Yes, Barack Obama, We Are Bitter

[confedup]

We know who you’re talking about, Barack Obama, when you talk about Pennsylvania and the Midwest, about small towns where the jobs have left. We know who you’re talking about when you talk about those who “get bitter” and “cling to guns or religion.”

You’re talking about “those people.”

You’re talking about white people who have neither the family connections nor the racial credentials to gain entrance to the world that you inhabit. Many of the people you’re talking about are those whose parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents were immigrants from Central and Eastern Europe who came to these places to work in steel mills, coal mines, and factories. We know the code words.

You’re talking about people whose culture is little known. We have been pretty quiet. We never tried to impose our culture on everyone. We never insisted on putting pictures of ourselves in our native dress into schoolbooks or mandating that our stories and songs be part of the curriculums.

We tried to maintain our culture without government aid, by forming our own churches and groups, and building Polish, Ukrainian, and Slovenian halls.

We never wore buttons declaring “Slav Power” or grouped together for purposes of intimidation or violence.

The power we asked for was the power of the paycheck which we earned in factories, steel mills, coal mines, or by cleaning houses. Yet, we were taken aside and told that because of affirmative action it was no use trying to advance off the assembly line; we were told in “diversity workshops” that people of color had to be promoted over more qualified white people. I know this, Barack, because I have family members and friends who worked in factories.

We used to trudge in to work and change into work clothes, like my father did. He began by knowing only one word of English, “Okay,” which he found to be the most useful one in the language. When the boss man handed him a broom or pointed to a piece to be welded, he fairly leapt to the task. My uncles were injured in construction and mining accidents, and went back to work.

But what did we get for that, Barack? We paid cash for our houses and kept impeccable yards, yet saw the value of our homes plummet after marauding hoodlums came into our neighborhoods in riots that were celebrated by the intelligentsia in Manhattan penthouses, who saw such violence as justified expressions of outrage over past discrimination.

We went to public schools in those same neighborhoods only to be accosted for our skin color and the presumed “privilege” that teachers said we had. Rather than teach us what was good and beautiful about Western Civilization and the country to which our parents had fled, teachers gave us Marxist nonsense, if they bothered to teach at all. Our schoolmates saw the evening news, mimicked their elders by wearing “Black Power” buttons and felt justified in roughing the white kid who didn’t seem tough. Because we were “privileged”—despite washing our fathers’ sooty work clothes while our mothers went off to clean offices and houses in the suburbs—we were not eligible for scholarships, not even to the Catholic schools. Teachers never cut us any slack. Guidance counselors told us to be secretaries or work in the factory, despite our volunteering and demonstration of academic abilities. Our brothers, cousins, and uncles went off to fight in Vietnam, while those from your class took up arms against their campus administrators.

True, we had our problems, as all people do, with such things as alcoholism and family violence, but we handled those ourselves, and never blamed “society” or a history of oppression. Still, many of us did carry legacies from the old country, of hunger and persecution, of watching family members and villagers murdered by atheistic regimes. So we were grateful for the opportunity to work and buy our own little patches of the American Dream.

We were happy to use a welding torch, shovel, or broom to get them. We didn’t insist that we should all get college degrees. We didn’t have our documents translated for us or get bilingual instruction. If we didn’t know English we made sure our children did and we relied on them.

Your white friends in San Francisco, Barack, probably had cleaning women like my mother (and me when I accompanied her and then had my own cleaning jobs from age 12). As white people from a certain class and with certain connections, your donors knew that their futures would be secure because of their inheritances and the connections they could make in the media, politics, and business. In fact, it would benefit them in the world of “radical chic” to hang around those like you and support your policies. (Great opportunity to be photographed next to a black person!)

Your black friends there, like your wife, see no end to the amount that this country owes them because of what happened to their ancestors. It makes no difference that many of the whites in previous generations also had experienced persecution and hunger and worked in dangerous, dirty, and degrading jobs. Or that blacks and Native Americans were among the slave owners.

