Being a black man and coming from the hood it would surprise some that I stand against affirmative action. I think it's a blatant slap in the face to minorities. Proponents of affirmative action claim the system grants students from impoverished areas better access to higher education, I say nay!
In the state of Michigan, minority students with scoring 1000 on their SAT are on equal footing as white students scoring 1200. Using a sports analogy, that's comparable to someone spotting me a touchdown AND a field goal on account of academic commiseration. In accordance with my earlier proclamation of "equality of opportunity" rewards should be based on merit and no be tainted by race. That said, with an SAT score of 1580 (first try too) there's no correlation between background and aptitude. The high school I went to was bursting at the seams - some classes had in excess of 45 students. I feel sometimes my brothers fall into complacency and use the blame game to account for their failures. Complacency is not okay! We're better than that! We deserve better than crawl through life in mediocrity!
One needs to look no further than the burgeoning asian population in the state of Massachusetts. A recent test found the children of first generation asian immigrants scored just as high as caucasian counterparts on MCAS, ACT and SAT tests in the state of Massachusetts with only a very marginal discrepancy. Affirmative action is just another system that disparages the black man once again. I ain't no beggar, so don't treat me like one!
Yes or no to affirmative action?
-
Rockenreno
- Posts: 2891
- Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2003 5:48 pm
- Car: 1997 BMW M3
- Contact:
I completely agree. I think that jobs and college acceptance should be based solely on merit. Then again I didn't get into my first choice of colleges because I am white and they had to fill their minority quota, so I am a little jaded. I have no problem with a person of any race or sex working with me or getting a job above me based on merit. I just think that affirmative action separates the races even further, and in some cases like you mentioned, allows for minorities to use race as an excuse. It would be much easier if everyone was transparent or something, so there was no skin color.
-
Nismo_Freak
- Posts: 10314
- Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 10:42 pm
- Car: 89 Nissan 240SX
I beat you in 7th Nismo_Freak (1050) 
Although I kinda slept through highschool and only took the SAT's once for a 1240 after my Sophmore year. Anyway, beside the point...I too disagree with affirmative action, I dont even think we should put what race we are on applications for anything. It doesn't matter, if you can do the job, make the grades, whatever then you deserve to get into college, get the good job, etc. Anybody is capable of excelling if they want too.
Although I kinda slept through highschool and only took the SAT's once for a 1240 after my Sophmore year. Anyway, beside the point...I too disagree with affirmative action, I dont even think we should put what race we are on applications for anything. It doesn't matter, if you can do the job, make the grades, whatever then you deserve to get into college, get the good job, etc. Anybody is capable of excelling if they want too.Right on brothers! Excuses are just justifications for failing. Failing isn't in my vocabulary.
I spent my elementary years in Brooklyn before moving to Brockton, Roxbury and then Mattapan. The latter three accounting for the bottom-rung of the education system in Massachusetts. Growing up on the rough side of the tracks motivated me even more to get out the hood. I do have music to thank for that though, instead of joining gangs or indulging in other ruffneck flimflam I was a busboy at my pa's Jazz club. Now I'm a vp of primarily jazz and blues record label, go figure.
I spent my elementary years in Brooklyn before moving to Brockton, Roxbury and then Mattapan. The latter three accounting for the bottom-rung of the education system in Massachusetts. Growing up on the rough side of the tracks motivated me even more to get out the hood. I do have music to thank for that though, instead of joining gangs or indulging in other ruffneck flimflam I was a busboy at my pa's Jazz club. Now I'm a vp of primarily jazz and blues record label, go figure.
-
Cyberkreig
- Posts: 3048
- Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2002 4:40 pm
- Car: 1993 Nissan 240SX SR
- Contact:
-
lessthanjakejohn
- Posts: 4105
- Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2002 6:39 am
"The basic problem is that a racist past cannot be undone through more racism. Race-conscious programs betray Martin Luther King's dream of a color-blind community, and the heightened racial sensitivity they cause is a source of acrimony and tension instead of healing."
http://www.stanfordalumni.org/....html
http://www.stanfordalumni.org/....html
to go w/ the flow, 1030 in 7th garde and 1530 in 11th. ^^ Came in 95 too heh when I was 10.
