Wrecked

[jroot]

Had to lockem up going 60 on a wet road in my SL. It slid terribly as the non abs brakes sucked ***. I hit a car and it totally cruched up the hood and tore the front bumper, broke the headlights and mangled part of the engine. I suffered minor injuries. Did my airbag deploy? NO. Should my car have been able to stop and avoid the accident based on how far back I was? YES. This is a warning to you all. I am a safe driver. This is my first accident in over 15 years. This cars brakes need to be recalled. The airbag is beyond me. I am going to send a letter to Nissan. It seems really ironic about the article on safety crashes. My car does not have the after November madifications. Should Nissan update my car? Hell Yes. Rant over.

[Althalus]

Maybe you shouldn't've been going 60 on a wet road..

[cireecnop1]

Sorry to hear that. Thanks for the warning! Now that the weather is getting worse we obviously need to be WAY more cautious.

Does this mean no more Versa since it did damage the engine?also just curious, did your windshield crack?

One last question, you gonna consider replacing it with another V?

[Acecool]

You need to pump your brakes very fast, so the hood does not come back up.. Once you learn that, you will be able to stop like 30% faster than ABS

[BenzTech Gone Versa]

damn sorry to hear that.i've Locked The Brakes Up A Few Times.......Flew Past A Yellow Light/Red.I Think Nissan Should RECALL ALL Non ABS VEH'S.

[SPFDRum]

Airbag deployment has nothing to do with how hard you "think" you hit something, or related to physical damage to your car.Air bag deployment is based on deceleration and G forces associated with that. Of course hitting something will decelerate you quicker.One type of sensor consists of a gold plated steel ball held in place by a magnet. The magnet has a know release force. When this is met, the ball will release and make contact with gold plated contacts, completing the circuit, deploying the airbag.What did people do BEFORE anti-lock brakes? Why should a car manufacturer recall a brake style because people don't know how to use them?

[Ever Victorious]

The V's brakes shouldn't be looked at because they don't have ABS. However, Nissan seriously needs to reconsider them because when they DON'T have ABS, they have an obscenely long stop time and have a tendancy to fishtail badly.

I've done numerous panic stops with my V. It is scary as hell, even in the dry. I don't ever want to have to do another panic stop in it, but I know I will have to at some point.

And to those who say "pump your brakes quickly"... Hey guess what! Most of us are humans, not robots.

Most of us will be paralyzed with fear and just dump on the brakes, not being able to move our legs.

The rest of us would not have TIME to pump the brakes "quickly" in a scenario where the car is not going to stop in time.

And 30%? Give me a break. People who test cars on the track for a living can't stop a non-ABS car more than about 15% faster than an ABS equipped car under the BEST of conditions. How do you expect an AVERAGE driver to stop 30% faster in BAD conditions?

I am sick and tired of all you ABS-hating jerkholes bagging on everyone else saying "you're not driving it right". This is about the least frigging constructive thing you can say, you're not going to be able to teach someone over the internet how to "drive their car right" and there are those of us who will ALWAYS drive better with ABS than without because it's how we learned to drive.

[tama48]

I wonder if 60 mph on wet pavement was a contributing factor? HMMMMMMMMMMM. NAW probably no ABS.

[xu_chen]

I don't mean to go off topic, and I will start a new thread if need be...But I was discussing the new Insurance Institute small car safety tests with a few friends today. As many of you know, Versa was the only small car to get top ratings in crash tests.Now, we looked at the tests and what they mean. They seem to measure the SURVIVABILITY of occupants when a crash occurs.Now, we were wondering, is there a measure out there that indicates how well a car is designed to help you stay out of a crash to begin with? It does not seem to me like Versa would score very high here, since ABS is not offered standard, the wheel is pretty thin, the steering is pretty vague... etc.Just wondering what everyone here thinks about this.

[Ever Victorious]

I agree that accident avoidance in this car is crappy.

[proxim2020]

Maybe you shouldn't've been going 60 on a wet road..

Those who have taken advanced driving courses in autos or motorcycles that involve wet conditions know that 60 mph on pavement isn't anything to worry about. Following distance is key in these situations. If you had said following distance, you may have had a valid point.

What did people do BEFORE anti-lock brakes?

The same thing jroot did. Every car behaves differently. With some cars, you would think they would need ABS because they behave so poorly in the panic situation. I'm starting to think the V is one of those cars.

