12.86 @ 119mph GT3076R @ 17psi T2 flange!

[Logan76]

I personally would go with the 35r because I like lots of lag and a hellacious top end, but if your more into a nice linear torque curve and a nice powerband your going to want to go with the twin scroll 30r.

[spooled240]

nice times bro, and the car is lookin great

your 60' is kinda slow but that is because of the stiff coils, big wheels, negative camber and the low profile tires...you can definitely knock some more time off just with some extra traction

does the engine pull hard all the way to redline with the cams? Stock cams make the KA drop off a little at 6K

[SX APPEAL]

Agreed, if you're all about the straight line stuff I'd keep the engine the way it is, go get some fatty tires and an alignment, adjustable RUCA's/toe links if you don't have em already. The launch is everything...

[480sx]

Sunny, a twin scroll s258 .70 ar housing would most likely have better spool up than your gt30r with the capability of hitting 600 hp. I say better because of twin scroll.

Honestly you do need to ditch the t2 flange, eventually. Your drive pressures are most likely out of the desirable range at your power level. Out of curiosity, what .ar are you running on that housing?

Bang for your buck though would have to just be slicks and suspension. I know this car has been hemorrhaging money(kinda like mine but yours runs! ), i personally would just leave well enough alone for now. Your not talking a big difference in power or trap times by swapping turbos, the 3076r is pretty beastly. Since the car is also a street car you might miss the response. Flash spool is a bish on street tires.

[sunnys14]

Sunny, a twin scroll s258 .70 ar housing would most likely have better spool up than your gt30r with the capability of hitting 600 hp. I say better because of twin scroll.

Honestly you do need to ditch the t2 flange, eventually. Your drive pressures are most likely out of the desirable range at your power level. Out of curiosity, what .ar are you running on that housing?

Bang for your buck though would have to just be slicks and suspension. I know this car has been hemorrhaging money(kinda like mine but yours runs! ), i personally would just leave well enough alone for now. Your not talking a big difference in power or trap times by swapping turbos, the 3076r is pretty beastly. Since the car is also a street car you might miss the response. Flash spool is a bish on street tires.

I'm running a .86AR T2 housing which is equivalent to a .63AR T3 (not including the flange size).

I WILL upgrade to a T3, it's just money is a little tight right now because I will be entering my RT program in 2 months and have to pay for tuition.

The reason I am deciding to go twin-scroll 30r instead of 35r is that the 35r's limit is 600whp+ and I do not want to change to a z32 transmission and upgrade injectors (currently running sard 850's). The 30r's limit is right around where my transmission, injectors and clutch will max out at. Once I enter my program, I will not be able to fix anything because I won't have the time.

[480sx]

Upgrade your manifold, dp and swap exhaust housings and you'll be set.

Toss on some slicks though, then your gona start rippin up some trannys most likely even at your current power level.

[Logan76]

Think that the transmission would go before the diff/axles? Consistent hard launches will put alot of wear on your car much faster than you would think, its hard on more than your drivetrain. You should go with a tial housing and just V-band it all

[sunnys14]

I'm estimating i'd gain a full 50whp switching to a t3 twinscroll 30r across the power band at the same boost level.

The only thing i'm afraid of is the transmission committing suicide

[Logan76]

Only one way to find out , I think you would gain some overall spool up time too.

[GTR PrYdE]

480 is dead on with the BW out-everything'ing the 30r.

Non-bb, spool just like the 30r, cheaper, better!

Now slightly off topic- 480,These BW's you can currently get, are they the new 09 BW/Airwerks turbos?

The new models are proving to be pretty danm sick.

[sunnys14]

I saw the GT30r vs S256 turbo on honda-tech and the s256 turbo doesn't really outshine the 30r until 24+ or so psi, if so, just barely.

30R and S256 are very similarly matched comparing the wheel sizes and housings.

Here are the graphs on honda-tech I found

GT30R is dottedS256 is solid

20psi (30r outspools and makes same power)

23psi (30r still outspools and makes same top end power)

The link to the whole story is here:http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2220363

400 rpm spool is alot of spool time to be saving. I like GT turbos and won't ever run anything else besides them.


