1994 Q45 with LS1/T56 questions

[hoobuttacrew]

I just picked up a 94' q45 with 137k miles. Ive been reading up on Midnightsliding's Q45 with RB25 swap, and it got me thinking. For the amount of money id be dropping into putting an RB into a Q, I could just drop in an LS1 with a T56 for roughly the same amount of money and custom fab but possibly less hassle as far as the electrical system goes. From what I gather an LS1 is way more simple to wire up then an RB and would put out more N/A horsepower and torque. I guess im just trying to get outside oppinions and suggestions and such. Lets try to keep it positive.

-HBC

[tkd_q45]

I think this would be awsome! It would lighten the car, give a lot more HP as well as most likely improve fuel economy. I say go for it!!! Just be sure to post a lot of pics.

[greenwar]

Man if you can put in an LS1/T56 in a Q45 - that would be the ultimate Q - or should I say Qvette. Go for it man.. I thought about putting in a T56 in my Buick(which is sold now).. fantastic transmission.

[CrimsonQ]

it only takes 3 things

moneydedicationtime

of which i have none! so you go do it!

[hoobuttacrew]

Yeah im pretty limited on cash (student budget) but im looking to do it little by little. Im looking to pick up some coilovers here in the next couple months, maybe a little suprise as far as brakes go that I picked up over in the 240sx forums. My next major expense will be puchasing the motor and transmission. then just saving up for the install odds and ends. The car has relatively low miles and I could definately run it until I get the funds together. Its gonna take at least a year or two but itll definately be worth it.

[elwesso]

all I can say is..... EWWW.

Simple american engine in a over engineered Japanese luxury car? Mr Miyagi is already shaking his head!

[sijoko]

The LS1 is a nice engine but it is not worthy of replacing the VH45DE. The only real benefit is that the LS is smaller and lighter. The VH is basically an overbuilt high performance motor that is understressed in the G50. It was not built as a compromise engine. It was built for the Q45 when the Q45 meant something to Nissan.

The money that you throw at the LS1/T56 swap could be spent on unleashing the power of the VH. Everything is forged from the factory except the pistons. Swap in some new pistons and then boost the car. The easiest would be a rear-mount setup but I prefer a front-mount setup.

Anyway, good luck with your project.

[hoobuttacrew]

Well the LS1 has 5.7 liters vs. the VH's 4.5, another reason is that id like a manual transmission and the cost to swap over to a manual trans for the VH would be pretty expensive im sure. The LS1 in my oppinion is a more reliable powerplant combined with the fact that its slot easier to wire up and trouble shoot then a VH. People have been swapping LS1's into everything, I just though this would be something cool and new...I will be running the VH for a while to save up some cash so plans could definately change in that time. Thanks for all the feedback.

p.s. what companies make coilovers for q45's or what coilovers are the closest to what I need with minimal modification? I read that Midnightsliding used Z32 megan coils and they work pretty well but im just curious as to what other options are out there.

-HBC

[CrimsonQ]

american v8 has torque too

i have a feeling an ls1 equipped q would destroy any previous attempts.

not for the purist.

i think it sounds sexy

[ScottJackson]

more complex does not equal better, is what Mr. Miyagi would say. On that note, do the LS1 swap. Put a cam in it before dropping it in the Q. The VH45 is overbuilt for the power it produces in the Q, but the LS1 is also overbuilt (and you've got the 6litre truck blocks if you wanna make over 800hp where the aluminum car blocks become marginal). I'd say some 4340 rods and forged pistons for the LS1 will be cheaper than just getting pistons for the VH. Plus the cams are cheaper, you've got a lot more displacement (may as well throw a stroker crank in there for 400+ inches if you do the piston/rod swap), is smaller and lighter, and there's a ton of aftermarket support. Do the LSx swap and don't look back except to see the rear diffential bits and oil being scattered over the road when you unleash the LSx power on the Q. The VH45 is a great motor with lots of potential, if you've got lots of money and are limited by rules how much displacement you can run. Sadly, it's looking more and more like my 351C ford is going into my 540i bmw and my Q45s will see out the rest of their lives as daily boring transportation. I've got a clutch type limited slip diff in the 540i that can handle lots of power. I can fit much wider wheels on it and the brakes/suspension are great. So, that's where the money's gonna be dumped. The only thing that may change this outlook is if I can end up boosting the 4.0L that's in the BMW with a remote mount with much less $$$ and effort than in the Q (and that option must be also cheaper and easier than the remote turbo on the Q). I'm itching to get home this coming week to get some work done on my cars over spring break. Just have to see what unfolds. EDIT: If you want to build big power and modify the motor or just don't mind using an iron block, the 6.0L truck engine is a great option instead of the LS1. They can be had relatively cheap and the sky is the limit. The heads are pretty good and can be ported to be great. An aftermarket cam is mandatory for the truck motors to make them awesome power producers.
Modified by ScottJackson at 3:17 AM 3/5/2007