In fact, you and those wealthy donors sneer at white people who have had to do manual labor and who have paid for tuition at community colleges with the money earned that way, while our classmates received special scholarships and government grants—from our taxes.

You sneer at those like us who put our faith in God and not in those like you who would presume to know what’s good for us and tell us what to do with our money and our children, and leave us with no ability to defend ourselves.

Well, Barack, coming from your Ivy League world, you would not know much about us. You would not have learned that because we come from people who, rather than letting their communist benefactors redistribute the food, burned the crops in their little fields before they were forcibly “collectivized.” In Slovenia, they fought Tito’s Partisans from the woods and held mass at night when the Communists banned church services. They remember what it’s like to be hungry, ill, and living in little more than huts, while Marshall Tito and his communist cronies lived in villas. Now you live in a Chicago mansion and sneer at those like us who simply want to keep and defend our little three-bedroom ranches. You don’t know what it’s like to have family members die for the right to attend mass.

I know your liberal cronies, Barack; they make me check off my skin color on job applications and ask me during job interviews of how I teach multiculturalism, yet don’t know where Slovenia is on the world map. They couldn’t care less about my culture, nor about Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, or Lithuanian culture. Your supporters often feel free to mock my Slovenian heritage in letters and comments on the Internet when they disagree with me. I guess it’s like being called a “dumb Polack”—something that has never gained quite the opprobrium of other ethnic epithets.

See, Barack, we know the system: Some are more “equal” than others.

And we know how you really feel about the “proletariat.” We know this from our experience either directly or as an inheritance from our parents and grandparents. And that is why we came to America.

Addendum: Many of my non-European correspondents, like those who came from Cuba, agree—as their letters to me indicate.

Mary Grabar earned her Ph.D. in English from the University of Georgia and teaches in the Atlanta area. She is a Pushcart Prize-nominated poet and published fiction writer.

[rn79870]

I was involved inpublic speaking for some time and the very best advice I was given was this;

When your mouth gets dry, and your feet get wet, don't moisten one with the other.

Obama apparently moistened his mouth with his foot. It's hard to get it out once it's in there too.

Will he recover? Yes. Will he beat Hillary, I think so. Will he be president... that is a scary thought.

[audtatious]

Could not have said it better myself

[JimmyMethod]

We never wore buttons declaring “Slav Power” or grouped together for purposes of intimidation or violence.

The power we asked for was the power of the paycheck which we earned in factories, steel mills, coal mines, or by cleaning houses.

Yes, but when Slav's did the house cleaning, etc... they actually got paychecks, and weren't systematically enslaved.

For whites: Some had it hard, some had it rough, because of their social station.For blacks: (Almost) ALL had it (significantly) rough(er than the whites) because of their skin color.

Orange, meet the apple.

[audtatious]

What is the excuse now?

[JimmyMethod]

Excuse now for what?

[JimmyMethod]

Also, I like it how this article paints Obama supporters as wealthy whites...

Oh the irony.

[audtatious]

Excuse now for what?

For the breakdown of the black family? While it is happening in every segment it seems to be more relavant in the black communities.

Also, I like it how this article paints Obama supporters as wealthy whites...

Oh the irony.

He has plenty yet seems to have more purveyors of inequality in wanting whitey to make up for sins of the past.

[JimmyMethod]

For the breakdown of the black family? While it is happening in every segment it seems to be more relavant in the black communities.

He has plenty yet seems to have more purveyors of inequality in wanting whitey to make up for sins of the past.

Each generation doesn't get a 'reset'. You are raised by your parents (or not raised, as the case may be). The point is, there needs to be a total social overhaul to fix the problems present in our society. (In more than just the black communities, if you listen to him. Knee jerk conservatives just jump down his through and feel the need to focus on only the 'black' aspect of his social agenda.)

He has plenty yet seems to have more purveyors of inequality in wanting whitey to make up for sins of the past.