Modified by sunnys14 at 10:56 PM 2/16/2009

[480sx]

Idk im always weary of those tests. First, they never seem to max out the turbos, which is where the borg warners always excel. Just about every BW will flow an extra 50 hp worth of air or more than the GT-R. In addition, on the smaller framed turbos the GT-R series do offer a better spool up time. However with the larger s3xx ect the advantages of the BB center cartridge are negated by the heavier design of Garretts wheels. The BW extended tip compressor wheels are by design considerably easier to spin, lighter for one, and less mass on the outside of the wheel with a taller inducer.

If you look at the large framed 1000+ hp drag turbos the BW will either spool up at pretty much the exact same time or faster because of this.

In addition, the s258 sports a much nicer compressor map than the s256. I havnt seen a single comparative test on the s258, i cant wait to compare one to a GT-R when i get the cash.

It also shows in that thread that the BW does exactly what im saying it does, makes more power as the boost level increases over the GT-R. They got pretty close to maxing out the GT-R, however didnt push the BW.

Oh, and its a GT-R dealer doing the test.
Modified by 480sx at 1:59 PM 2/17/2009

[GTR PrYdE]

Not a comparison but some nice results from a low reading dyno, showing nice spool and top end of a s259 with a .55ar housing

From Keith @ Pure-TuningBorg Warner S259 Dyno Results.

Test were performed on our Mustang Dynamometer MD-1100-AWD-SE.

Car: 2003 Evo 8Engine: 2.0LFuel: 93 octane / 118 octaneTurbo: Borg Warner S259 / Open T3 .55ar Stainless Turbine HousingIntake Manifold: Magnus (Street)Cams: HKS 272Max Boost: 23psi on 93oct / 37psi on 118octAtmospheric Temp: 76DegRelative Humidity: 5.7%

[480sx]

A .55 ar was choking that motor at 37 psi.

[GTR PrYdE]

A .55 ar was choking that motor at 37 psi.

Everybody dogged the .55, but it still made 440+whp at 7900, on a mustang dyno. Not bad at all, he didn't use the .70 ar because like he likes AC

On a side note, I found this dyno reads about 20% lower than a DJ, so at 37psi it "should" have made over 600whp DJ...

BACK on topic, If you decide to stay with the 30r, with T3, good luck! It's a nice turbo and you can free up alot of power by getting rid of the T2

[sunnys14]

I've read that Mustangs read about 13% lower than a Dynojet, 20% seems to be quite too much.

[Logan76]

480, You said the BW wheels are consierably lighter than the GT series wheels, any more info on that for me? less rotating mass would obviously make it easier to spin, Ill be in the market for a new turbo soon, Not sure where I want to go with it though, guy has a 30R for sale locally, but I may go with an SC61, I havent considered much of BW's product line yet, shoot me some info.

[GTR PrYdE]

I've read that Mustangs read about 13% lower than a Dynojet, 20% seems to be quite too much.

That's the norm, but, this came from a guy who dyno'd there and on a DJ

Not even close. On a dynojet my car made 440whp. On this MD it made only 365whp. . .

Take these numbers and multiply by 1.2 and you'll get a very rough ballpark of average DJ #'s . . .

EVOlutionary

[480sx]

Logan this is part of my GT-R/BW spiel. I just took it from my BW FS thread, i have good access to these turbos. A good friend of mine owns a turbo shop.



This is my s258. (actually i finished the polishing job and it looks a lot better now, just an old pic)

Most if not all of the big HP drag guys have realized that the BW S series turbo has many advantages over the GT-R series, and have already switched to the S400's and larger. The BW S series has higher flowrates and surgelines than the GT-R series, making it a higher hp capable turbo. In addition to this, the Borg warner turbos are about 2/3rds the price of a Garrett GT-R series, and are rebuildable, unlike the Ball bearing turbos. The Garrett unit however will spool between 150-300 RPMs faster than the BW. For the smaller turbos, the difference is greater in the GT-R's favor. The larger you go, the gains are negated.

Here is a picture of 2 'Extended Tip' Borg Warner compressor wheels.





