j-z wrote:those look like they basically do the exact same thing except it gives you a proper stud length. am i missing something here?
nope
thats exactly why you want those.
your thoughts on wheel spacers...
OK, great thread and all, but spacers are bad. period.
spacers, esspecially "washer" style, dont allow the wheel to sit on the hub properlly, allowing vibrations, added weight, and sometimes(as mentioned) worse thread engagement. There's a reason they wont let you run spacers in some race classes(road atlanta won't let you in races..) and i've seen far to many, and heard far too many more stories about spacers ruining things than I care to recount.
as to this"why pay more for something that you dont even need?"
because it's called "doing it right." you can have things three ways:-fast-good-cheap
pick any two, apaprently you want fast and cheap....which isn't going to be good. your play man.
and haveing a spacer is not the same as ahving a thicker wheel...the amterials are separated when you ahve a spoacer, ahving a proper offset wheel-the material is cast or forged into place. this is much better, from any engineering point if you torque down an object(say a nut) to a flat surface of the same diameter, it willb e tigher than if you put a washer between the two mating surfaces...
thats what a spacer does, and its just another reason I refuse(as does dori dori, smith sr and grant and c-kwick)_ to reccomend them to anyone.
-chet
spacers, esspecially "washer" style, dont allow the wheel to sit on the hub properlly, allowing vibrations, added weight, and sometimes(as mentioned) worse thread engagement. There's a reason they wont let you run spacers in some race classes(road atlanta won't let you in races..) and i've seen far to many, and heard far too many more stories about spacers ruining things than I care to recount.
as to this"why pay more for something that you dont even need?"
because it's called "doing it right." you can have things three ways:-fast-good-cheap
pick any two, apaprently you want fast and cheap....which isn't going to be good. your play man.
and haveing a spacer is not the same as ahving a thicker wheel...the amterials are separated when you ahve a spoacer, ahving a proper offset wheel-the material is cast or forged into place. this is much better, from any engineering point if you torque down an object(say a nut) to a flat surface of the same diameter, it willb e tigher than if you put a washer between the two mating surfaces...
thats what a spacer does, and its just another reason I refuse(as does dori dori, smith sr and grant and c-kwick)_ to reccomend them to anyone.
-chet
i know a spacer is not the same as having a thicker wheel. its just like having a different offset kinda. the wheel still stays the same width, it just brings the wheel out further which is what the offset of a wheel does. also, a lug can only go so far on a stud anyways (atleast most factory studs). im sure what im looking to do wont interfere with using a spacer type. if it did i would get longer studs or the ones in the link, but most likely thats not my case. also, chet, why wont some classes let you run spacers and what have you heard bad about them? just aksing to know why. i appreciate everyones input so far. thanks guys!
because spacers a cause wheels to fall off when at the track...
I think c-kwick had a fun story about his friend losing a wheel like that(I've seen it happen once too). You will even notice ccsteve tells you to check the torque and whatnot on anything using spacers...during a road race, can you really re-check that torque every 20 minutes? not likely. I dont wnat something on mine, or anyones project car I help outfit, that can cause failure, even if installed properly, and spacers have the horrible tendency to do exactly that.
does excess hub/bearing wear, vibrations, and added weight and unreliability sound like a good thing to do, just because you didn't get the proper offset wheel for your car?
I dont think so. do it once, do it right.-chetThings that possibly have reliability issues and can cause dammage to other cars are generally banned at the track, like centercaps on wheels that dont have a locking pin... and why they require fluid catch cans to avoid spills, etc...
golden rule: if a F-1, GT3, GTP, lemans, IMSA or other race teams dont use them...there's a reason.
I think c-kwick had a fun story about his friend losing a wheel like that(I've seen it happen once too). You will even notice ccsteve tells you to check the torque and whatnot on anything using spacers...during a road race, can you really re-check that torque every 20 minutes? not likely. I dont wnat something on mine, or anyones project car I help outfit, that can cause failure, even if installed properly, and spacers have the horrible tendency to do exactly that.
does excess hub/bearing wear, vibrations, and added weight and unreliability sound like a good thing to do, just because you didn't get the proper offset wheel for your car?