The sins of the past still shape our society today. It's completely preposturous to think that just because the cause is gone, and the reprocussions are still here that it can just be forgotten.

Also, HE is only a victim of the culture that was produced by slavery (not being a decendant of slaves). While socially, he may have been a victim of the racism latent in our society (as we all are to SOME extent) his family was not a victim of the arrestment of economic development that decendants of slaves faced/face.

[audtatious]

Each generation doesn't get a 'reset'. You are raised by your parents (or not raised, as the case may be). The point is, there needs to be a total social overhaul to fix the problems present in our society. (In more than just the black communities, if you listen to him. Knee jerk conservatives just jump down his through and feel the need to focus on only the 'black' aspect of his social agenda.)

The "people" in the article simply want to be left alone to work and prosper as they may without intervention or having to foot someone elses bills. They understand their past, accept it and work to get past it in making a home and community. You can't associate these communities with current suburban and city "white or non-black minority" that are sucking the system dry. There are a large number of non-conservatives who feel the same way and assuming these people are all conservative goes against the laws of percentages.

The sins of the past still shape our society today. It's completely preposturous to think that just because the cause is gone, and the reprocussions are still here that it can just be forgotten.

Who is it that needs to rise above it? Those who have ended the restraints or those who choose to cower behind the past as an excuse?

Also, HE is only a victim of the culture that was produced by slavery (not being a decendant of slaves). While socially, he may have been a victim of the racism latent in our society (as we all are to SOME extent) his family was not a victim of the arrestment of economic development that decendants of slaves faced/face.

He was raised in a wealthy white neighborhood and went to upscale schools. He and his wife made way over the national average from the get-go and he lives an elitist lifestyle. The only "street cred" he has is by joining Wrights church. People are starting to see him for what he really is instead of Mr Hope and Change.

[JimmyMethod]

The "people" in the article simply want to be left alone to work and prosper as they may without intervention or having to foot someone elses bills.

Because they NEVER were helped out by 'someone else footing the bills'... like say...public education, or subsidized farming which allowed for affordable food, or subsidized college education (why public colleges are less than half as expensive than private ones).

People can claim they 'did it all themselves' but in reality, they didn't. Now that it's their turn to feed the public coffers, they turn into greedy little bastards that listened to one too many Reagan speaches about how 'it's your money' while completely forgetting that the country they're bashing for collecting taxes couldn't provide them a place to make ANY money if they didn't collect them, on TOP of the fact that they're getting a LOT from the taxes, but they're too short sighted to see that just because it isn't in cash, doesn't mean it's not more valuable.

He was raised in a wealthy white neighborhood and went to upscale schools. He and his wife made way over the national average from the get-go and he lives an elitist lifestyle.

He's never claimed to have been finacially disadvantaged ever. As far as the 'elitist lifestyle'... are you serious? He could have been a corperate lawyer and made tens millions a year. He was president of the Harvard Law Review, and graduated magna cum laude from the top law school in the country. Instead he did civil advocacy and made two or three orders of magnitude less than that because he wanted to work for social justice.

Also, if you think that just because you're not handicapped financially doesn't mean blacks don't have to live with racism (just look at this election. The press won't let it go 2 months after he addressed it, quite profoundly, actually, if you watch the whole 45 minute speach) you are kidding yourself.

[confedup]

Wow, such drama.

People pay local, state and federal taxes in order to pay their part. They then donate as they feel they can or want to. What other coffers should they be paying? If it's not their money then whos money is it?

He went into politics instead of turning into another lawyer, so what? There are a large number of people who do not agree with him nor his direction. Guess that makes them and everyone who questions what he says and who he hangs out with "just another racist".

[audtatious]

Because they NEVER were helped out by 'someone else footing the bills'... like say...public education, or subsidized farming which allowed for affordable food, or subsidized college education (why public colleges are less than half as expensive than private ones).