I am sick and tired of all you ABS-hating jerkholes bagging on everyone else saying "you're not driving it right". This is about the least frigging constructive thing you can say, you're not going to be able to teach someone over the internet how to "drive their car right" and there are those of us who will ALWAYS drive better with ABS than without because it's how we learned to drive.

I agree with this part and the rest of EV's rant. Regardless to how much you hate ABS and how useless you think it may be, you can't argue with the fact that it does give you more control in a panic stop. Stopping distance is very debatable since ABS, depending on the situation, can increase or decrease stopping distance. Since there's a good chance that he was following too close, ABS may have been able to give him the control needed to steer clear of the lane.

It's not likely you'll have time to pump your brakes. You'll have to see and analyze that an accident is about to occur. You then have to begin to pump your brakes to bring down the speed from 60 to 0. Now we can hypothesize that jroot may have been following to close. In this situation, you would need to perform all these actions in less than 2 - 3 seconds at best. You would probably be able to get about 3-5 pumps before you slam in to the car. The ABS would be able to perform the same action, several times a second. Not only will it pump for you, but the system has the ability to see a skid as soon as it happens within milliseconds. A human may take a few hundredths at best. No human would ever be able to duplicate an ABS.

Roll Stability Control for SUV's will be the next great debate.

With the exceptions of jroots original comments I thought I would never need to use that. This thread should be about what Nissan could do to redesign the current system. Not yet another ABS debate.

[tama48]

In 2002 I leased a new Nissan Xterra WITH ABS I lost control on wet pavement about after six months of driving this vehicle. The SUV hit a curb broke the rear axle, shattered the rear rim and blew out the tire and almost flipped over. This vehicle had ABS and I certainly applied them. That vehicle had no weight in the rear. It was rear wheel drive and not a 4wd. It was terrible in snow. ice or any amount of rain. It was the ONLY vehicle I ever had ABS in and the only one to lose that amount of control in a drizzle at 40 mph. I couldn't wait to get out of that thing and when the lease was up I did. No regrets! I have had my versa since July with NO problems other than the dreaded TPMS.

[Legacy40k]

On wet road... you're tires determine your stopping distance more than your breaks. It doenst matter if your breaks lock up and your wheels don't turn if you're still sliding on the wet pavement.

[Ever Victorious]

In 2002 I leased a new Nissan Xterra WITH ABS I lost control on wet pavement about after six months of driving this vehicle. The SUV hit a curb broke the rear axle, shattered the rear rim and blew out the tire and almost flipped over. This vehicle had ABS and I certainly applied them. That vehicle had no weight in the rear. It was rear wheel drive and not a 4wd. It was terrible in snow. ice or any amount of rain. It was the ONLY vehicle I ever had ABS in and the only one to lose that amount of control in a drizzle at 40 mph. I couldn't wait to get out of that thing and when the lease was up I did. No regrets! I have had my versa since July with NO problems other than the dreaded TPMS.

Have you considered it may have been the dynamics of the truck and its tires, not the ABS, that caused your problem?

I have owned several ABS equipped cars and during panic stops I have always been able to maintain impeccable control. With the V, sans ABS, it's like trying to tame a horse that's just been shot in the arse point-blank with a wrist rocket.

But I agree with proxim, this should not be an abs vs. no abs debate.

jroot - truly sorry to hear about your accident. You said you suffered minor injuries, would you care to share what kind? Or you would you prefer to keep that to yourself?

[jroot]

Well it is looking to be around a 2-3 week repair of the V. I am also nervous because of course they have never worked on one of these before... I was a good 3-4 car links back when I locked em up. You know you really can't go below 60 on the highway, wet roads or not fellas. If you guys are so great with breaking that you think you could have avoided the accident, your dead wrong. The brakes on the car suck ***. They sucked on dry pavement as well. I have had another near miss before this inciddent and I remember thinking oh sh*t, These brakes are the worst of any car I have ever driven. If you think sliding out of control when applying the brakes at over 40mph is ok, than good luck to you. I commute 60 miles a day and I don't think this is a very safe car. I may sell it and get something else.

[Nolalove06]

In my little banged up thread...i mentioned in there that my non ABS didn't do ANYTHING...i slammed...and slid, on a DRY, BEAUTIFUL day...doing oh about...8-10 MPH!!!!!!!!!

They suckseriously

[kmil123]

Boys and girls............can we say CAUSE OF ACTION (Legally: "Reason to Sue"???)

[Nolalove06]

I'm not doing it alone...

