MB229.1 and 229.3 Oil specs

[PalmerWMD]

The following oils meet MB229.1 and MB229.3 specs.

Those are Mercedes benz oil specs that are very tight for volatilty, deposit control, lubricity, anti-foaming and are somewhat biased toward hard driving environment w/o being racing oils (which carry their own penalties).

1)Kendall GT-1 FullSynth 5W-402)Chevron Supreme Synthetic 5W-403)Valvoline Synpower 5W-404)Havoline Synthetic 5W-405)Pennzoil Synthetic Euro 5W-406)Mobil 1 0W-40 and 15W-507)Quaker State Synthetic Euro 5W-40 8)Castrol Syntec 10W-40 and 5W-50 (editdont use the 5w-50 in extended drain)

The majority of those oils listed are NOT group IV PAO oils anymore(which are becoming rarer by the month).

Redline and AMSOIL some excellent group IV+ V oils, are not listed, cuz they use additional anti wear additives that the auto industry doesn't like, for catalytic converter warranty reasons (tho many feels they protect engines at <least> as well as API oils).(This keeps them from API certification, which means they can't meet MB229.1,MB229.3 for this reason only)

But in all fairness it does show, that you can meet some pretty tough specs, using group III base stocks, despite what many group IV enthusiasts such as myself say.

Fred...

[ATL alty max]

Which of these is Group 4? Mobil SuperSyn is now a Group 3, right? Group 3 would be fine if the cost was less than $3.00 a quart.

Castrol Syntec (aka syncrap) got away with calling their product a synthetic. Mobil sued and lost.

[PalmerWMD]

MOBIL1 is still PAO, even in the newer formulation.It seems the supersyn is for real and not a step back, like we had when MOBIL1 switched to trisyn, which was a step down in some PPL's opinion.Valvoline includes some PAO group IV, and some esters (group V but is now (recent change) mostly group III in its base oil.

Chevron Supreme synthetic it seems to be made in 2 places one of which uses PAO base stock and the other group II+.All others are group III now, (some were recently group IV).

Fred..

[Mayhem_J30]

are those listed in any particular order? what do the different groups mean?

[PalmerWMD]

Group I: traditonal refined lube stockGroup II: well refined oil, tighter fractions achieved with some chemical functional goups modifed, invloving more refining steps originally came about as a method by which refineries could utilize less desirable fractions for lubrication oils.Better heat resistance than group I, but less inherent detergency than group I.They have much in common w/ group III except a lesser VIndex.Group III: hydroisomerized paraffinic base stocks, are excellent lubricants, approach many of the abiltiies of PAO, not considered a true synthetic (outside of marketing depts) because , parafinic fractions oils are taken/refined and with the action of a catalyst modified, so as to optimize their properties as lubricants as well as their uniformity.An easier ( and cheaper?) process than making tru synthetics like:GroupIV: PolyAlphaOlefins, created by taking ethylene gas and using addtion reactions to combine the ethylene gas molecules into a lubricant oil with purpose designed properties.famous for their cold flow abilieties and innate multiviscosity behaviour (meaning less VII's need to make a multi-vis oil)Group V: All other kinds of real synthetic oils, usually this means ester base oil formulations , performance smiliar to PAOs (or better)

Fred...

[PalmerWMD]

They are in the order they are, because I pasted them out of laziness from another contributor on an oil site I frequent.

I dont neccessarily agree with his choice of order though.

I would probably rank the MOBIL1 a higher.Also the Chevron Supreme Syn I might rank higher, if you can get batches made at the location that puts in PAO's.

Fred...

[Mayhem_J30]

so the valvoline supersyn i use is pretty good oil then, right? this is too technical for me but good info. Thanks Fred!

[PalmerWMD]

so the valvoline supersyn i use is pretty good oil then, right? this is too technical for me but good info. Thanks Fred!

While I do believe SynPower has slipped lately, I still rate it highly for our applications.My current fill is ValvolineSynPower 5w-40 (which i will run thru the KY winter)

I am however, just out of principle very disapointed with them on their recent subsitution of much (not all) of their GroupIV for group III.This will affect primarily the oils ability to stand up to extended drains over 7000 miles, as well as extreme cold start behaviour.

I still think their detergent package is excellent, as are their desicions with regards to where in the "spread"of API viscosity ratings they formulate their oils.

Still kinda mad about their formulation change tho, especially as it is not reflected on their website and even in their email answers to me from their chemistry folks (!).

It took no small amount of detective work to find out what the bulk of their actual base stock is now.

Fred...

[UncleBen]

hey Fred what is the best alternative for that synpower 5W-40 i put in my car that you got me? no place around here has it that i have seen. i still have 2 quarts left, and i don't want that to go to waste, so is there another oil out there that is very similar to the specs of that type of oil? so basically, what would you put in your car if you couldn't put that synpower in?