Everyone who pays into the system pays for public education. Some farm subsidies seem worthwhile in keeping farmers from dropping one crop and going to one which is more profittable. Subsidies that are sucked up by greedy businessmen or that allow people to sit around for years doing nothing are crap and the laws should change. I sure have no issues with reworking those subsidies.

People can claim they 'did it all themselves' but in reality, they didn't. Now that it's their turn to feed the public coffers, they turn into greedy little bastards that listened to one too many Reagan speaches about how 'it's your money' while completely forgetting that the country they're bashing for collecting taxes couldn't provide them a place to make ANY money if they didn't collect them, on TOP of the fact that they're getting a LOT from the taxes, but they're too short sighted to see that just because it isn't in cash, doesn't mean it's not more valuable.

Greedy for wanting to provide for their families first? What is wrong with wanting to be able to give more to your own families future? How is that greed when most people still pay their taxes and they still give to charities and others? Why should not these people who are being penalized not have a right to question the Gov't on BS policy and spending practices? Seems you feel giving billions to the UN for "global poor" is more important than helping our own people. If we don't question Obama and Clinton and McCain concerning what they plan to do during their presidency then who should?

He's never claimed to have been finacially disadvantaged ever. As far as the 'elitist lifestyle'... are you serious? He could have been a corperate lawyer and made tens millions a year. He was president of the Harvard Law Review, and graduated magna cum laude from the top law school in the country. Instead he did civil advocacy and made two or three orders of magnitude less than that because he wanted to work for social justice.

Yes, he went into civil advocacy. I personally want a President who will support all citizens instead of focusing on one segment. If he were the candidate for a "hand up" instead of a "hand out" I would support him. He isnt.

Also, if you think that just because you're not handicapped financially doesn't mean blacks don't have to live with racism (just look at this election. The press won't let it go 2 months after he addressed it, quite profoundly, actually, if you watch the whole 45 minute speach) you are kidding yourself.

Everyone has to live with racism and prejudices. There is no utopia. The world as a whole offers opportunity and it is up to the individual to choose the course they wish to steer. Obama's speech? Sure didn't tell me anything.

[JimmyMethod]

If it's not their money then whos money is it?

The government's. If the USA was run like a true capitalist society, the government would keep the majority of what people make, and only give people the bare minimum they will accept without leaving the country (i.e. even point on the S-D curves).

The government supplies the land, infrastructure and the safety for companies to produce a product. How is that different from a CEO providing the factory, the tools, and the job security for the average Joe Schmoe to work? The CEO is allowed to keep the majority of the capital the employee produces. He decides where the money goes. What parts of the company will invest in, etc. Why can't the government do the same thing?

Why do conservatives have no issue letting CEOs, who do very little work, keep vast amounts of 'your money' and do nothing with it other than buy a bigger house and buy their daughters new next-day-Benzs when they roll their Navigators, but have a serious issue with governments keeping a much smaller percentage of money, and actually doing something productive with it.

I wish employee's got a slip from their employer similar to a W-2 but instead how much money the government was taxing, it would show how much money the CEO was keeping for himself. You'd all be a lot less bitchy at the gov, and a lot more realistic about capitalism.

Both ends of the spectrum (capitalism and communism) only really work if the workers are kept stupid in terms of what they produce over what they get. The only difference is, it's easier to keep them stupid in capitalism.

[audtatious]

That's not a capitalistic society. It's a socialistic society. Gov't keeps the money because they know what is best for "the people".

[HashiriyaS14]

To the OP: By and large, I think that was a very intelligently-written post that really rings true. It pointed out a lot of what is wrong with the thought process of the liberal establishment. It shows how traditional American values of self-reliance and independence have been drowned out by new "values" of little to no actual worth.

The only thing I really take issue with is this:

You’re talking about white people who have neither the family connections nor the racial credentials to gain entrance to the world that you inhabit.

