Project "Baller"

[meminto]

Its all sealed around the sides, there is an inch of space between the plate and the radiator so air is being directed throught the radiator and diverted back out through the single point where the thermo is sitting..

[karism]

Hi,

Very nice job on the build! I like it!

I must advise against covering the area around the rad fan ,even if it has gap.

The reason for this : The air will not easilly pass through the rad with the closed off area.

You will also be making your fan less efficient,as there will be a gap(formed so the air can pass through the rad when not blowing).The fan will rather draw around around the core,than through it,as it is easier.

In effect you will have a loose-loose situation,as the rad fan wont work efficiently and neither will the air through the rad without the fan.

Rather remove the plate and mount the fan directly on the core of the rad,making sure there are no area of gap at the surround of the fan.If there is a gap,close it with some some exanding foam tape

Not allot of people know that a rad needs only to have 30% coverage by air(or fan) to work effectively.This is why a fan can cool the temps,even if it doesnt cover 100% of the rad

See,my rad fan sits snug as a bug against the core of the rad



Karis

[meminto]

Hi, Cheers for the reply, I have sealed all the edges so the only air that can be pulled through by the fan is through the front of the radiator...

When the vehicle is in motion the air will be pushed through and out the hole where the thermo fan is...

Do you have any documented evidence of cooling temps being affected by my exact setup? If so can you please post it up so I can review?

Cheers...

[karism]

You are welcome!

Well,i dont have any hard documentation on it.Will have to go search

I have done a few viscous to electric conversions over the years,and it did have a noticeable effect when the area around the fan was closed off.

Will your car be drifted??

[saf]

I agree with Kar, loose the plate for eff.

I dont have a link on the net to proove you wrong, but what you have done is made the radiator surface area 14" (looks like a 14) round in flow, even less when you consider the motor and blades.

Shrouded fans work great with butterfly bladed (the big pitch, big blades) clutch fans, as on the S13, Supra etc etc. They work great because they work all the time, and they are set back quite a ways , hence having a lot of displacement behind the rad to shed the heat energy.

A thermatic fan is only there for slow and stopped driving. Anytime you are moving, even at 50kph in subburbia, thats more air than the fan will flow itself, hence you will not have fan activity when you drive, and its when you drive you need to get the air in, and out in the best possible way.

With a thermo, its easy to cool down (not needing a shroud to be eff) when your stopped, as your on .5% cycle duty, 0% throttle and making a hp in heat energy.

Sucks when you make something to loose it, but honestly i would as its going to harm its cooling when driving.

[meminto]

I am happy to receive all kinds of feedback good bad and indifferent, I take suggestions and opinions on board, however:

Thanks for your replies guys, but will people please stop telling me what I should or shouldn't be doing based on one photo and without FACTUAL and CONCLUSIVE data...

I know why a thermo fan is there, how it works and why it works (it is 16" not 14") I understand the theory behind what you are posting, however no-one yet has provided me with any evidence to back up what they are posting.

Until someone provides consistant and conclusive data to the contrary, I am sticking to my guns and staying with my design until such times as..

a) I feel that there is a cooling issue with my design, based on data I gather whilst in operation, in which I will post my findings for everyone to read..

b) See a)

I appreciate your efforts and your opinions, but please link me to your project, so I can see all the hundreds of hours of research and development that you have performed...

Cheers...

[saf]

I appreciate your efforts and your opinions, but please link me to your project, so I can see all the hundreds of hours of research and development that you have performed...

Cheers...

Mem, Understood, and fair enough mate.

I only chimed in to help you with what it is you want to achieve. I have been race-prepping / fabricating / tuning cars and bikes for a long time, i only chimed in for help you would otherwise pay for. Ive seen a few simple mistakes (not of my opinion only, but both ANDRA / CAMS tech and logical race car building) you have made so far, and from memory you said you were a IT person .. so i thought id help a brother out. Ill sit this one out from now.

Good luck with it.

[meminto]

That wasnt entirely directed at you, I just replied....

If you have technical data or documentation from andra/cams then please share it with me and the rest of us...

[meminto]

That wasnt entirely directed at you, I just replied....

If you have technical data or documentation from andra/cams then please share it with me and the rest of us...

[Vetal]

Great build. Hope you will achieve your goals (and raise the plank for CA18DET highest power)

You didn't o-ring the block, did you?

[Vetal]

saf, could you please give a bit more details about oil-pump options on CA18, and breathing/venting system? I'm planning to achieve some 500-550hp with bigger turbo and E85, and don't completely understand those 2 issues you mentioned

[niscort]

saf, could you please give a bit more details about oil-pump options on CA18

the irony is the are no "options".. other than an externally driven pump with a dry sump, tank etc, equaling thousands of dollars of gear required to build such a system...

maybe he is confusing himself with the variety of options available for the rb series of engines

[saf]

the irony is the are no "options"

Incorrect.

