cool. I plan on switching to e85 when gas prices rise this spring(3.50+). Right now it is not worth it for me to switch. Regular is 2.99 and e85 is 2.84. I am going to convert my 93 civic (stock daily) to run e85 before i do it to the ka-t. I check a few forums last night and the stock honda fuel system can run e85. Plus chrome is so easy to tune. I am just going to start in the first column and add 15% more fuel and then every column after that i add 2% more (15, 17, 19 ect). It ends up making the last column 33% more fuel over gas. Then i am going to add 3 degrees timing to the lower half of the map. However i heard it is a good idea to have a extra fuel filter with you because all the dirt in your fuel system will clog it up real quick.

Thanks for the info

p.s.
my wideband (tech edge) can display lambda so i am going to start tuning with it. I am just so used to afr's.

So explain to me. The AFR's display different than the Lambda? And all you have to do is swap your Wide Band to display Lambda, and you're all set?
So what is the 'cruise' and 'WOT' Lambda settings? Sort of like 14.8 AFR, and 11.8 AFR respectively..

I fail. You can say it...

The stoichiometric AFR is different for every fuel. For Gasoline it's 14.7:1, Propane is 15:1, Compressed Natural Gas is 17:1, Ethanol (not E85) is 9:1, etc.

Most widebands read the AFR so if you switch fuels, they aren't really giving you the correct reading anymore. The innovate (and maybe others) allows you to tell it what fuel your using and it will output the correct reading.

Where as 0 Centigrade is Freezing, and 32 Fahrenheit
Lambda is 1 for stoichiometric, and 14.7 for AFR stoichiometric? <--Gas
Lambda is 1 for stoichiometric, and 9 for AFR for Corn Gas(E85)?

Lambda just goes 1 down the line, for stoichiometric mixture, no matter what fuel...?

Sorry guys, I really abuse this stuff. I need to hit google.. lol But what sucks if I don't know what I'm looking for, I can't really find it...?

...I'm going to bed.

When I first started using alcohol injection, I only had a knock alert from MSD. I'd crank the boost till I registered a slight knock, then I would add alcohol 2 psi earlier then that point. Obviously the problem here is that you have no idea how much alcohol, you're injecting and you need more then one stage to avoid bogging the motor in order to run ALOT of boost. I was running enough boost that my injectors maxed out and I was using the alcohol as a fuel source. Because it was just easier to keep the stock injectors/ecu tune and add a bunch of alcohol.

This is where I ran into problems. To much alcohol will not only bog the motor, but it will unspool the turbo because it burns so much colder. Atleast when it's injected using the method I was at the time.

I ended up buying the Innovate LM1 wide band O2 meter and swear by it to this day. The only thing I knew at this point from reading through the Buick forums was that alcohol has a lower stoich point then pump gas. Since I was using alcohol as a fuel source on high boost, when the alcohol injection turned on, I made sure my afr's were in the 10:1 range since I was still using pump gas as well the alcohol.

Then I read about tuning for Lambda. Since Lambda is a constant I could tune for .8 lambda under WOT no matter what combination of fuel I was running. I'm pretty sure this is how the flex fuel vehicles work also.

All my friends over on Okinawa couldn't believe how much power I was putting down with a stock RB20 using alcohol. It was pretty new at that point, at least on Skylines.

Does that make sense to anyone besides me...lol?

Here's another graph I found.

Truth is Treason in the Kingdom of Lies - Ron Paul

I think the LC-1/cheap narrowband gauge is a good combo. Until I can find a dedicated, standalone lambda gauge that I can run the output from the LC-1 into, I'll keep using it.

Ive got a 1992 240sx with a High Compression KA24DE. 11:1 compression forged aluminum pistons.

I plan on using 370cc injectors, and a walboro fuel pump. Also gonna use an additive that is supposed to keep the E85 from eating up things and also makes your car smell like fruit/candy. My buddy uses the additive on his E85 turbo civic hatch that makes well over 600hp.

This sound like its gonna work? Am i gonna have to go out and get a wideband o2/lambda sensor too?

I am not going to boost it.

Thanks!

If you're doing the tuning yourself, you'll NEED it.

How are you planning on compensating for the additional fuel requirements?