I DO still have faith in America and the American Dream and I am NOT willing to agree that success and prominence is something limited to only those who come from certain families or ethnic backgrounds. Hard work and the desire to better oneself still DOES trump all obstacles in this country and there are millions of people to serve as examples.

[JimmyMethod]

That's not a capitalistic society. It's a socialistic society. Gov't keeps the money because they know what is best for "the people".

Today you learn that extremes of any economic system emulate the 'other side'.

Extreme cap= extreme com.

Take a high school econ class, then come back and try again!

[audtatious]

Why do I even bother with you? Now I realize why most people on here take you as nothing but a know it all troll.

Go back to your alcohol.

[AZhitman]

Blather and crap.

I want MY "reparations". Hell, my ancestors were slaughtered, raped, forced from their homeland, gassed, beaten, and cut up alive.

The reality is this: I (and 90% of America) could give a rat's a$$ what happened to people 150 years ago. Everyone's got a history, but only the strong rise above their deficits.

Besides, the 'slavery' song and dance is so overplayed, it's sickening. The problem is, to correct this erroneous worldview is perceived almost universally as "racism".

Barack doesn't have the stones to lead a country. His skin tone is the LEAST of my concerns.

[AZhitman]

Why do conservatives have no issue letting CEOs, who do very little work, keep vast amounts of 'your money' and do nothing with it other than buy a bigger house and buy their daughters new next-day-Benzs when they roll their Navigators, but have a serious issue with governments keeping a much smaller percentage of money, and actually doing something productive with it.

I wish employee's got a slip from their employer similar to a W-2 but instead how much money the government was taxing, it would show how much money the CEO was keeping for himself. You'd all be a lot less bitchy at the gov, and a lot more realistic about capitalism.

I'm dumbfounded.

The SAME nincompoops who whine that "the government is a bunch of idiots" think that somehow the government can manage our money better than we can.

You can't have it both ways.

"Doing something productive" with it? Hmmm, who determines what is productive? Like funding the war? Lots of libbies take offense at that, it is still "productive"?

You can't have it both ways.

How did the CEO get to be the CEO? Ever think of that? How does he not "deserve" the check he gets? Because the poor workers work so damn hard to make him rich? Because he already has enough? Because he'll spend it frivolously?

Guess what? It's NONE of your business.

You wanna make Richard Branson-style money? Then do what Branson did.

Unions are made for people like this. Those who whine because their chunk of the pie is smaller are doomed to go to bed hungry.

[JimmyMethod]

Why do I even bother with you? Now I realize why most people on here take you as nothing but a know it all troll.

Flame on, Matt.

See the problem is... I actually know what I'm talking about. I come up with legit statistics. I set you up to walk into logical fallacies. You have, "Ain't no one gunna take MAI muny away! It's MINE! Cuz... Uh... It is!"

The SAME nincompoops who whine that "the government is a bunch of idiots" think that somehow the government can manage our money better than we can.

I certainly don't think that the government is 'a bunch of idiots'. And I KNOW they can manage money better than the average American (shall I go into the average American's high interest debt?).

Yes, the government can manage money better than most people, and that's not even including the fact that the government has much more clout than a single person. Basic econ: The more money you have, the more percent return you get. It's called leverage.

How did the CEO get to be the CEO? Ever think of that? How does he not "deserve" the check he gets? Because the poor workers work so damn hard to make him rich? Because he already has enough? Because he'll spend it frivolously?

Why yes. I know exactly how they got to be CEOs.

Hm... being personally related to a few, being family friends with another, and being casual aquantainces with a few (including one who was a fortune 500 CEO)... Not to mention I go to school with people attending the #1 school of business in the country, if not the world. I know for a fact they get paid WAY more for little education, work, etc. I'd love to Knight work in a shoe factory for, I don't know, a day, or . They didn't work 'harder' than anyone else. They just got lucky. I've watched it happen. Hell, I watch the future Fortune 500 CEOs every day in school. They screw around and don't do ****. That's why you can't get a seat in Dominick's (the bar across from the business school) from about 4pm to close any week day.