.. other than an externally driven pump with a dry sump, tank etc, equaling thousands of dollars of gear required to build such a system...

There you go , you just listed the option. And no, it doesnt equal to thousands of dollars at all, unless your a n00b, just love the bling and want to impress your mates, or do it because it needs to be done (i fall into the third eg).

If you look about on ebay, there are used Barnes, Peterson (these two are the Veyron's of dry sump pumps) and then you have superb pumps like Moroso, Stefs ect, what have a lot f options etc etc. You then have tanks, also you can get for much cheaper, even OBX is now making China tanks (but they are too small in size for my liking) so building a system is far from "thousands of dollars", unless you want it to be.

The beauty of say the moroso (if your on a budget), is also a large number of pulleys, and choice of drive system. And fact is that even if it were a couple grand, thats the cost of a good turbo. Im confused when it comes to this ?. We spend money on overseas AN made fittings, big turbos, custom builds, but we mumble quietly when it gets to ... "oem pump".

The other beauty of this setup is that the CA is known for head drainage issues, and its also common for high rpm. With a 3 or 4 stage dry pump, it will scavenge and make a considerable amount of crankcase vac, something that actually seals rings, makes hp , free's up hp, and gets the oil back down by stopping upwards drafts of air.

In any high perf motor, you want crankcase vac, but you dont want the OEM PCV system. So your getting a reliable and serviceable oil system that wont let you down, getting as a free side effect crankcase vac that you otherwise would have paid big bux for on its own (vac pump), the ability to sit the motor lower (always good), ... with only a drawback. AC system goes. I guess if you really wanted tho there are ways of keeping it and relocating the pump, but where the AC comp sits, thats optimal.

maybe he is confusing himself with the variety of options available for the rb series of engines

Not confusing myself at all.

There are much much better alternatives. Dry sump.

Option 1 : Peterson (lots of pulleys, 2 drive systems)Option 2 : BarnesOption 3 : WeissOption 4 : Moroso ....

You get the pic. In the end, its entirely your choice. Irony is i had this convo with my local Vi-Pec (ex Autronic) dealer who is probably the man when it comes to CA in Aus, and he agree'd that its a step backwards, building motors, big turbos, and OEM pumps when he has also seen them fail.

The choice ... is yours.

[niscort]

lol... ill try in English

dry sumping is one option, therefore there are no "plurals" of the word option. It is the only option.. sure there are many dry sump pump manufacturers, but you even said it yourself

There you go , you just listed the option.... blah etc

As your mr race fabricator offering all this free advise, that I would be paying for otherwise, whats your quote on drive in drive out dry sump and ancillaries installation, no bling... put it into the 3rd category just like yourself and quote as either a 3 or 4 stage..

far from thousands of dollars??

You've experienced this ca head drainage issue?? or just on the wagon.

Also I don't understand the relevance of mentioning the PCV system?? because its OEM? it doesnt work? there is no vaccum?

and who is this mysterious CA man of Aus, that you're name dropping? please don't say its Glenn

[bentvalves]

Toda makes a high volume oil pump for the ca18det.

[saf]

As your mr race fabricator offering all this free advise, that I would be paying for otherwise,

.......

I walked back in again. My fault.

Sorry if i shat on your parade by voicing info.

[niscort]

Toda makes a high volume oil pump for the ca18det.

toga, with a g.... and going by the reviews available even worse than OEM

and saf, would it be better if I implied that your a "n00b" HTFU.

[meminto]

Hi Vetal, No it didn't require o'ringing with the metal head gasket...

Also saf, I am waiting for you to tell me which version of the oil pump tends to have crank gear drive failure most often, in your experience? And what is the nature of the failure?

What is your definition of high RPM?

In the nine years that I have owned, built twice, (its also not the only motor I have built) and maintained my motor, I have never experienced the oil drainage issue that seems to keep being bantered around the forums, can you please explain what the cause of this issue is?

I researched dry sump systems during this build, I talked to people about the concept, as this is not a dedicated track car, I usually only drive it once a month or so, I felt the extra cost, complexity and extra points of failure were more of a significant risk..

I am also curious about who the man for CA in australia is...

Cheers...

[Vetal]

Guys let's calm down a bit, this thread was a great source of info and then you start to bash one another for now reason... Let's keep it more technical I also didn't hear about oil drainage problems before, what are they? Also, I know that many people like Castrol 10W-60 because "it is race oil", I think use of such oil could cause such problems as it is much thicker?

Do you think dry sump system is necessary for 550hp street/drag CA18?And I'm not dumping thousands (in fact, all my 12.8@112mph build costed about 4K, that's including 3 clutches), so even a thousand is huge amount for the external oiling system.

meminto, when do you plan to put yours on the rollers/track?