As you can see, the veins of the inducer/exducer extend out past the wheel. You can also see they used much less metal for their exducer. The tiny amount of metal on the outside of the wheel replaced a large piece of aluminum that is found on the Garretts Exducer. This allows for a lighter compressor wheel which will counteract the journal bearings tendency to want to spool slightly slower than the GT-R.

Compare the BW wheel with a Garrett GT wheel, shown here and you can see what im talking about.



See how the smaller fin(exducer) thats underneath the larger blades(inducer) is larger on Garrett's wheel? More rotating mass. Also, the BW wheels are taller and keep more of their mass to the center of the wheel while the GT-R's are shorter and fatter.

In addition, the GT-R series turbos use a smaller turbine wheel than a comparable BW unit. In another way of saying it, the BW turbine is a much higher flowing turbine wheel. This means that with the BW unit your back pressure(aka drive pressure) will be lower, your MPG's will be better, and your EGT's will be lower.

/end

If you have more specific questions just shoot me an email, its in my profile.

The GT-R is still a great turbo. I just want to do my own research before i believe there is a 400 rpm spool up time difference between the two turbos. In addition, my setup will be able to hit 600 hp eventually, so i plan on maxing out both my s258 and a GT3076R. Im gona go all out when i do the test, taking off both compressor wheels, weighing them, detailed pics all that good stuff. Will be a while though.

[Logan76]

Thanks bud, I couldnt have asked for more indepth conversation about turbos, I love talking about them. Where does precisions line of turbo fall in the equation? If you guys want to keep talking about turbo and their capabilitys?

[greenmachine240]

what wheels are those on the s14

those look good

[2FourTee]

Think that the transmission would go before the diff/axles? Consistent hard launches will put alot of wear on your car much faster than you would think, its hard on more than your drivetrain. You should go with a tial housing and just V-band it all

Most of the time, people break trannies before they brake diff/axles on 240's. The diffs are fairly beefy, really. Honda S2000 owners have been know to swap to the R200 rear end because it holds much more power than their OEM diffs.

[sunnys14]

Thanks bud, I couldnt have asked for more indepth conversation about turbos, I love talking about them. Where does precisions line of turbo fall in the equation? If you guys want to keep talking about turbo and their capabilitys?

I think I read somewhere that Precision uses Garrett wheels but manufacter their own housings. I could be wrong.

[480sx]

^ Pretty sure thats right. Precision turbos have gone WAY down hill in the last year or so, my friend has rebuilt some precision turbos that were just.. Horribly made.

HTA i believe makes their own compressor wheel, but uses garretts turbine wheel.

[sunnys14]

Garrett ftw <3 <3 <3

I just love ball bearing response (and the sound too =P)

[GTR PrYdE]

^ Pretty sure thats right. Precision turbos have gone WAY down hill in the last year or so, my friend has rebuilt some precision turbos that were just.. Horribly made.

HTA i believe makes their own compressor wheel, but uses garretts turbine wheel.

Precision has kicked a$$ on a billet wheel'd turbo called the 6262, it made 784whp at 48psi on a T3, and is still going strong. It's also not too much laggier than a 35r... so at least those are solid. They cost around $1300

And for HTA, Forced Performance made that line of turbo's which is 100% correct, with a billet compressor wheel, and regular turbine wheel.

They have the HTA35r- spools better than a reg 35r, and makes more top end on a .63 ar housing. Nice.

They also have a HTA35 86, with a .82 ar housing, which spools almost exactly the same a reg 35r, but has already made over 700whp (50-100whp over reg 35r)

Only thing with HTA turbos; they cost like $1600-1800

[spooled240]

Garrett ftw <3 <3 <3

I just love ball bearing response (and the sound too =P)

ball bearing turbo's sound different?

[shimizu_17]

^ they sorta make a whistling noise like chipped turbo diesal trucks. Atleast the BB turbo's ive heard did.

[spooled240]

so I take it they are really loud? I saw some BB turbo's on youtube and they have this screeching whistling sound to them.

[sunnys14]

I dyno'd today, I posted it on a new thread.