[hoobuttacrew]

Yeah ive been thinking that because its gonna be a daily driver im gonna shoot for a modest 350-400ish HP. I also got some pretty sweet plans for lightening the car up a bit without losing too much of the Infiniti style and luxury. Im just really trying to figure out this suspension situation right now, im looking to run coilovers but not spend 2g's+.
Modified by hoobuttacrew at 10:17 AM 3/5/2007

[ScottJackson]

Well, for those power goals, I'd honestly say to just add a remote mount turbo and call it a day. A T04E in the 55-60mm range comes to mind...

[Jesda]

The VH45 (and stiffness, originality, design inspiration, and rock solid build quality) are what keep the Q competitive against some faster, better-handling, more balanced, and slicker-looking rivals.

HOWEVER, I am amused and intrigued. Make it so!

[maxnix]

The LS1 is a nice engine but it is not worthy of replacing the VH45DE. The only real benefit is that the LS is smaller and lighter. The VH is basically an overbuilt high performance motor that is understressed in the G50. It was not built as a compromise engine. It was built for the Q45 when the Q45 meant something to Nissan.

The money that you throw at the LS1/T56 swap could be spent on unleashing the power of the VH. Everything is forged from the factory except the pistons. Swap in some new pistons and then boost the car. The easiest would be a rear-mount setup but I prefer a front-mount setup.

I guess some guys like taking a pig to the prom. These engines are way more reliable and built to much closer tolerances than any of the American V8. It is simply amazing to me that so many members don't recognize the differences between the import V8 in general and the domestic Neanderthal pushrod 2 valve American designs.

[CrimsonQ]

some guys like fat chicks. not everyone is like you.

[maxnix]

some guys like fat chicks. not everyone is like you.

So true. Even more prefer dumb ones.

Less challenged that way!

Others prefer Camrys.

[HashiriyaS14]

It'd be a neat way to get a manual trans in the car.

The bolt-on potential for an LS1 is much better than for the VH, so in regards to just making nice cheap NA power, you might be better off with the LS1.

I'm not sure what it would take to make 450hp NA with the VH, but it'd be expensive. Not so with the LS1.

Contrarily, if you just boosted the VH, you could probably make big power for less money than the LS1 rig. It'd still leave the challenge of rigging up a manual trans, however.

Maybe try and set up paddle shifters, like on moyea's S13?

[lino]

Looking for more power...take a look at this:

http://www.boostjunky.com/topten.html

http://www.boostjunky.com/qm.html

and scroll down the page and take a look at the BMW M5 Twin Supercharger - 1000 HP Yr.

http://www.lenzmotorentechnikusa.com/LenzBMW.htm

[ScottJackson]

I guess some guys like taking a pig to the prom. These engines are way more reliable and built to much closer tolerances than any of the American V8. It is simply amazing to me that so many members don't recognize the differences between the import V8 in general and the domestic Neanderthal pushrod 2 valve American designs.

Neanderthal pushrod design? Overhead cams were around before pushrod engines. Two valves per cylinder can certainly get the job done (think 8000hp top fuel engines), but probably aren't as ideal as the 4 valve pent roof design for getting air and fuel into a limited bore size. However, the two valve chamber often has a better quench pad, but not better spark plug location. There's give and take, but I take the Neanderthal motor over the sophisticated and supreme Jap motor... with the only exception being maybe when I'm a little old lady and don't want the harsh acceleration to hurt my back.

[hoobuttacrew]

Yeah I agree that the VH is a solid powerplant, however the cost to make the VH what im looking for would by far surpass the amount needed to swap in the LS1/T56 combo. Id also have more power out of the box with the ability to add gobs of HP if I decide to down the road. There are limit-less options and aftermarket support for the LS1 whereas the a VH owner would be hard pressed to find parts and services available to squeeze the performance potential out of that engine. With just a good set of cams I could have the LS near 400hp not to mention that the T56 is a buttery smooth transmission. As far as the LS1 being a neanderthal powerplant all I can say is quality... why else do you think that the LS1 is still one of the most popular powertrains for putting down cheap, and reliable power. Its built well as has been for years.

FYI.- I got motor/trans hookup in the 2500$ range for a motorset with less then 50k miles. The guy I know that will be doing the swap might be able to make it into a kit if anyone is interested i.e. motor mounts, driveshaft, modification of subframe etc.