[Mayhem_J30]

so do you do this stuff at work? analyzing oil..

[PalmerWMD]

SilviaSe:Solution1): It should last you to the last meet, when I can bring more of itSolution 2): Use MOBIL1 0w-40 for the entire fill(also not easy to find always, but often stocked at Autozone's). I rather not have u mix 2 such differnt oils.technically it's still supposed to be ok but I would be too paranoid to to it to my own car so i wont recommend it for yours Solution 3) Mix with 10w-30 or 5w-30 SynPower same additive chemistry, you will dilute the 40 weight of it down a bit to a 35 weight which is no problem.The SynPower 10w-30 and 5w-30 can be had most anywhere.

Fred...

[PalmerWMD]

so do you do this stuff at work? analyzing oil..

Not if I am doing what I am supposed to...

Fred..

[UncleBen]

thanks for the responce Fred. i would really like it to last till the next meet, but i doubt it. i have seen 5W-30 at places, just none of the 5W-40. so i guess i'll get some of that 5W-30 next time. thanks!

[texasoil]

I know there is a lot of confusion about Group III vs Group IV base oils. A group II base oil has a viscosity index as high as 120. Group III base oils are more than 120, as are Group IV's.

In lubrication aspect, there is no measurable diferences between good Group I, Group II, Group III, and Group IV. In fact, in very high loads like on camshaft lobes, plain Group I works better than plain Group IV.

What you get with Goup II is lower sulphur, lower unsaturated compounds, and better control of volatility. Low sulphur content is being pushed for 'protection of emission contol systems (catalysts)' Lower volatility is being pushed so Auto Mfg claimed fuel economy does not deteriorate of life of the recomended oil change interval (the Fed' are getting wise to all the 'tweaks, bat wings, pinch of skoal etc. the auto guys have been using). Lower unsaturated compounds tends to mean longer life in the crankcase before deposits and crud start forming and the oil thickens. ( less amounts of the detergent additives are needed, again reducing the risk to catalysts.)

Group IV base oils are well known for excellent flow properties at low temperatures. Group III base oils are not quite as good there, but are very good. In the engine, the 2 base oils (grp III and grp IV are identical in performance. Both are essentially isoparaffins (grp IV's have one double bond between the last 2 carbon atoms. They look the same physically, and behave the same almost completely. Grp III's are much more environmental friendly since they come from oil rather than being synthesized from natural gas (it is insane to take a clean fuel like nat gas and process it into a compound which is easire to extract from petroleum.

The REAL performance is mostly determined by the additive package in the finished blend. grp IV's have poor solubility, and the additive packages actually must contain some of the lower quality Grp I and Grp II diluents to keep the additives dissolved. Grp III base stocks are better that Grp IV, wors that Grp II. In my opinion, Grp II base oils are the all around best for engines in most conditions.

[PalmerWMD]

[quote=" texasoil

1)In the engine, the 2 base oils (grp III and grp IV are identical in performance. They look the same physically, and behave the same almost completely. 2)Grp III's are much more environmental friendly since they come from oil rather than being synthesized from natural gas 3)The REAL performance is mostly determined by the additive package in the finished blend. 4)grp IV's have poor solubility, and the additive packages actually must contain some of the lower quality Grp I and Grp II diluents to keep the additives dissolved. 5)Grp III base stocks are better that Grp IV, wors that Grp II. In my opinion, Grp II base oils are the all around best for engines in most conditions. [/quote]

1)That's the one thing I have trouble with. If I do a synthesis I have complete control over the product, but isomerizations? Not so good control. you always get rearrangemets that don't work out the way you want them to, and cuz products are now so utterly similiar, it should be nigh impossible to fractionate those byproducts you didnt want, out of the end product.A synthesis by byproduct should be much easier to get rid of, in a group IV production.2) Agreed3) This is a point many of the quality niche oil marketers (like Lucas, Royal purple, Schaeffers) have been arguing for some time, and we all agree the additive is very important.4) This has always been a problem w/ group IV's but I dont see how this is much of an issue, since the base stock has some properties formerly reserved for additives.5) group III's are not bad oils otehrwise they wouldn't meet the specs listed above, but a priori I believe you have more control over the end product when maing a group IV and as a result I give group IV the nod.

Also what about those studies done by various manufacturers of nearly 0 wear involving multi hour engine running w/ a group IV?No one has attempted such a study with a group III.

Either way, it appears my Valvoline has now switched to a group III from a group IV in their SynPower (which is not reflected on their website yet and their tech answer folks have been evasive about but one look at the MSDS cleared it up) , but I still run their oil.Haven't made a final descison yet on wether to switch to 0w-40 MOBIL1 for the groupIV, or stay with 5w-40 SynPower.

Texasoil you know how much I respect your judgment, so let me ask you, which oil are you running?A group III or?