Oh, and No. I don't want to make Richard Branson money. I don't think anyone should. The world would be a much better place if CEOs salaries were capped at 1-2 mil and the money that would go to them went to improving the worker's salaries/benifits.

[AZhitman]

And that's why we'll never agree on this.

You're half my age, and speak as if you're more knowlegeable - What "statistics"? I see broad generalizations from a youthful pair of eyes, but let's set that aside, shall we?

Using your logic, the guy who put a roof on my house should make $2M a year, because he works 10x harder than his boss, the general contractor (who should thereby get $31K annually, about what the roofer makes).

You conveniently forget who accepts ALL the risk, who fronts ALL the money and capitol, and who built ALL the business.

Broad generalizations about CEO's should be set aside as well. Perhaps the ones you "know" are "lucky slackers", but the ones I know are hard-driving, tireless, and extremely motivated... they put in 12-16-hour days and all started "at the bottom".

"Capping" salaries is absurd. Worker salaries and benefits don't need improving. Don't like your salary? Get a better job. Don't like the conditions? Go elsewhere. Benefits not what you wanted? Manage your own.

Shareholders get reports that show CEO salaries. They have a say in matters. Where's the problem?

You never mentioned having an issue with your buddy the ball player making sick cash, as an unproven and untested entrant into the NFL.

I'd support a pay-to-perform clause for athletes, but again, unions (those worthless clans of hand-wringing crybabies) oppose any such action.

Smarter people than you have tried to "manage" the economy and failed.

Capitalism works. and it works well. The only ones who whine about it are the ones who can't (or won't) use it to their benefit.

[JimmyMethod]

In terms of the roofing example, I was refering to big business, not small.

I love the 'workers can just move elsewhere' concept and 'get a new job'. That very easy to say when you're middle class or above, but lower middle and lower class people don't have that luxury.

Shareholders do get reports that show CEO salaries. The problem is when CEOs get paid millions of dollars when their company goes under because of their miss management, then they get a bonus on top of it all.

As far as the athletes salaries are concerned, I have little issue with football players making millions of dollars, seeing as they are exchanging 50 years of wear and tear on their bodies in 10 for it. Now, 58 million? That's a bit much, but at least he's producing something for it. Wayne Huizenga has proven he has no leadership and can't hire the right people to make a good team (thank god for SM Ross, Michigan School of Business grad [now the Stephen M. Ross School of Business], I might add...) Wayne shouldn't make ANY money for his ****ty job with the Dolphins the last 15 years.

[Cold_Zero]

Yes, but when Slav's did the house cleaning, etc... they actually got paychecks, and weren't systematically enslaved.

For whites: Some had it hard, some had it rough, because of their social station.For blacks: (Almost) ALL had it (significantly) rough(er than the whites) because of their skin color.

Orange, meet the apple.

I am still waiting for my apology from the United States Government for throwing Germans, Italians and Japanese in interment camps during WWII and for the FBI investigating/harassing German Lutheran Synodical Leaders in Midwest Synods. What I also find interesting is that well after WWII, when the Italians and Japanese were released from the interment camps, the United States Government kept Germans in the camps. These people lost their homes, their businesses and most of the time were not able to go back to their hometowns because they were branded Nazi Sympathizers.

I know this isn't the same as the Native American treatment nor the Slavery of Blacks, but read the article Jimmy. Just because these Slav expatriates were not oppressed by the Government of the United States doesn't diminish their oppression. And yes, Slav and non Slavs in Totalitarian Communist countries have been systematically enslaved, tortured and starved to death in their own countries. One could argue that these genocides were on par with the Native American genocide and the enslavement of blacks. But yes, that is the Sacred Cow of American History. Don't touch Black Slavery, keep your hands off. Because that is the sole property of the Race Pimps.bud

[AZhitman]

1) In terms of the roofing example, I was refering to big business, not small.

