well yeah, nothing happens over night. i'm assuming everyone interested in this project wants it to run for over a year though.

what do you mean "let it evap"? if you have ethanol in the lines, it will corrode. it's not like the gas magically leaves the lines when you turn the car off.

replacing fuel lines isn't really difficult either, so it's not a big deal, but it's still something that needs to be done.

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The point I was making is that I spent some serious time studying this, and so I think it is worth considering my point of view.

There are many nations using it, and for various reasons. I am just saying, this is how the free market will work. It will only get used when it is economically feasible or ecologically necessary. This is the reality of the American Free Market Economy, sorry.

Also, you will LOSE HP when using it. This is at least initially, like my point of EFI, eventually technology will provide us with solutions that will fix this. Example 1988 Honda Civic SI HP = 96chp, 2007 Honda Civic SI HP = 197chp. Technology made EFI the obvious choice, but at first there was a serious loss of power.

Eventually, we will find E85 to be a better solution, but there are many factors, not just because it is the right thing to do. Which we all know that it is.

Also, I feel like the octane argument is flawed because that is not the only key characteristic of fuels. One of the most important to us is that of power content (AKA BTU's). As Cav or Two40 (one of you guys) pointed out, ethanol has 76K BTU per lb, and gasoline is about 115K depending on the contents (which hydrocarbons). Also, given that a gallon of gas is 5.8-6.5lbs (depending on the level of cycloparrifins C6 or higher - typically a product of it's octane level) vs. 6.5lbs for ethanol.

This means that a gallon of ethanol can yield 6.5 * 76000 = 494000/2542.5 (constant for converting BTU's/hr to HP) = 194.3HP
5.8 * 115000 = 667000/2542.5 = 262.34HP. This is a power loss of about 26%.

So you have to run about 2.276 lbs more mass to make ethanol make the same power (about 35% more fuel). Compound that with the fact that the stoich ratio is 9:1 means that you may be running more fuel just to make stoich, running rich may work similarly to fuel, where an overly rich mixture causes a further power loss.

More to come.

It will happen, but it will be a series of baby steps not the performance gain you were looking for.

If you want higher octane, the most economical answer is to get Xylene or Toulene from the paint store, and mix it with your fuel. It has an AKI (anti-knock index) of 107 or so. This means something in the 120+ octane range. Mixed with fuel, it can create a great increase in octane, for only $10 or so a gallon. Also, since it has a higher specific gravity, you can lean out further to achieve a stoich ratio. There is your performance answer.

What you need to ask yourself, is with a BTU content of about 135K per lbs in Diesel, why isn't it your performance choice?

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I think this argument is a little misleading or incorrect altogether.

Your argument seems to imply that ethanol will make less because it has lower BTU/gallon. However, you only consider the power output per gallon of fuel, and you tie it into engine output, but your comparison is flawed. You compare the hp differences at the same fuel flow rate(1 gallon/1 hour), which is is not possible because of the different stoich ratios.

What I tried to point out in my initial post was that although E85 has fewer BTU's per gallon, it also has a much richer stoich ratio(which you pointed out as a flaw..?), so you will be able to make up for the fact that ethanol is "less potent" by adding more of it in each engine cycle - making up for its lack of quality(in the BTU dept. anyway) with sheer quantity.

This in itself might make up for BTU/engine cycle difference, but coupled with the fact that higher octane will allow you to run more boost, tune ignition closer to MBT, and run higher compression, E85 as a performance fuel is a no-brainer.

However, I do agree with your economics argument.. but that's the only reason why I won't be using it for my next project. There just aren't enough gas stations with E85.

Modified by crzycav86 at 12:24 AM 12/14/2006

Modified by crzycav86 at 12:27 AM 12/14/2006

WD

Truth is Treason in the Kingdom of Lies - Ron Paul

I think the jury is still out that you can inject a more and get the same power (meaning to reach a stoich ratio). From what I am finding, there is a very slight power loss, which as everyone pointed out can be offset by more aggressive tuning measures. So it seems the principle drawbacks are lack of availability, and price per mile.

So I have said it a dozen times already, when it becomes available and cheaper than gasoline I will use it.

BTW, it's not about high boost for me, but higher compression and relatively high boost, FTW. <= Better Thermal Efficiency

I ran a ton of Meth on my Skyline over in Oki. I wouldn't have been able to hit 498whp without it. The intake manifold was alot better designed though. The TB is placed in the center of the intake runners, so methonal injection is evenly dispersed...I worry about that on the KA. Atleast I worry about running such a high boost and relying on the methonal as a fuel source, not just detonation prevention.

What are you're thoughts on the initial timing map. I was thinking I'll advance it 5 degree's, then have it pull .5 out per lb of boost to start my tuning. Maybe a full degree to start the tuning, then bring it back. I was only retarding it .5 while running pump gas though...

Good times ahead.

My timing is only being contrlled by the BTM, which sucks, but I already have it installed so...

I have a boost controller installed inline, so I can limit the amount of boost the unit see's. That allows me a tiny bit more flexibilty. I'll start at pulling .5 per lb and work back from there.

I need to go grab a new motor so I can actually begin working on this.

Let me know when you arrive man, first round is on me.