Fred...:peace

[texasoil]

I personally run Valvoline semisynthetic. In my opinion its higher solvency is desirable in my higher mileage engines (92 Q45a, 113K, owned 3.5yrs since 90K, 94 Q45a 103K , owned 2 years since 90K), 94 MBZ sl600 (V12), owned 2 yrs, since 79K) All have Valvoline semisynthetic 10W 30 now, 20W50 summer (Houston Tx)

I used to run Mobil 1 exclusively, but discovered clear varnish laydown in my previous MBZ 560sel with 5000 mile changes! Cleaned right up with the Valvoline semisynthetic. Since I continue to use Chervon premium exclusively, it was not gasoline causing the problem, but the oil detergancy and my driving habits (too much short trip for the drain interval). Now 6 month or, 3500 miles max.

One must remember the PAO's are a mix of molecules, not exact copies of each other. They have nearly as much variation as good grp III stuff. People far more knowledgeable about the details of these molecular types have assurred me they are essentially identical. There is no such thing as 'pure component' in higher hydrocarbons. Entropy rules.

One interesting note-- when the PAO gets into the combustion chamber, it tends to 'burn' completely, making no 'oil smoke' and leaving no residue. Once it starts to oxidize, it goes completely.

I used to work in lubes with a major oil company, and every summer we ran test fleets in south Texas, 70 MPH 24/7, A/C on high, roof racks. Different oil formulations, different fuels, a host of test stuff. After 40K miles the vehicles were disassembled and inspected. (NO OIL OR FILTER CHANGEs mind you.) "old' Havoline 20w and 10W40 , running the Firechief and Skychief standard pump gasoline(the 'standards) routinely completed the tests with all parts within new manufacturing tolerances and no measurable wera. Even did radioactive tracer studies (irridate top piston ring.etc. ) Different fuels (no detergents) would often suffer engine failure before completing the test. Skychief engines were always cleaner though.

So, when I see/hear about 100,000 mile tests, (with regular oil and filter changes) run 24/7, I am not impressed.That's less than 2000 hours of operation. Give me a NYc taxi test for a full 12 months( winter and summer) with 25000 mile changes--then talk to me.

Me oil is cheap, hard parts expensive. Better to change more frequently than buy expensive advertizing and 'gee whiz magic' oil

[PalmerWMD]

1)I personally run Valvoline semisynthetic. In my opinion its higher solvency is desirable in my higher mileage engines (92 Q45a, 113K, owned 3.5yrs since 90K, 94 Q45a 103K ,

2)One must remember the PAO's are a mix of molecules, not exact copies of each other. They have nearly as much variation as good grp III stuff. People far more knowledgeable about the details of these molecular types have assurred me they are essentially identical. 3)One interesting note-- when the PAO gets into the combustion chamber, it tends to 'burn' completely, making no 'oil smoke' and leaving no residue. Once it starts to oxidize, it goes completely.

4)oil is cheap, hard parts expensive. Better to change more frequently than buy expensive advertizing and 'gee whiz magic' oil

1) this is the exact reason I run ValvolineSynPower, I believe them to have an excellent detergent package.Are you sure your good results are due to the inherent detergency of the base oils used in the durablend?Cuz When I switched from MOBIL1 to SynPower I see the SYnPower picking up things in the first 24 hours that the MOBIL1 left behind (but not conversely) So I am thinking they are using a real good detergent package in the Valvoline oils in general (at least in the higher tier oils), which is why I like to run it in my higher mile engine.2)Hmm, good info.3)That's somethign extra in favor of PAO's..4)agreed that;s why we recommend against extended drain intervals on this site,--> even with full syn + premium filter I change at 2800 to 3300 miles.

Fred....

[PalmerWMD]

UPDATE:

Just recently Castrol Syntec is now sold in a 0w-30 that's made in Germany.

Unlike the rest of the Syntec line its a PAO oil!:thumbup

Syntec as many folks will remember, is the originator of the infamous "group III lubestock as synthetic" trend.

I guess with a grade as thin as 0w-30 there is no way they could have gotten it approved against ACEA A3, BMW longlifem MB 229 etc, without changing the formulation from that of their other Syntec oils to a full PAO synthtic.This applies ONLY to their 0w-30, so the rest of their line is still Group III.

Good to know.

Fred...

[PalmerWMD]

Another Update:

Shell Helix Ultra 5w40 and Rotella T Synthetic 5w40 both use Shell's XHVI, which is Shells propriatory hi end group III.

The Rotella T Synthetic 5w40 is a "diesel oil" that is also approved for gas engines, it is known for its robust detergent package and may be a good alternative for those who wish a "drive clean" oil, but want to keep at least a group III or higher in their engine and dont want to dilute their lube stock w/ MMO and others.

Fred...

PS: I realize, many will never see, some of the oils I am listing on your local shelves, but I wish to list them for completeness sake.

