Both of the things I listed above were from talking with UpRev or reading their posts on other forums.

[Jacko3]

Nate:

I am not too concerned about number 1 of your post especially with minimal set up like an air intake and catback exhaust. With test pipes, it could be a different story as the timing could even lean out the car even further as my current set up is already doing. However, I wonder if the 93 octane I use is sufficient enough to handle the additional timing advance compared to say, if I used, 91 Octane gas since I am in a lower elevation int he southeast? If i could find a gas staion with a higher octane rating, i wouldn't be worried one bit about this.

However, the ECU is likely to re-adjust the timing as it learns along, and on the fly. The self-learning ECU is that good. And so, I would be worried more about number 2, especially if a person paid some money to get the timing adjusted.

Before I make any adjustment to my timing this coming weekend, i will first ask them to tell me what degree the computer is showing. If, its 14* then I might take it up to 16*. If its at 15*, I may then take it up to 16*. if its at 16* then I will leave it alone.

[Sentientbydesign]

I used to be one of those "modders" who just said, add bolt ons and be happy. After seeing the tuning side of things, I've really changed my perception.

If my G sees timing adjustments, it will be specialized throughout the RPM range, not just a flat increase/decrease.

[Jacko3]

I don't think you will lose too much of top end power with just a small degree of timing advance. But I do know your car adjusts for changes in modifications. I am unsure if its at 17* or not. Yes, you can change only the timing parameter in the ECU but ti will cause other secondary parameters to adjust as well, as the system is a self-learning system. Pay attention to your gas mileage--that should be a good indicator of whats going on inside your engine.

[Jacko3]

I actually agree with you. But then, would the average Joe be able to afford the precision of specialized tuners? I think the small timing advance---2*, with a self-learning ECU in the G, is really a cost effective way to get things done without spending an arm and a leg. Of course, there is nothing about seeking performance that is cheap anywhere for any car.

[kmckis1029]

well when i hit 30k i will see about this timing advance when i get my service... im at about 28k now (thats 10k in 4 months ) ... and i just did an oil change... so everything will be done at 30k... going to let the nissan dealer do everything i cant or dont want to do that should drop the 30k service price.... ima bring my own oil like tollboothwilley... im trying RP next.

[RED_DET]

The timing obviously can't be changed without software. So it is not going to go back without being changed as well. The ecu retards timing when it detects knock for that specific time frame. I think some take this resetting ecu a bit too far sometimes. The ecu will learn your driving habits and adapt accordingly.

[Sentientbydesign]

What does Cipher adjust? target timing +/- 2 deg and idle RPM value. The ECU's self-learning does compensate against the timing advance over time. I can say that the timing advance showed much better gains on the Dyno than it did for the 350Z.

That was from a different forum. I assume Matt is actually from UpRev.

[tollboothwilley]

NISSAN dealership confirmed that it will not reset itself. The only thing that will change the timing advance is a ping/knock which the ECU automatically resets.

[4drmadness]

oh k sounds good.

[Sentientbydesign]

NISSAN dealership confirmed that it will not reset itself. The only thing that will change the timing advance is a ping/knock which the ECU automatically resets.

Isn't that kind of the point though? I'm thinking that the ECU has 4 degrees of adjustment possible 13-17. If it's capable of running at 17, it will, right? If not, it will retard timing until knock stops. Maybe I'm misinterpretting the process some how.

[tollboothwilley]

No, the stock target is 15* BTDC. This can also be retarded if knocking is detected but it will not advance to 16 or 17 without the ECU being programmed to do so.

It is very likely that if you are not running premium that the ECU will retard timing.

[kmckis1029]

No, the stock target is 15* BTDC. This can also be retarded if knocking is detected but it will not advance to 16 or 17 without the ECU being programmed to do so.

It is very likely that if you are not running premium that the ECU will retard timing.

So if the last owner of my car ran 87 gas the timing would retard to lets say 13* but when the ECU detects my 93 gas it should go back to 15*.... but will never go past 15*....am i correct?

as if it didnt go back to 15* then im not benifiting much from running 93 gas... im just running "rich"

[RED_DET]

You all are missing the point completely. Your ecu is programmed at this moment to either 13, 14, 15 * btc. It it is a 15 and experiences knock, it will retard the timing until knock isn't experienced. It will not go past 15 because the ecu doesn't know when you have put premium gas in or regular. It does what it told based on the knock sensor and what it was programmed for. If you have the ecu re programmed to 17*btc, PLEASE RUN PREMIUM GAS, no questions asked. You should not experience any knocking or pinging, if you do the ecu will retard the timing until the knock stops. Yes it may return back to the set 17* or whatever it was set for as long as it doesn't detect detonation. From what I have seen with Nissan vehicles, most are set to 13* btc. Advancing it to 17* should be noticeable. This was one of the free mods the classic se-r guys would do all the time. Some even went up to 19*btc. This was possible because of distributor. The newer nissan vehicles are maxed @ 17*.

[Jacko3]

Just found out this afternoon from my dealer that my timing is already at 17*. My Tech must have set it and left it there many months ago. My Tech is an awesome guy. He is the best.

The G gets its 93 Octane all the time. Once 93 octane is gone, the G ends up in the garage. I will not use any other grade in the G except no more than 2 galllons of 89 Octane in the G's tank when it at least is 75% full of 93 Octane.


Modified by Jacko3 at 1:40 PM 12/17/2008

[RED_DET]

Image that, it didn't reset itself back...

[tollboothwilley]

haha

yup

Now, if you aren't running premium or your engine starts to knock some then you will end up having the timing adjust itself. It may adjust down and not go back up.

Reiterating what RED said, MAKE SURE YOU RUN PREMIUM if you do the timing advance, or it will all be for naught.

[adren77]

The 15° BTDC is set at Idle and No load. This doesn't mean the ECU can't automatically adjust to 17° BTDC at WOT... in fact it probably does.

This means that the benefit is only during coming from rest and you get no benefit at high end.

Advancing ignition timing to 17° BTDC will probably give you more power when initially coming from dead stop, but it is probably not healthy for your engine.The reason they don't advance timing to the max is because at low RPMs and High Load (which is the conditions engine experiences when car is starting from rest) the engine is a lot more prone to knocking. This is especially bad when you live in hot climate and have 100°F+ weather very often.