2) I love the 'workers can just move elsewhere' concept and 'get a new job'. That very easy to say when you're middle class or above, but lower middle and lower class people don't have that luxury.

3) Shareholders do get reports that show CEO salaries. The problem is when CEOs get paid millions of dollars when their company goes under because of their miss management, then they get a bonus on top of it all.

4) As far as the athletes salaries are concerned, I have little issue with football players making millions of dollars, seeing as they are exchanging 50 years of wear and tear on their bodies in 10 for it. Now, 58 million? That's a bit much, but at least he's producing something for it.

1) OK, who draws that line? You? What's a "big business"? Let's hear your idea, because my "contractor" example might surprise you.

2) Interestingly, I come from a family that did just that. My dad was a HS dropout and now lives in a gated community and has no bills. Hard work and self-sacrifice, no handouts.

Maybe it's because he's White.

3) Overdramatized rare occurrence. Most wind up broke or bankrupt. If you don't like it, get on the Board of Directors.

4) "exchanging 50 years of wear and tear on their bodies in 10 for it"... Who's to say the CEO isn't shortening his lifespan significantly through late hours and high stress?

"That's a bit much, but at least he's producing something for it." Really? What doe she produce? Is he creating jobs? Generating economic stimulus?

Your theories are falling apart like wet toilet paper, my good friend. No more "picking and choosing" of rebuttals. Reply to all or none.

[AZhitman]

Don't touch Black Slavery, keep your hands off. Because that is the sole property of the Race Pimps.

If the TRUE stories of slavery were told, these kids would riot in the streets. Your History books are way off-base.

Slavery in America is NOT the exclusive domain of African-Americans, nor were they the predominant group affected.

Some would even say, slavery created some weird backhanded "opportunity" for their descendants.

I know of a TON of Mexican Nationals who'd gladly trade their freedom for a better life in America for their grandchildren.

Don't be fooled. It ain't all Harriet Tubman up in here.

[audtatious]

Flame on, Matt.

See the problem is... I actually know what I'm talking about. I come up with legit statistics. I set you up to walk into logical fallacies. You have, "Ain't no one gunna take MAI muny away! It's MINE! Cuz... Uh... It is!"

I sure havn't flamed anything. The only statistics you have posted anywhere is a BMI chart in another thread, the rest has been rhetoric or your interpretation. One of these days you will be out in the real world with a family, wondering how you are going to put your kids through college while also funding your retirement and being able to do things you want with what is left over. At that point you will wonder why the Gov't is taking 40-50-60% of your salary to pay for people who made wrong choices in life or simply want to suck off the teet of the Gov't.

I was a single parent of two kids. I busted my azz in order to support them and didn't ask anything of the Gov't. I pay my taxes and I donate to charities of my choice. I work anywhere from 40-80 hours a week to be able to invest in my retirement, pay my bills and do what I want with what I have left over. In your world, everything I have is not mine. In my world you are full of crap.

The above is a total waste of time to type out because it will be 15 years before you really start to see the truth.

[AZhitman]

Makes me wonder how many 20-somethings are still accepting $ from their parents in the form of car insurance, rent, room and board, laundry, utilities, tuition, etc...

They sure don't gripe and moan about that, especially if Mom and Dad keep forking it over.

[AZhitman]

Yes, the government can manage money better than most people, and that's not even including the fact that the government has much more clout than a single person. Basic econ: The more money you have, the more percent return you get. It's called leverage.

Selling one's liberty, independence, and self-sufficiency is indentured servitude (or slavery).

I'd rather be broke and free than comfortable and bound.

By the way, the government doesn't have more money than we do. I'm certainly not trillions of dollars in debt.

[90Q45blue]

This is tangentially related to this but here goes. Businesses who declare bankruptcy rarely, if ever, go under permanently. It's called Chapter 11 Bankruptcy: Reorganization. They either get bought by another company or they re-emerge from bankruptcy to continue operating. The number of CEOs that have truly run their business into the ground are few and far between.