I dont think so. do it once, do it right.-chetThings that possibly have reliability issues and can cause dammage to other cars are generally banned at the track, like centercaps on wheels that dont have a locking pin... and why they require fluid catch cans to avoid spills, etc...
golden rule: if a F-1, GT3, GTP, lemans, IMSA or other race teams dont use them...there's a reason.
exar
all those race teams have custom bodies and twin a arm double wishbown center mount control arm fully custom hyper engineered suspensions
they dont need them
i ran bolt on type spacers for over a year like the ones from http://www.wheelspacers.com and had zero problems, just retorque them every now and then.
how about this
dually trucks pull 10,000lb loads and ahve spacers...theres a reason..disbursed load ont he hub face because of two seat surfaces
most stuff in sanctioning bodies like that is mainly for everyones safety in that what if joe blow forgets to check the torque on the spacer and at 180mph+ a wheel comes off because the spacer unseats itself.
if you do something right, you shouldnt worry about it.
all those race teams have custom bodies and twin a arm double wishbown center mount control arm fully custom hyper engineered suspensions
they dont need them
i ran bolt on type spacers for over a year like the ones from http://www.wheelspacers.com and had zero problems, just retorque them every now and then.
how about this
dually trucks pull 10,000lb loads and ahve spacers...theres a reason..disbursed load ont he hub face because of two seat surfaces
most stuff in sanctioning bodies like that is mainly for everyones safety in that what if joe blow forgets to check the torque on the spacer and at 180mph+ a wheel comes off because the spacer unseats itself.
if you do something right, you shouldnt worry about it.
every world challenge corvette has a hub extension spacer (we built the majority of them), every CTS-V through all of GM's testing, ran a spacer (we built the wheels and spacers on their prototype cars all throughout testing, including other V model cars), every grand am cup mustang from 97-00 ran .25" spacers (we built the majority of their wheels as well). Every GM F-body in the mid 80s had 5mm thick spacers in the rear.If the following facts havent settled this conversation I'll offer you the following;EVERY porsche 930 turbo from 1977-1985 (or somewhere in the mid 80s) came with a 1" thick spacer. Feel free to insult a Porsche engineer if you want to look ignorant.I'd like everyone reading this post to consider the facts. You have a couple people stating things based on what they have NO personal experience with and what they are told by other people. Feel free to call up GMs engineers and tell them you know more than them, because their car is hundreds of thousands of dollars, and I dont think they would be using our spacers and wheels if we didn't know what we were talking about. Im done with this thread because some people are too thick headed to accept something other than whats already been drilled into their brain.
Also, you cant get a bolt on spacer in 8mm, its too thin! A bolt on spacer is also made out of steel, take your pick on what you want on your unsprung weight, steel or aluminum.
Also, you cant get a bolt on spacer in 8mm, its too thin! A bolt on spacer is also made out of steel, take your pick on what you want on your unsprung weight, steel or aluminum.
"if you do something right, you shouldnt worry about it."
exactly. his is why I dont reccomend spacers. H+R spacers(the ones with thier own hub seat/bore, ahcnor studs, etc) are the only spacers I find even close to appropriate. My view may be extreeme, but its what i've come to given what i have seen and heard, spacers are not a good thing, they seem like a band-aide.
ccsteve: I may be thick headed, to be sure, and its fine that you build spacers and whatnot for a living, I dont reccomend them, chris may had an issue with spacers, and I rearely see any spacers worth a damn(excepting the ones like the H&R stated above). and that wont cause problems. I have had personal experience with spacers, more than a few cars that have come in and out of my shop have had spacers on them do a few things-vibe problems-come loose/ruin a stud-cause a 'catastrpohic failure' (once with a wheel off, and yes it was torqued and retorqued)
so yes, it IS my personal experience, and I appreciate your input in this thread.
also, daniel, to your point..there's a alrge difference between cars engineered to use spacers(the dualie example) and throwing a spacer on a vehicle NOT engineered to use them
anyways, ccsteve, hopefully you'll stick around, you're a knowledgebable guy, and I'm sure you have a lot of information to share, just like myself, c-kwick, dori-dori, smithSR, Grant, and many others.