[boost_boy]

I've been watching this thread for along time to see the feedback relating to this project and I just smile at some of the replies as of late; to the point where I'm going to offer my points of expertise. URGENT:To the poster that wants to see a dry sump or is suggesting one, put one on yours and let's see how it functions. If the guy says his car will not be a dedicated track car, then this discussion about dry sumps should be dead because it's killing his build thread's interest.

As for the toga pumps on a CA18, a waste of $$$. A well or good remanufactured one or a new OEM unit should suffice for a 700whp CA. If you don't build and tune CA motors daily, then it's going to be extremely difficult to pass on your hypothesis without it being dissected. And if one's responses are of the factual nature, please provide the necessary data that will support your claim or step away from the vehicle "per se".

Though OEM pumps can fail, they don't fail often and I personally stand behind them in normal rebuilds and High performance rebuilds as well. I've had a brand new one fail on me, but I quickly recognized it and had it replaced no charge. I've built over 30 CA18 motors and haven't had one complaint yet, besides possibly putting a headgasket on backwards, but even this had no evidence, so I can't say I did. But because of the claim, I gave the individual money for a new headgasket and that was that. No complaints about low oil pressure or a poor build. The bottom line is, this is meminto's project and though your advice is warranted, no need to get into a pissing match because he won't make changes to suit your hypothesis. If he wants to run the oem oil pump on his bling $$$ CA18, that's his choice. If he wants to run A/C, again, that's his choice and I don't think it's fair to be trying to take shots at him because one feels that meminto's build should be done like the hot-shot racers.

I too have a very expensive motor and I run a stock/remanufactured pump. When I build, I monitor cold and hot oil pump performance as well as idle and up to and around 9300rpm and the flow is better than sufficient with very little aeration, so I don't know where some of this B.S. is coming from about the CA oem pump being crap for high performance. But as a proven member and enthusiast, I say let's move past this and let the man orchestrate his thread. It's his car, his money, his show, so all others, let it go and build your own $hit .................

De

[meminto]

I need to get some more cash to my engineer, but at this stage it will be mid to late january for the tuning

[r34 gtr]

Noooo! Thats sooo long from now! I require instant gratification!!

[dash]

there are so many hi-strung CA18s in service for years with nissan oil pump.I'd find a "build" that meets your power goal and use, then copy it.Look how Mobne "punishes" his CA for example! Hom many of us want/need more ?

A couple RB friends beat their brain/$$$$ out with that external pump crap.I told 'em, I'd switch to another motor before I went thru that foolishness.Both got rid of the external eventually. One blew his motor buying used junk moroso pump, after all the fitment headaches. Fk that.BETTER know exactly what you're gettin' into. Can o' worms.

One of 'em is a heavy RB26 powered full street S14, 260? Tomeis, T04Z? & AEM.Runs 7.0s in the 1/8th (=stupid quick) @20-24psi. Beats the snot out of that basicly stock motor at the strip for over 2 years & counting.

[ca18detgabby]

Noooo! Thats sooo long from now! I require instant gratification!!

from what I hear that usually is not a problem for you.

[Rin5]

I've been watching this thread for along time to see the feedback relating to this project and I just smile at some of the replies as of late......, I say let's move past this and let the man orchestrate his thread. It's his car, his money, his show, so all others, let it go and build your own $hit .................

De

Yes! bringin down the hammer and cleaning up this beautiful thread! Thats why CA's = <3

[meminto]

Noooo! Thats sooo long from now! I require instant gratification!!

Sorry about the lack of instant gratification hehehe but all good, it's not that for away..

However, I can provide some extra information of a technical nature..

Final compression ratio: 7.9:1

Cams degree'd in @: Inlet - 106.5, Exhaust -118.5, Lobe Seperation - 112.5

Although the cam degreeing info proabably wont mean much without cam timing event info...

Cheers

[bradt]

from what I hear that usually is not a problem for you.

ZING!

But I agree. That is too long from now. I understand these things take something people call money and that it apparently does not grow on trees. I dont know, it's a foreign concept. Anyway, can't wait to read more!!

[r34 gtr]

If I were to rob old ladies, and send you the money I stole from their purses, could we possibly see pictures sooner than NEXT YEAR?! I'll do it man, I'll do it.

[meminto]

Lol, my engineer said he took some snaps of the completed block before head went on, I will ask if he can email them to me..

No need to steal money from old ladies

[sjbsuperman1425]

Lol, my engineer said he took some snaps of the completed block before head went on, I will ask if he can email them to me..

No need to steal money from old ladies

i think he likes to steal money from old ladies. its part of his evil plan to conquer the earth! lol

but really beautiful project. gotta love the CA's on this forum. and that is pretty low compression. plan on running tons of boost do ya? lol