I totally agree, I have to say it is REALLY unfair. A friend of my from 2 years ago happens to have Hispanic roots, this person is hardly a good student, and this person messed around mostly in school and as you can imagine this person's SATs weren't too high (I think he/she got 1100 something but I can't really remember)... he/she got accepeted into a certain university in durham NC which has the mascot of a blue devil, while 1100s aren't all that bad compared to the national average, it was hardly good enough to get he/she into *insert your guess of college name*, while I scored 1500+ and had 4.30 ish GPA thrhoughout high school and I got rejected! The only difference between he/she and I was the fact that he/she had "hispanic" as ethnic group and I had "asian pacific islander" as my ethnic group.... and what makes it even worse is that his/her first language is English! While I moved to the US w/ no prior knowledge of the language in 95... hardly seems fair. The only thing I can agree with Bush is about this stand against AA*cringe
I totally agree, I have to say it is REALLY unfair. A friend of my from 2 years ago happens to have Hispanic roots, this person is hardly a good student, and this person messed around mostly in school and as you can imagine this person's SATs weren't too high (I think he/she got 1100 something but I can't really remember)... he/she got accepeted into a certain university in durham NC which has the mascot of a blue devil, while 1100s aren't all that bad compared to the national average, it was hardly good enough to get he/she into *insert your guess of college name*, while I scored 1500+ and had 4.30 ish GPA thrhoughout high school and I got rejected! The only difference between he/she and I was the fact that he/she had "hispanic" as ethnic group and I had "asian pacific islander" as my ethnic group.... and what makes it even worse is that his/her first language is English! While I moved to the US w/ no prior knowledge of the language in 95... hardly seems fair. The only thing I can agree with Bush is about this stand against AA*cringe
The mecca of affirmative action is to HELP minorities but the system backfires. Asians who qualify for Ivy League schools at a disproportionately high rate, get stiffed by the system. Kim, the sound engineer at our recording studio got a perfect score on his SAT (yes it IS possible), a perennial member of MENSA since the age of 8 (143 IQ) and got a 4.5GPA in high school didn't make the cut to Amherst College. Granted it is the most selective college in the country but to reject someone of that caliber is just ludicrous.
-
Nismo_Freak
- Posts: 10314
- Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 10:42 pm
- Car: 89 Nissan 240SX
Affirmative action is too little too late. The time and energy needs to be spent leveling the playing field in the communities and grade school education.
You are a shining example that everyone can overcome adversity and achieve greatness. You should do all you can to help lead others from a similar background towards a better path. Living by example is the best way to show and prove, as opposed to just telling someone something.
I agree that there is no correlation between background and aptitude, but a harsh environment is not conducive to healthy mental and social growth. It's very easy to get caught up in the pitfalls of the ghetto when there are educational system problems, tremoundous peer pressure, weak family structures, and empty stomachs.
You are a shining example that everyone can overcome adversity and achieve greatness. You should do all you can to help lead others from a similar background towards a better path. Living by example is the best way to show and prove, as opposed to just telling someone something.
I agree that there is no correlation between background and aptitude, but a harsh environment is not conducive to healthy mental and social growth. It's very easy to get caught up in the pitfalls of the ghetto when there are educational system problems, tremoundous peer pressure, weak family structures, and empty stomachs.
-
CaptainHenreh
- Posts: 250
- Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2003 10:48 am
- Contact:
-
[Zero-S]
- Posts: 5295
- Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2003 10:56 am
- Car: Tell me whats wrong with this picture. 3 240's, only one runs.
I slept through most of highschool and was halfway awake for my SATs so 1180. Eh not the best, but I really didn't give a f***.
I vote no on affirmative action, I really take it as a slap in the face, like the government saying oh minorities can't measure up so here we'll give them a handout. Sure heres a free ticket to an all expense paid college. No thanks.
Basically what I'm saying is that if I really want something I'll be damned if I haven't put out 110% of my effort to get it. Nothing in this life is ever truley free (affirmative action just leads to complacency in my eyes, and I am part of the minority).
I vote no on affirmative action, I really take it as a slap in the face, like the government saying oh minorities can't measure up so here we'll give them a handout. Sure heres a free ticket to an all expense paid college. No thanks.