-chet
exactly. his is why I dont reccomend spacers. H+R spacers(the ones with thier own hub seat/bore, ahcnor studs, etc) are the only spacers I find even close to appropriate. My view may be extreeme, but its what i've come to given what i have seen and heard, spacers are not a good thing, they seem like a band-aide.
ccsteve: I may be thick headed, to be sure, and its fine that you build spacers and whatnot for a living, I dont reccomend them, chris may had an issue with spacers, and I rearely see any spacers worth a damn(excepting the ones like the H&R stated above). and that wont cause problems. I have had personal experience with spacers, more than a few cars that have come in and out of my shop have had spacers on them do a few things-vibe problems-come loose/ruin a stud-cause a 'catastrpohic failure' (once with a wheel off, and yes it was torqued and retorqued)
so yes, it IS my personal experience, and I appreciate your input in this thread.
also, daniel, to your point..there's a alrge difference between cars engineered to use spacers(the dualie example) and throwing a spacer on a vehicle NOT engineered to use them
anyways, ccsteve, hopefully you'll stick around, you're a knowledgebable guy, and I'm sure you have a lot of information to share, just like myself, c-kwick, dori-dori, smithSR, Grant, and many others.
-chet
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Nismo_Freak
- Posts: 10314
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I've read through the whole thread and I will say this.
The BEST setup is one where the wheel itself has the correct offset and width to as not require a spacer.
If you had to get a spacer then a hubcentric spacer w/ lugs would be best.
I do not drive a dually crew cab diesel, I do not drive a Corvette cup challenge car. I daily drive a Nissan 240SX.
Telling some kid to put spacers on his car and then buy wheels that do not have the correct fitment is incorrect. A Corvette challenge cup car under goes 500-1000 miles per race, has a crew of mechanics, changes out wheels/tires midrace on a constant basis, and is subjected to a smooth constant track surface, did I mention on board telemetry? The average 240 owner has a 100,000+ mile 240, changes tires once every 20,000+ miles, hits curbs, potholes, and god knows what, and rarely checks wheel torque until a vibration is felt, does not have a pit crew, and also does not have the money to fix the damage caused when a wheel comes off, nor the safety equipment. For a dually, compare the number of studs and the amount of torque the nuts are set to. I'm afraid I don't see many dually's out at the auto-x events either.
The BEST setup is one where the wheel itself has the correct offset and width to as not require a spacer.
If you had to get a spacer then a hubcentric spacer w/ lugs would be best.
I do not drive a dually crew cab diesel, I do not drive a Corvette cup challenge car. I daily drive a Nissan 240SX.
Telling some kid to put spacers on his car and then buy wheels that do not have the correct fitment is incorrect. A Corvette challenge cup car under goes 500-1000 miles per race, has a crew of mechanics, changes out wheels/tires midrace on a constant basis, and is subjected to a smooth constant track surface, did I mention on board telemetry? The average 240 owner has a 100,000+ mile 240, changes tires once every 20,000+ miles, hits curbs, potholes, and god knows what, and rarely checks wheel torque until a vibration is felt, does not have a pit crew, and also does not have the money to fix the damage caused when a wheel comes off, nor the safety equipment. For a dually, compare the number of studs and the amount of torque the nuts are set to. I'm afraid I don't see many dually's out at the auto-x events either.
Exar-Kun wrote:You will even notice ccsteve tells you to check the torque and whatnot on anything using spacers...during a road race, can you really re-check that torque every 20 minutes? not likely.
feel free to edit your post and dont put words in my mouth. At no point did I say that, please go back and edit this because you are clearly mistaking me for someone else. Thank you
its convenient you point out the example of a full blown race car as apposed to the street legal porsche eh? Do you think porsche owners check their torque often? How about an f-body camaro? Do you honestly think they dont see as many or more miles than a 240? Exactly my point, don't twist things around.