I also asked Quincy from Q-Garage about tuning my ecu. He mention of someone who is running a totally stock 240 with 370 injectors, a walboro pump, and E85 and making more power out of it with stock ECU no tune. Now with my high comp. pistons and cams i should be able to benefit from this also...

Now im worried about the o2 sensor freaking out the ECU since it would be running on E85.

He will probably need bigger injectors if he is going to run E85 though.

My whole perpose of running E85 is to get more power out of it by changing the timing and and eventually pull some more power by getting the ECU tuned.

Does anyone thing im going to run into a major problem running the same o2 sensor i ran with gasoline? I still dont quite get that part...

It won't affect your stock o2 sensor either, but for a wideband you need one that can read down to 7-8:1 AFR. Innovate widebands can do this, to name one.

The alcohol can damage your stock fuel pump because it lacks the lubricant that regular pump gas has, or at least the amount of the lubricant. Yes there are people that have run and are running E85 with basically no changes to their stock stuff, other then increasing fuel. But it "can" cause problems.

I just don't want everyone skipping to the end of this thread and thinking there are no hazards at all.

WD

Im running 11:1 compression ratio according to JE Pistons. Thats my excuse for the possible "need" for E85.

I know this is a KAT thread and im sorry for NA'ing is all up lol. Im trying to get as much as possible out of this KA to prove what it is capable of NA. So far ive spend more that a SR swap on this but not by much. I built the whole thing myself with some help from others and people like you all that answer my questions on the forum. Id like to say thanks in advance for helping me out with this!

Its true i may not need the additive but with the forged aluminum pistons im running, i dont want to take the chance.

Lots of timing and 11:1 should be fun...but you'll never hit 200whp.

WD

AMS did a test on letting various fuel parts from an evo plus a walbro in jars of E85 for months. No corrosion was found at all. The only useful bit of that was that it's proven that walbro's can take it

WD

WD

it's true that the high octane of e85 won't inherently make more power on a non-knock limited engine. however, stoich combustion of e85 releases more heat than combustion of regular gasoline. the extra heat increases the pressure, resulting in more power.

you can look up the heating values for e85 and gasoline, and divide them by their respective stoich ratios to verify this.

Houston 240sx owners click here!

Texas 240sx owners click here!

EGT data says so.

My statement stands uncorrected. E85 has NO benefit on a NA motor or one without increased compression and or timing. BTU's aside...

WD

i'm gonna try to look something up...

Modified by crzycav86 at 10:22 AM 3/4/2008

WD

"Actually, when referring to alcohol fuels, the word "octane" does not apply, since octane (in its pure form) is merely the hydrocarbon in gasoline which is assigned the numerical value of 100 for fuel-rating purposes. The octane number given automotive fuels is really an indication of the ability of the fuel to resist premature detonation within the combustion chamber. (Premature detonation, or engine knock, comes about when the fuel/air mixture ignites spontaneously toward the end of the compression stroke because of intense heat and pressure within the combustion chamber. Since the spark plug is supposed to ignite the mixture at a slightly later point in the engine cycle, pre-ignition is undesirable, and can actually damage or even ruin an engine.)

Because a high compression ratio in an engine results in more power per stroke, greater efficiency, and better economy, it's easy to see why a fuel that resists pre-ignition even under high compression conditions is especially desirable ... and alcohol is, on the average, about 16 points higher on the research octane scale than premium gasoline.

HEAT VALUE

The heating value of a fuel is a measure of how much energy we can get from it on a per-unit basis, be it pounds or gallons. When comparing alcohol to gasoline using this "measuring stick", it's obvious that ethanol contains only about 63% of the energy that gasoline does ... mainly because of the presence of oxygen in the alcohol's structure. But since alcohol undergoes different changes as it's vaporized and compressed in an engine, the outright heating value of the ethanol isn't as important when it's used as a motor fuel.

The fact that there's oxygen in the alcohol's structure also means that this fuel will naturally be "leaner" in comparison to gasoline fuel without making any changes to the jets in the carburetor. This is one reason why we must enrich the air/fuel mixture (add more fuel) when burning alcohol by increasing the size of the jets, which we'll discuss further in another section.