[PalmerWMD]

Also those facing hot summers should consider use of the 50 weight versions of some of the oils listed in the beginning of this thread.

Fred...

[gyfer]

100% Interesting information. 80% unfamiliar terms. 0% anything remembered. (pass 1am... )

Any information on Mobil Delvac 1 (US, not Euro)? I heard is 'God of all oil' due to its superior cleaning agent, and velocity after long period of oxidation.

[PalmerWMD]

Delvac 1 is a very good oil indeed.Both in the syn and non syn versions.I would run it in a dirty engine, as a "drive clean" oil, since as a Diesel oil it has great detergents.

It is Primarily a Diesel oil, but rated as an SL as well.I know many have had great success running it in a gas engine and I ahve been watching it for some time as well.

especially the Synthetic 5w-40 stuff and it seems to work well in gas engines, still I am not quite ready to recommend a Diesel oil on this board.

Fred...

[AZhitman]

The Rotella T Synthetic 5w40 is a "diesel oil" that is also approved for gas engines, it is known for its robust detergent package and may be a good alternative for those who wish a "drive clean" oil, but want to keep at least a group III or higher in their engine and dont want to dilute their lube stock w/ MMO and others.

It's also about 1/3 the price of Mobil 1.

If it's got the "Fred Seal of Approval", I'm gonna go buy a case.

[gyfer]

I have HLA noice on my car (mazda. Common in Mitsubishi, BMW, and etc). I want an oil that really remove the carbon away for good. I have try Chevy Techron FI cleaner. The noise went away (or less noisy), but come back again. Clearly my all-time-support Mobil 1 doesn't do a really good job.

Say, I am going out to buy 4 quart of oil. In cost/quality measure, which one I should go for ?

For the weight 50 oil: I know why you want something 5wXX or 0wXX due to oil is more "liquidy" during cold/winter. But for 50 weight.... engine tempeture will operate 87celcuis most of time.... how does the weight 50 oil help ?

[PalmerWMD]

Actually 87C is more typical of coolant but not oil.

depedning on load and engine design oil runs 20-30F hotter than coolant.

So 220F and more oil temps is not unusualviscosity is emasured at 100C (=212F).

Better boundary layer protection is often seen with thicker oils.

Fred...

[PalmerWMD]

Say, I am going out to buy 4 quart of oil. In cost/quality measure, which one I should go for ?

If you are really serious about clearing up that lifter noise ypou can go for the delvac (SL rated).

Or you can try ValvolineSYnPOwer 5w-40, also cleans a bit better than MOBIL1 but not as well as Delvac.

Fred...

[Kaioshin1982]

The following oils meet MB229.1 and MB229.3 specs.

Those are Mercedes benz oil specs that are very tight for volatilty, deposit control, lubricity, anti-foaming and are somewhat biased toward hard driving environment w/o being racing oils (which carry their own penalties).

1)Kendall GT-1 FullSynth 5W-402)Chevron Supreme Synthetic 5W-403)Valvoline Synpower 5W-404)Havoline Synthetic 5W-405)Pennzoil Synthetic Euro 5W-406)Mobil 1 0W-40 and 15W-507)Quaker State Synthetic Euro 5W-40 8)Castrol Syntec 10W-40 and 5W-50 (as a caveat Syntec has not done well in extended drain analyses in some Nissan/Infiniti Engines)

The majority of those oils listed are NOT group IV PAO oils (which are becoming rarer by the month).Redline and AMSOIL some excellent group IV+ V oils, are not listed, cuz they use additional anti wear additives that the auto industry doesn't like, for catalytic converter warranty reasons (tho many feels they protect engines at <least> as well as API oils).(This keeps them from API certification, which means they can't meet MB229.1,MB229.3 for this reason only)

But in all fairness it does show, that you can meet some pretty tough specs, using group III base stocks, despite what many group IV enthusiasts such as myself say.

Fred...

dude... im sorry... I HAVE NO FREAKING ANY IDEA WHAT ANY OF THOSE MEAN! Im clueless :help

whats the best oil for '89 S13?

[PalmerWMD]

dude... im sorry... I HAVE NO FREAKING ANY IDEA WHAT ANY OF THOSE MEAN! Im clueless :help

whats the best oil for '89 S13?

The 2 easiest to find of my favorite oils, which are listed above (except for the Syntec which is not a favorite), are MOBIL1 0w-40 and ValvolineSYnPower 5w-40.

Any one of those oils listed above will do very well.I run MOBIL1 0w40 right now (Autozone, sometimes a WALMART may have it, SOmetiems fleet and farm)

Fred...

[PalmerWMD]

If you are looking for those oils and cant find any of them, look thru your local listings for "oil suppliers" and call them and ask for any of the oils 1) thru 7).

Fred...

[Kaioshin1982]

thanx alot for the info