As far as the person saying they had customers with problems with spacers. I'll bet money the people you dealt with are examples of poor product. If you had a wheel bend from hitting a bump would you start yelling "wheels are horrible dont use them!", no, you wouldnt. So dont do it with spacers. You have customers who bring products to you, you dont have personal experience because you didnt put the spacer on, you didnt drive the car. Whos to say that customer didnt put the wheels on wrong (Im sure everyone knows atleast 1 idiot who doesnt know the proper way to change a wheel). Whos to say they didnt buy the spacers from some retard on an ebay auction. Chances are those spacers were universal and not hub centric either. I can also go into a slew about being hub centric but thats a whole different story. You cant pass judgement on somethign that has already happened because you cant prove it was the spacer. A lug bolt is made of forged metal, it is not going to strip from vibration (which a good spacer wont cause anyway). If it could it would have to be pretty weak, in which case I'd like to know what the nissan engineers were thinking when they put it on an automobile to spin thousands of times per minute with 3000lbs weighed down on it.
As far as the person saying they had customers with problems with spacers. I'll bet money the people you dealt with are examples of poor product. If you had a wheel bend from hitting a bump would you start yelling "wheels are horrible dont use them!", no, you wouldnt. So dont do it with spacers. You have customers who bring products to you, you dont have personal experience because you didnt put the spacer on, you didnt drive the car. Whos to say that customer didnt put the wheels on wrong (Im sure everyone knows atleast 1 idiot who doesnt know the proper way to change a wheel). Whos to say they didnt buy the spacers from some retard on an ebay auction. Chances are those spacers were universal and not hub centric either. I can also go into a slew about being hub centric but thats a whole different story. You cant pass judgement on somethign that has already happened because you cant prove it was the spacer. A lug bolt is made of forged metal, it is not going to strip from vibration (which a good spacer wont cause anyway). If it could it would have to be pretty weak, in which case I'd like to know what the nissan engineers were thinking when they put it on an automobile to spin thousands of times per minute with 3000lbs weighed down on it.
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Nismo_Freak
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- Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 10:42 pm
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My point was to outline some differences between your example and the target vehicle at hand.ccsteve wrote:its convenient you point out the example of a full blown race car as apposed to the street legal porsche eh? Do you think porsche owners check their torque often? How about an f-body camaro? Do you honestly think they dont see as many or more miles than a 240? Exactly my point, don't twist things around.
I'm not a big fan of spacers, that is my opinion, however notice I did not say "do not use spacers" I simply stated there is a better alternative at hand, and if you do not go that route then a proper spacer should be used.
" Chances are those spacers were universal and not hub centric either. "True, but most spacers you'll find ren't and its why I dont reccomend them....... this is why, in a situation that there is no alternative like new wheels, etc, I say "if you use spacers, get ones that are hub centric, and have their own lugs studs, otherwise, get NISMo or ARP studs to ensure prpopper thread engangement (H+R is my primary example)"
but then agian, I rarely find spacers to be the answer....-chet
but then agian, I rarely find spacers to be the answer....-chet
I'd like to let this die now. I personally think the overall point of this thread has been accomplished and that all parties have cleared up their full opinions on the matter. I'm glad to see that everyone went back and explained their opinions better, so anyone reading this wont get bad thoughts on spacers in general based on incomplete information.
Exar-Kun wrote:Ditto
thanks, hopefully I can provide some useful info among my flurry of pissed off replies and hot headedness.