[justmerging]

To all those who keep saying the brakes on the V suck, I will have to disagree. The actual braking system is overkill for this car. 11" front vented rotors are enough to haul a 300zx too a stop in a resonable distance, I don't think they would have a problem on our little 2700lb compact. The major limiting factor in the case of our cars is the tires. The brakes can't do their job if the tires can't hold on to the road. This is exactly what is happening. The brakes are just too powerful for the little economy tires that we are all rolling on. It is the same way with suspension. You could have 30 million dollar coilovers but on our stock tires they are going to suck. I bet if you put a better (possibly a little wider) tire these cars would stop on a dime and give you 8 cents change.

[marleyfan]

Boys and girls............can we say CAUSE OF ACTION (Legally: "Reason to Sue"???)

This is the reason that the population of lawyers in the US is higher than than entire population of most countries. Why is "law suit" the first think you think of?
Modified by marleyfan at 4:56 PM 12/21/2006

[BenDupre]

Xu_Chen,

I read that the IIHS cannot give Versa a TOP PICK because it does not have stability control. So they are looking out for accident avoidability.

Ben

[motoguy128]

I agree with "Justmerging". The stock tires are pretty crappy on this car. Tires make a huge difference. It one of the major reasons that SUV's have poor stopping distances. I think also, this car is a little heavy for the tire size. While smaller tires are good in snow. On wet and dry pavement, it would benefit from 205 width tires.

Overall, I don't think this car is any worse than the others in it's class if they had the same junk tires.

[Ever Victorious]

To all those who keep saying the brakes on the V suck, I will have to disagree. The actual braking system is overkill for this car. 11" front vented rotors are enough to haul a 300zx too a stop in a resonable distance, I don't think they would have a problem on our little 2700lb compact.

"You think"? Meaning you've never tried it? Go ahead, try it. You'll understand what we're talking about.

You're right about the front brakes being overkill for the car. It's the REAR brakes that suck, and also what causes the car to fishtail. Remember, your inertia does not rest ENTIRELY on your front wheels.

If it were simply a matter of "Crappy tires", then the car would not have the tendancy to consistently fishtail. But because your rear has so much more inertia than your front, you WILL fishtail. Every time. The ABS helps negate this, but can't completely neutralize it.

I agree with "Justmerging". The stock tires are pretty crappy on this car. Tires make a huge difference. It one of the major reasons that SUV's have poor stopping distances. I think also, this car is a little heavy for the tire size. While smaller tires are good in snow. On wet and dry pavement, it would benefit from 205 width tires.

Overall, I don't think this car is any worse than the others in it's class if they had the same junk tires.

Wrong again. The Kia Spectra is in the same IIHS class as the Versa. (Those who actually read the IIHS site, not just the AP articles, will note that while it was tested with minicars, it was classified as a small car due to the fact that it is so much larger).

I owned an '02 Spectra, brand new, which was equipped with equally crappy Hankook OE tires. It would always stop sure, straight, and reliable, and would ONLY fishtail or skid during heavy braking on curves in the wet.

The '02 Spectra was equipped with the same width and diameter of tire as the V, is of a very similar weight (in fact, the Spectra was actually a few pounds heavier), was also a front disc/rear drum setup without ABS.

No, I truly believe this is a case of bad brake design. I bet if you put a bias adjuster on it and sent more power to the rear brakes, it would at least stop fishtailing. Disc brakes would also help.

Wider tires would also help, but they would also create both more wind drag and more road drag (from the increased surface contact patch), so that would decrease economy.

Right about now I'm wishing I still had my old ADR type 29's with Proxes FZ 4's at 205 width to drop on the V and prove my point.

[justmerging]

There you are in fact wrong. I have had to "emergency brake" on many occassions. I autocross my versa, which I'm sure you are aware of the necessity for both brakes and tires. I did one session with the stock tires and immediately switched to a different set for autocross days (running 205/50 r 15 on 240sx alloys). I don't have a problem with unpredictable braking at the edge while I'm autocrossing. I do get the twitchy feeling while I'm running on my economy street tires(OE). I have done 2 events with the only changes being tires. The next one I will do with some other mods but that is neither here nor there. Again the fishtailing is due to the tires skidding, the versa loses all weight in the rear (which isn't much to begin with) under hard braking. This in turn unloads the rear of the vehicle making the tires ability to grip in the rear nearly non-existant. This weight transfer is what causes the rear end too lock up. Try emergency braking with 4 people in the car. I can almost gaurantee that the fishtailing will not be nearly as prominent or severe as with one person. I did experience this problem on my street tires until I got my eibach springs. The springs drastically reduced the dive under braking. The rear brakes are also adjustable but I don't advise doing it unless you know what you are doing. I will be messing with my brakes come next month's event if need be. I'm hoping I can get a tire off the ground around corners.