Basically what I'm saying is that if I really want something I'll be damned if I haven't put out 110% of my effort to get it. Nothing in this life is ever truley free (affirmative action just leads to complacency in my eyes, and I am part of the minority).
-
skydragoness
- Posts: 9394
- Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 6:49 am
- Car: 03' 350z Touring 6spd
92' 240sx 60k survivor :) - Location: North DFW, TEJAS
- Contact:
as far as getting into colleges go, it should be based on merit--i agree. i always, ALWAYS hated the section on tests that asked for your race. i always put in 'other' (half dominican/half caucasian) because it annoyed me so much. i didn't find it relevant to the task at hand. how i do on a test should be based on my score, and grades from prev. semesters--not my race. people who display merit academically, and display the desire to learn should be helped financially, to meet their goals--if that is the case. but it should'nt be because a college is trying to meet their minority ''quota"
-
lessthanjakejohn
- Posts: 4105
- Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2002 6:39 am
-
Rockenreno
- Posts: 2891
- Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2003 5:48 pm
- Car: 1997 BMW M3
- Contact:
-
Mr1der
- Posts: 36020
- Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:35 am
- Car: It's still not a Nissan...
- Location: Lebanon TN
success is like riding a bull, you gotta spur that sumbiatch in the balls and keep on ridin till the clock stops and not get your *** thrown, if you do, find another bull and keep getting thrown until you beat that bull.
If you want success, get yo *** on the bull, me helping you on with a ladder ain't gonna keep you planted on that back any longer.
That's my 2 cents cow pokes.
If you want success, get yo *** on the bull, me helping you on with a ladder ain't gonna keep you planted on that back any longer.
That's my 2 cents cow pokes.
-
C-Kwik
- Moderator
- Posts: 8070
- Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2002 9:28 pm
- Car: 2013 Chevy Volt, 1991 Honda CRX DX
jacob360 wrote:Affirmative action is too little too late. The time and energy needs to be spent leveling the playing field in the communities and grade school education.
You are a shining example that everyone can overcome adversity and achieve greatness. You should do all you can to help lead others from a similar background towards a better path. Living by example is the best way to show and prove, as opposed to just telling someone something.
I agree that there is no correlation between background and aptitude, but a harsh environment is not conducive to healthy mental and social growth. It's very easy to get caught up in the pitfalls of the ghetto when there are educational system problems, tremoundous peer pressure, weak family structures, and empty stomachs.
A agree quite a bit with this. Those who have not been in or regularly seen the education level in many of the less wealthy areas have much less opportunity to succeed. Where as the public schools in wealthy areas have a level of education that would rival many private schools.
So I stand as a yes and no. Yes I think it is necessary to an extent to try and equalize society more. While there will always be the rich and always be the poor, currently certain minorities tend to be the poor while others tend to be the rich. So mch racism and hate can stem from these difference. It would be nice to see that 'if' we are to judge a class of people, that it isn't because of race.
And no I don't think it should be handouts. But the reality is if it went unchecked, schools would look to try and admit only those that they think will help the school to make it more prestigious and perhaps bring in more money. And then we would end up with a system much more like the public schools(K-12) we have now since the schools that arent' as good would end up with the "leftovers".
Personally, I think it starts with the parents. But it seems many of them have failed too. There is just no easy solution to this problem. And the solution is definitely much larger than affirmative action itself.
C-Kwik wrote:A agree quite a bit with this. Those who have not been in or regularly seen the education level in many of the less wealthy areas have much less opportunity to succeed. Where as the public schools in wealthy areas have a level of education that would rival many private schools.
So I stand as a yes and no. Yes I think it is necessary to an extent to try and equalize society more. While there will always be the rich and always be the poor, currently certain minorities tend to be the poor while others tend to be the rich. So mch racism and hate can stem from these difference. It would be nice to see that 'if' we are to judge a class of people, that it isn't because of race.
And no I don't think it should be handouts. But the reality is if it went unchecked, schools would look to try and admit only those that they think will help the school to make it more prestigious and perhaps bring in more money. And then we would end up with a system much more like the public schools(K-12) we have now since the schools that arent' as good would end up with the "leftovers".