I'm kinda disgruntled right now cuz I've been trying to beat the last level of Ninja Turtles on PS2 and I can't.... damnit.What were we originally talking about again?-
Nismo_Freak
- Posts: 10314
- Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 10:42 pm
- Car: 89 Nissan 240SX
ccsteve wrote:thanks, hopefully I can provide some useful info among my flurry of pissed off replies and hot headedness.
http://www.nissaninfiniticlub....66746
damn, alot has happened since ive been gone lol. i think some are just posting a bunch of unlogical bull **** (some of it). some are just telling the few stories theyve heard bad about spacers, but yet, no one knows exactly all the info behind the story so why even bring it up?
i also just wanted to point out one thing you said nismo. NO ONE in this thread is telling anyone to actually run spacers because someones wheels arent the correct size. carry on
Nismo_Freak wrote:I've read through the whole thread and I will say this.
The BEST setup is one where the wheel itself has the correct offset and width to as not require a spacer.
If you had to get a spacer then a hubcentric spacer w/ lugs would be best.
I do not drive a dually crew cab diesel, I do not drive a Corvette cup challenge car. I daily drive a Nissan 240SX.
Telling some kid to put spacers on his car and then buy wheels that do not have the correct fitment is incorrect. A Corvette challenge cup car under goes 500-1000 miles per race, has a crew of mechanics, changes out wheels/tires midrace on a constant basis, and is subjected to a smooth constant track surface, did I mention on board telemetry? The average 240 owner has a 100,000+ mile 240, changes tires once every 20,000+ miles, hits curbs, potholes, and god knows what, and rarely checks wheel torque until a vibration is felt, does not have a pit crew, and also does not have the money to fix the damage caused when a wheel comes off, nor the safety equipment. For a dually, compare the number of studs and the amount of torque the nuts are set to. I'm afraid I don't see many dually's out at the auto-x events either.
i also just wanted to point out one thing you said nismo. NO ONE in this thread is telling anyone to actually run spacers because someones wheels arent the correct size. carry on
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Nismo_Freak
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- Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 10:42 pm
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If everyone's wheels were the correct size, you wouldn't need threads like this.j-z wrote:damn, alot has happened since ive been gone lol. i think some are just posting a bunch of unlogical bull **** (some of it). some are just telling the few stories theyve heard bad about spacers, but yet, no one knows exactly all the info behind the story so why even bring it up?
i also just wanted to point out one thing you said nismo. NO ONE in this thread is telling anyone to actually run spacers because someones wheels arent the correct size. carry on
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phatpat240
- Posts: 226
- Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:50 pm
Not to whore on someone else's post but I had a question about wheel spacers.I have a set of 17" rota subzero's and I tried to install some z32 26mm calipers.Well the wheels touch the calipers and I need about an extra 1/4" to clear.I like the wheels and I really don't want to get rid of them.So which would be better.Get some longer nismo studs and a washer type spacer,or a use the bolt on type from wheelspacer.com? Thanks guys
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Nismo_Freak
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- Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 10:42 pm
- Car: 89 Nissan 240SX
Don't take this as anything but a suggestion.phatpat240 wrote:Not to whore on someone else's post but I had a question about wheel spacers.I have a set of 17" rota subzero's and I tried to install some z32 26mm calipers.Well the wheels touch the calipers and I need about an extra 1/4" to clear.I like the wheels and I really don't want to get rid of them.So which would be better.Get some longer nismo studs and a washer type spacer,or a use the bolt on type from wheelspacer.com? Thanks guys
I would look towards another wheel. The Rota Subzero is not allowed to be used in SCCA sponsored Auto-X's in Houston because they had one shatter on course. A couple people looked into it and found it wasn't the only instance of that particular wheel having structural problems.
Just looking out for ya.
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phatpat240
- Posts: 226
- Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:50 pm
Yeah I'm saving for another set of wheels.I'm just rolling the subs until I have enough money for a set of volk GT-C's. Nismo freak- what should I look for when I order new wheels? I mean what offset and backspacing will I need for them to clear the z32 calipers? Can I roll a 17x8 or 17x9 all the way around w/o having to roll the fenders? I have no plans to use coilovers.I just want something with a nice size dish and clear the z-brakes. Thanks for the response
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Nismo_Freak
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- Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 10:42 pm
- Car: 89 Nissan 240SX