Disc brakes would reduce the amount of braking force in the rear but they would also wear faster and maintenance would be more costly. Also I think the economy difference between the stock tires and something a little bit better (not necessarily my azenis rt-615) would be minimal at best. I will, at my next fill up, will switch to my autocross tires and sport them for two or three tanks of gas and see if there is a difference in economy, but it's hard to compare apples to oranges. Especially with different rims and different tires sizes. But I will report my findings.

[tama48]

I agree 100%. If there is any inherent problems with the braking. It is NOT the brakes it is the insufficient tires for the vehicle. Nissan installs the cheapest legal tire they can to minimize cost. These tires are worthless. The breaking system in this vehicle is more than enough. Look at the tires.There is the problem. I had the same problem with my Nissan Xterra and replaced the tires.

[Ever Victorious]

I too have autocrossed my V on the street tires. Corner braking on the stock tires actually is far more predictable than straight-line braking.

Also, panic braking at low speeds (sub-40) isn't really bad, it's high-speed panic braking that is seriously crappy. And you would not experience that in autocross.

And with a full load of people, braking wasn't my problem with the V. It would just wander on the road. THAT wasn't fun. It was unpredictable, even at cruise on a straightaway.

On my last 2 autocross cars that I had sport tires for (Kumho Ecstas and Proxes FZ4's), I would often run all summer on my autocross tires. I would notice when I would switch over a change of 1 MPG lower when switching to sport tires, 1 MPG more when switching back to "winter" tires. I know it's not a lot, but it was measurable. Plus, with people already complaining about poor gas mileage, putting ALL V's on bigger tires would just make people complain more about it.

[Ever Victorious]

As a side note, I know there are a couple members whose Continentals failed completely, and they had to replace their tires. Anyone care to shed some light on their experience with their new tires?

[kc5f]

I grew up near Chicago, and every winter when it snowed, the first thing I would do was to go to an empty parking lot and practice stops, turns, acceleration and, of course, donuts! No ABS back then, so it was always good to get accustomed to how the cars handled in snow.

Keeping that in mind, wouldn't it be good to practice panic stops in good and bad conditions (with lots of room and no one nearby) so that we know what to expect?

I tried that this morning in fairly heavy rain on the open interstate from 70mph and again from 55mph. Maybe it's just being used to non-ABS cars after 800,000 miles of driving them, but the V handled quite well. When it started to lose traction, a quick pumping cured it, and it stayed straight.

I've got about 10,500 miles on mine since September, and have never yet had a problem with the braking when I most needed it.

[proxim2020]

I'd like to share my ABS experience. While on my 2500 mile journey to Canada, I had to use my ABS once in NY. The GPS was a little delayed with instructions and I almost missed a turn. There was no one around so I slammed on the brakes to try to make the turn at the last minute. The street was really rocky and the abs kicked in. I was able to slam on the brakes and turn at the same time without feeling a fishtail or like I was going to loose control. It felt like I was making a normal quick stop in a straight line. I did hear a very short slight screech at first. It performed very well and not once during the short incident, did I feel that I may loose control.

I also tried out the ABS in a more controlled environment. On my father in laws street, which is about .2 miles (which is all owned by him), I was able to get the V up to 60. I then slammed on the brakes and turned the wheel from side to side to try to see if I could get it to loose control like describe by others. The V stayed true to the course no matter where I threw it. Even though I was using ABS, the V still felt like the back end would fishtail at any moment. Better weight distribution towards the back may help out this feeling for those with ABS and actuality for those without.

BTW, I'm not a fool. I'm not going to wreck my car testing ABS. I didn't throw the car around enough to get wheels off the ground. The street is straight and surrounded by a flat grassy field on each side. So the worst thing that could happen is run off into the field.

[JuneBug]

I had ABS on the civic before I totaled it on a snowy road. The ABS did nothing to save me. I felt them go on as I realized I had no other choice but to brake and I still ended up completely losing control. I'm a good driver, and haven't been in an accident in a long time. Unfortunately I lost the car. Hence, the versa, in which I did not care whether or not it had ABS.....and now I'm starting to think I should invest in some new tires.