Personally, I think it starts with the parents. But it seems many of them have failed too. There is just no easy solution to this problem. And the solution is definitely much larger than affirmative action itself.
I think that particular problem stems from the way the tax dollars are spent... see in a wealthy area you have more money flowing into the educational system than you do in inner city poor areas. I would not be so quick to blame the parents because the parents had the same education that the children did, so spread the educational money out better to achieve better education all around and eventually the "bad parents" will be gone so to speak and all will help to smooth out, but unfortunately wealthier people are usually (and i say usually) unwilling to share their advantage and/or wealth for the sake of better education because with that..... they may sacrifice their advantageous education in their area.
-
C-Kwik
- Moderator
- Posts: 8070
- Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2002 9:28 pm
- Car: 2013 Chevy Volt, 1991 Honda CRX DX
I agree about the money going into schools. And to compound the issue, most "ghetto" schools have teachers who are either poor teachers, or relatively new in their careers. Those schools just can't pay the salary or provide a good atmosphere to draw in the better teachers. I can only blame republicans for this crap. =P
As far as parents, yes, that's what I meant by the parents failing too. But then if it was up to me, people would have to qualify to be a parent before they are allowed to have kids. While I would hate to strip away the joys of parenthood, too few understand the responsibilties. And it would have very little to do with wealth. Rich people can be bad parents too. And in some cases worse since they may be more ignorant about the future well being of their children. But I'm getting way off topic now.
As far as parents, yes, that's what I meant by the parents failing too. But then if it was up to me, people would have to qualify to be a parent before they are allowed to have kids. While I would hate to strip away the joys of parenthood, too few understand the responsibilties. And it would have very little to do with wealth. Rich people can be bad parents too. And in some cases worse since they may be more ignorant about the future well being of their children. But I'm getting way off topic now.
Who originally pushed for affirmative action? Was it the white man? Was it black public leaders? I seriously do not know the true history of this subject.
I do, however, know all too well about people saying they want equality, when in truth they are really looking to advance their brothers of the same skin color above other people. Why does NASCAR pay more money to Jesse Jackson than any other not-for-profit charity group? What is the purpose NAACP? What is a black college? If we are to be equal, how is it possible with such things? How does allowing a black female a position in the local fire department save my life if she scored lower on testing, and cannot carry me out of a burning building? Why would this person be given the job over a white applicant who scored higher on the written, oral, and physical test?
I think all "equality" programs are nothing more than people in power throwing minority groups a bone, in the hopes they feel appeased and shut up about the white man holding them down and oppressing them. But what is black leadership to do? Denounce affirmative action? Denounce a chance at equal employment for minorities? Is it really equal employment? A catch-22 is there ever was one...
I do, however, know all too well about people saying they want equality, when in truth they are really looking to advance their brothers of the same skin color above other people. Why does NASCAR pay more money to Jesse Jackson than any other not-for-profit charity group? What is the purpose NAACP? What is a black college? If we are to be equal, how is it possible with such things? How does allowing a black female a position in the local fire department save my life if she scored lower on testing, and cannot carry me out of a burning building? Why would this person be given the job over a white applicant who scored higher on the written, oral, and physical test?
I think all "equality" programs are nothing more than people in power throwing minority groups a bone, in the hopes they feel appeased and shut up about the white man holding them down and oppressing them. But what is black leadership to do? Denounce affirmative action? Denounce a chance at equal employment for minorities? Is it really equal employment? A catch-22 is there ever was one...
C-Kwik wrote:I agree about the money going into schools. And to compound the issue, most "ghetto" schools have teachers who are either poor teachers, or relatively new in their careers. Those schools just can't pay the salary or provide a good atmosphere to draw in the better teachers. I can only blame republicans for this crap. =P
As far as parents, yes, that's what I meant by the parents failing too. But then if it was up to me, people would have to qualify to be a parent before they are allowed to have kids. While I would hate to strip away the joys of parenthood, too few understand the responsibilties. And it would have very little to do with wealth. Rich people can be bad parents too. And in some cases worse since they may be more ignorant about the future well being of their children. But I'm getting way off topic now.
ya but come on man.... making parents qualify to have children :rolleyes that is sortof a nazi attitude and It is also not the freedom that america is built upon.