[ScottJackson]

don't even need a set of cams for the LS1, just one will do. And they're around 400hp bone stock. They were seriously under rated from the factory. If you really want the manual trans and want the ability to cheaply build more power in the future, I am all for the LS1 swap. One thing I do wonder is what you plan to do with the alternator, ps pump, and A/C. Are you going to make custom brackets to keep all the infiniti stuff or are you going to switch to GM accessories? If using the GM stuff, how will the A/C work with the stock climate control?

[sijoko]

It seems we need a better look at the VH45DE.



The VH45DE engine is 4.5 liter DOHC V8 that was created by Nissan for use in the Infiniti Q45 sports sedan which debuted in the fall of 1989. The main objective was to achieve ample low-end torque with outstanding high-end power. Many of the lessons that Nissan learned in building the VG30DETT for the 300zx Twin Turbo were applied to the VH45DE design process.

The major design requirements were:

- Best dynamic performance in its class at all rpm ranges - Quiet operation with a pleasing engine note - High reliability and maintenance-free operation

To achieve these goals, Nissan used the latest engine technologies available in the late 1980's such as Variable Valve Timing, Coil-on-plug Ignition, Sodium Filled Exhaust Valves, Molybdenum-coated Pistons and Aerodynamically Shaped Ports.

In stock form, the VH45DE achieves 278 hp at 6000 rpm and 292 lb-ft/torque at 4000 rpm of which 90% is available at 2000 rpm. The engine is limited to 6900 rpm, although stock engines can rev to 7200 rpm safely with the use of an aftermarket chip.

Specifications of the VH45DE:

- Block: ........Aluminum with Closed Deck and Deep Skirt - Cylinder Liner: ........ Cast-in-place Iron, 3mm thickness - Crankshaft Support: ........6 Bolt Mains w/ Ladder Frame - Cylinder Head: ........Aluminum - Combustion Chamber: ........Pent-roof Type - Valve Arrangement: ........4 Valves per Cylinder - Valve type: ........Intake-Steel / Exhaust-Sodium Filled Steel - Valve dia: ........Intake-38mm / Exhaust-33mm - Camshaft drive: ........Single-strand Roller Chains - Displacement: ........4494cc - Bore: ........93mm - Stroke: ........82.7mm - Block height: ........220.35mm - Compression ratio: ........10.2:1 - Fuel system: ........Multi-point Fuel Injection - Injector size: ........370cc - Ignition: ........Coil-On-Plug, max. 37kv - Crankshaft type: ........Forged Steel, Non-Twist - Main journal dia: ........64mm - Crankpin dia: ........52mm - Connecting rod type: ........Forged Steel - Connecting rod length: ........147mm - Connecting rod measurements: ........55mm / 22mm - Piston type: ........Floating Cast Aluminum w/ Moly Coating - Piston weight: ........402 grams - Compression height: ........32mm - Dimensions: ........ 890mm(L) x 740mm(W) x 725mm(H)

http://turbo-infiniti.org/viewtopic.php?t=28

[sijoko]

Here's a pic of the VH45 that has been sleeved and bored for 98mm pistons. The engine belongs to John Dixon in the United Kingdom. Notice that there is still plenty of space for a larger sleeve.

[hoobuttacrew]

I was thinking about the extra stuff like a/c, ps, and all that. Havent really decided anything yet, any suggestions? what would be the easiest way to retain the luxury features like a/c and infiniti climate control? Im pretty excited about this project and the "to-do" list keeps getting longer.

[hoobuttacrew]

and btw heres the LS1 specs

Type--- Overhead valve, pushrod V-8 Block------ Cast aluminum, 107.1 lbs (48.6 kg) Block Deck Height---- 9.24 in. (234.7 mm) Bore x Stroke (in./mm)----- 3.90 x 3.62 /99.0 x 92.0 Cam Drive----- Chain Camshaft----------- Hollow steel Combustion Chamber Volume------ 4.1 cu. in. (67.3 cu. cm) Connecting Rods ------PF1159M steel, sintered, forged and shotpeened, 6.1-inches Crankshaft------- Cast nodular iron with undercut and rolled fillets Cylinder Head -----Aluminum, 2 valves/cylinder, 20.3 lbs (9.2 kg) Displacement -------346 cu in, 5665 cc, 5.7 L Exhaust Manifolds------ Cast nodular iron Firing Order-------- 1-8-7-2-6-5-4-3 Fuel sequential----- electronic fuel injection Fuel Requirement----- Premium unleaded Ignition------- Individual-coil, DIS (distributorless ignition system) with double-platinum-tipped spark plugs Intake Manifold----- Composite, 15.9 lbs. (7.2 kg) Lifters------- Hydraulic roller type Main Bearing Caps------ Powdered metal Rocker Arms------ Investment cast steel with a roller fulcrum but a standard tip Valve Lift (Intake/Exhaust)(in.)------ 0.500/0.500 0.525/0.525 Valve Lift Duration(Intake/Exhaust)(degrees) ------198/208