VOLATILITY

The volatility of a fuel refers to its ability to be vaporized. This is an important factor, because if vaporization doesn't occur readily, the fuel can't be evenly mixed with air and is of little value in an engine. Some substances that are highly volatile can't easily be used as a motor fuel ... and others, which have excellent heating value, aren't volatile enough to be used in an engine (such as tars and waxes).

Another point to keep in mind is that a very volatile fuel is potentially dangerous, because of the chance of explosion from heat or sparks. This is one reason why alcohol, with a higher flash point than gasoline, is a much safer automotive fuel ... especially considering that the average car's storage tank is really quite vulnerable.

LATENT HEAT OF VAPORIZATION

Latent heat of vaporization is the phenomenon that results in an alcohol-powered engine's running cooler than its gasoline-fueled counterpart. When a substance is about to undergo a change in form (from a liquid to a vapor, in this case), it must absorb a certain amount of additional heat from its surroundings in order for the change to take place. Since alcohol must absorb roughly 2-1/2 times the amount of heat that gasoline does, and the heat naturally is taken from the engine block, the engine should operate at a much lower temperature ... in theory, that is.

What happens in reality is that the alcohol/air mixture doesn't have time to absorb all the heat it could during its short trip through the engine manifold. So instead of running 2-1/2 times cooler on alcohol than it does on gasoline (which, by the way, would not be desirable ... since an engine must retain a certain amount of heat to run efficiently), the engine operates at temperatures only slightly cooler - about 20-40 deg F lower, depending on the specific engine when using alcohol fuel."

WD

For now, I will modify what I said above: e85 combustion does produce more energy at a stoich air-fuel ratio compared to gasoline, but because it starts at a significantly cooler temperature, e85 combustion does not results in higher temperatures required to produce more torque.

I am going to run some numbers to convince myself though. Good call.

If its a lubricating problem them could you run a little marvel mystery oil in every tank or every other tank. You can pick up a pretty big bottle for a few buck. It would probably last 6 month and that is going through a tank a week. I just dont know if it is mystery oil is ok to mix with e85. You can run it with gas, diesel, and in your crank case so i think it would be ok.

What do you think?

WD

overall the car just runs better and has a lot more topend. These pulls were done in third gear (it was fourth for the manual)at about 22-24psi. I have multiple stations near my house so it is easy to get and cheaper than $6.00+ for race gas.

At first i ran it as low as possible before i filled up. The went and bought some E85 and instantly when i drove a block and let it idle i could tell the car was having problems Idling. On the drive home i opend it up..as well as it would and they way My RPM's climbed was as if my MAF was bad. They climbed slow and at times i could feel flat spots and even saw it in the rpm gauge . I tried to spin the tires in first...lol i got a chirp...this was on bald tires..

Once i arrived home i listen to the motor you could hear injectors struggling, So i turned it off I popped of the spark plugs closed the gap a bit and advanced the timing on the distributor as much as possible. To try and get all this gas to burn right as well as the stock ka ecu could. Also..my spark plugs 2 and 4 were toasted after this. I started her up again...she settled down ran better then previous drive..but still not its full potential. No im back to 93 oct. and for now that feels good, as im sure i got alot of build up out of there.

just thought id let you guys know ....if theres anything else id be willing to help...

oh also..i think it might have killed my o2 sensor...and i just replaced it....-_-

Quote, originally posted by dickie »

i want a fake id too, but i want mine to be from the local high school to make me seem YOUNGER. "yeah i just turned 19 sweetheart, let me get another beer for you and your friend."

I AR I LEARNED'D <blink 182 fan for life>

I was going to type out a long detailed reply, but I don't have the time nor patience. Suffice it to say that you did everything wrong that could be done wrong...

THIS IS NOT THE CORRECT WAY TO RUN E85, IN FACT, IT'S EXACTLY HOW NOT TO DO IT.

WD

Quote, originally posted by xckid »

ok, well then if you dont mind id like to hear how the correct way to run E85 is...i know you need a tune and bigger injectors. At least, i was just trying to see what the stock 240 can take

Modified by GTR PrYdE at 3:52 PM 3/10/2008

Woah dude...you can't just tell someone to read...LOL.

i made my first post here while i was reading on page 3, and i was readily to try and help so i made the post and then fell asleep......