WD

Totally understand your price thought but I use E85 as race fuel in first hand, a lot cheaper than VSP fuel and we dyno the same numbers as race fuel.
The big hp cars here ran VSP on the streets before and now E85 to a 10:th of the price per gallon (over here).

You only need to run really rich at boost and still possible to tune it cheap for daily driving. Some piggy back or standalone users got a gas program as back up for daily driving but not that common.

Another thing we noticed is the EGT, a lot lower and this will save both turbo, O2 sensor and manifold.

And last, feels good to help our tree´s live a few years longer. We need to start using other types of fuel soon and why not start slow now?
Probably stupid to discuss nature with US guys but yeah..

I don't want to hear about nature unless I am mining it, cutting it down, or pouring things in it!

Quote, originally posted by Craving4Boost »

what are the downfalls of using toluene? also, with e85, how will this affect smog? better? worse? I live in CA and it's very easy to find someone to skip the visual. However, I can't say the same for every other process. Also, I heard toluene makes your exhaust stink like

Toluene is a great help for getting Cancer.

E85 will make your smog guys happy, very happy.

WD

AS far as nitromthane as my example here, Top Fuel cars last I heard burn some 25 gallons of Nitormethane on each run. While this is an extreme case, the lower A/F requirement of nitromethane requires a lot of air as well. As you know, to make more power, or even comparable levels of power to gasoline, you need to pump more air through the motor. This lends these altrernative fuels better suited to forced induction motors and/or larger motors. Larger motors, would probably not be a great idea as the increased reciprocating and rotating mass would appear to work against itself and it's quest for better fuel economy. Leaving forced iduction as the better choice. Ethanol is cleaner is it not? If so, this may be an opening for turbos to make it back into the mainstream of automotive production. Perhaps less of the issues we have had with gasoline. From a racing perspective, ethonal appears it may have some advantages, but for passenger cars, getting less than 300 mile+ cruise range on long trips might be hard for many to swallow.

But this leads me to my next question. I know ethanol production is still in it's infancy compared to gasoline, but how viable is it to produce on the scale needed to fuel the US? I have heard of new technology to better use the corn stalk as well as the corn to produce ethanol, but how much of our land will have to be dedicated to corn to make this work on such a large scale? Is it even possible?

With all of the advancements in tech we have, fuel economy has the potential to be a non issue with any fuel. You guys should really look into this direct injection. We've only started to touch the surface on this. DI is expensive to do because of the cost of the injectors alone.

If we had a KA and it were running under DI with whatever fuel, we would be running AFR's in the mid 20's. The injector fires directly into the combustion chamber. This allows for way more precise fuel curves and very lean mixture.

So if mixed, Ethonal would be a great combo with DI. Huge leaps in ignition could be made, emmissions would go down and power would go up. Honestly I see it as a win win.

But thats years away. Until then I'll settle for tons of boost and 105 octane. I'm definitly not retarding my timing at all, even under 20PSI. Worst case, since 20psi will be a race only boost setting, I'll use water injection...

WD

I will have the whole car running today, and I will have E85 running by next weekend and, whats best there is BP gas station lik 2 miles from my house and they have E85 AND Race fuel. Whats even better the E85 is a Buck 45. I already have a tune ready with stock timing, 550cc injectors, and a Z32 MAF. The Safc is allready to go. And my chips are burned. All im going to do is attach my knock sensor to my lower intake Manifold, Hook up the knock light and tune away. Guys I am so excited I could **** my car in the downpipe right now LOL.

Well Done.

WD

There are only a handful in houston, and all of them are a good 30 minute drive from my house.

1: Alcohal approved fuel cell
2: Alcohal approved External Fuel Pump
3: Alcohal approved fuel lines and filter
4:Greddy E-Manage ultimate
5: AMS Gt32 Turbo
6: AMS pro kit internals
7: Complete upgrade in the valve train
8: Bottom mount turbo mani
9: All the othe various crap thats gonna cost big $$$
10: Worlds Largest Bottle Of Asperin for all the headaches im gonna have
11; Unlimited dyno time <---- gonna get pricey

Sounds simple <---- ha yeah right

well ill keep everyone posted on how it goes. car should be up and running by march hopefully.

Sounds simple <---- ha yeah right

well ill keep everyone posted on how it goes. car should be up and running by march hopefully.

Most fuel cells will take E85, it wont dry out the plastic like methanol do.

I´ve use both Walbro and Bosch pumps to E85, no problemo. Bosch got a great external pump called -044, you might need two!

Got one more, you can use a fuel filter from Volvo 940.
They can flow well over 600 hp and got beefy connectors with threads, with an adaptor you can screw it right on the fuel pump. Porn...

You can wipe off the Volvo text with some paper and E85.

Yeah, my last CA had E85 for lunch. Worked fine and impossible to get warm at winter, bigger cooling system and E85, bad combo.

Nope, I used it at summer. Took it out a few times at winter but not in really cold weather.

I had heat problems at hot track days before, when I switched to E85 I kept the bigger radiator system but the engine already ran colder, no need to go bigger system with E85.

About the heated fuel lines, this is a OEM thing, nothing for real men!
Ïf you live in Iceland and need it, mount it later.