Horsepower----- 350@ 5600Torque------375@4400Redline--------6000Fuel Cutoff--------6200Compression------10.1:1Total Dressed Weight----- 497.2 LBS

[ScottJackson]

The "to do" list gets very long very fast. Even at deeply discounted "friend" prices, all the tidbits to put the motor in are going to cost more than the $2500 the motor and trans is gonna cost you. I would be shocked if it comes in below that. A trans crossmember isn't hard to make and it won't be difficult to attach the oil pressure, water temp, and tach wires to the LS1. I'd use Megasquirt to control it, but I'm sure the LS1 wiring with stock computer has been figured out plenty by now. The motor mounts won't be too terribly difficult either and the driveshaft cutting will be cake (when done by a shop that does that). As for the accessories, it'll probably be easiest to keep all the infiniti stuff and just spend forever and two days figuring out custom brackets that will attach it all to the motor in a solid fashion with good alignment that still clears everything else. If you were stripping the car down and were making a racer out of it (like that RB25 swapped one), you can just put a basic alternator on there (prob internal regulated GM so you can have one wire hookup) and forget A/C and all the wiring nightmares. The thing is, once you're done, you've still got a two ton sedan. If this car is what you love and you would want nothing other than a Q45 body with LS1 power and transmission, then go for it. Don't forget also that the LS1 oil pan is rear sump and you'll have to fabricate a front sump pan for the Q crossmember. Bad things happen when you try to change major parts like a front suspension. I've got a '69 mach1 that's been mini tubbed and I'm trying to build a fun street car out of it. It had a mustangII suspension poorly installed when I got it. So, being short on $$$ and high on ambition, I decided to swap in a C4 corvette front suspension to get 12" brakes, aluminum control arms, quick steering rack... Well, to put my 514" ford in there it's taken a bunch of work including cutting out the firewall and transmission tunnel since the motor needed to be moved back about 8" from the stock location to clear the chevy suspension. Now I must build a fiberglass (or carbon fiber if I can afford it and find somewhere to vacuum it and bake it) trans tunnel/firewall so I'll have enough room for a gas pedal and such inside the car while still clearing the huge E4OD overdrive trans and motor. It's cool though because I'm going with a single 85mm turbo and it should make around 900hp and 900ft/lbs at less than 10psi of boost and it's exactly the car on which I want to spend that kind of time and effort. But the reality has set in that it will be a LONG time before that car is done so I must have some hot rod now that I sold my hot rod '89 IROC with basic 450+hp 350 a while ago. So it's either one of my Qs or my 540i. It'll likely be the 540i as the swap will be a little easier and it has more traits that I like which will justify the efforts more than if I did the engine swap in a Q. Anyway, think of everything, add it all up to see what it'll cost, double that number, and you'll have a pretty good idea of what it'll take.

[Rex]

The only thing he left out is a way to figure it's going to take way longer than you want it to, or can wait.

I think there's some infor that "guess-timates" a SC or TT set up will give you >400 hp running 4-6psi.

[bullittandy]

These engines are way more reliable and built to much closer tolerances than any of the American V8. It is simply amazing to me that so many members don't recognize the differences between the import V8 in general and the domestic Neanderthal pushrod 2 valve American designs.

Reliable?!? Chain guide failure at 70K miles destroying the engine-that's reliable?!?

I don't think you know very much about cars or engines if you plan on ignoring/denigrating 50 years of the small block Chevy's influence on performance.

[hoobuttacrew]

To have hinson perform the LS1 swap on my 240sx with there pricey *** kit was going to cost 9k with motorset and everything. So I couldnt imagine it costing much more then that. The problem isnt that I dont do the research, the problem is that I research so much that my mind is always changing. For now im gonna get some megan coilovers,bushing kit, some nice wheels and a good old fashion tune up and servicing. Im trying to pick up the parts little by little so im not spending 9k at once but rather spreading it over time. In the end ill be the only guy around with a Q57, unless some rich guy swoops my idea and does it first. Hopefully its too pointless for any normal/sane person to dive into.

Ill post up some new pics as soon as the coils get here. Can I suggest maybe a sticky for this topic?

-HBC

[ScottJackson]

I vote no for the sticky. I just don't think it's worthy of sticky status. If the swap had been done and all the steps were documented, then it would be different. If I do end up not using my 540i for my 351C ford swap (front sump oil pan so it should fit easier than an LS1) and use the Q instead, it'll be a Q58, so you'd still be the only Q57