Won't start problem & ticking - Pls verify the problem for me, video available.

[golgo13]

Update: Made Valve adjustment, new videos available. T_

Update: 2 new videos ( in a reply) up from this morning and a reply to a possible IACV-ACC valve issue.

I tend to be verbose, so apologies ahead of time.

First my car is 1990 S13. It has only about 64500 miles on it. It has been mostly sitting in the driveway. It rarely gets driven except occasionally on weekends.

Out of the blue, I started to get a no start condition. I would hear the starter but it just would not turn over. Here is a video of the what experience

However, sometimes it would cold start, and in the immediate time frame, I'd be able to turn off and restart without exhibitng the no start condition. (warm condition?)

Some observations:The Fuel pump was making a very weird noise, on occasion, months prior to the problem, so over the July 4 weekend I replaced it with a new OEM pump that I was able to acquire. In fact, I just finished the install thanks to help from the nico forums. BUT, The problem did not go away and I did verify the pump is operational and priming. I also replaced the fuel filter.

Sometimes when it did turn over, it would sound & feel rough and the rpms struggled to reach 1000 mark to warm up. (fast idle?) This happened this morning when I had to move the car to allow roofers some room to work. I did NOT have to rev it up though.

I checked the ECU a few weekends ago and pulled code 55 (no problems).

Sometimes, I would be able to cold start without major issue for days, but if I drive it, the next day (or that night) I'd get a no start condition.

Do you think it be simple as a battery issue? or something fuel component related? other?

Now, the new issue. The car engine is now making a weird ticking noise once it starts. Here's the video.

As I rev up, the ticking also revs up. This is completely new condition.

-----

There are some tests which I need to perform but would like some verification before I go in the myriad of flow charts and try to locate all the various components. I am a complete neophyte in this area and can only do this on weekends so I wanted to run this by an experienced person so as to confirm/identify the problem(s). The no start condition and new ticking noise is really concerning me.

Modified by golgo13 at 11:30 AM 7/5/2006

Modified by golgo13 at 7:29 AM 7/6/2006

Modified by golgo13 at 8:31 AM 7/12/2006
Modified by golgo13 at 11:03 AM 7/12/2006

[audtatious]

Now THAT is a way to post up a "help me" thread! Very good!

From the starting problem standpoint, have you checked the voltage at the battery? Sounds like the battery is low and having problems turning over. 2nd would be the alternator may not be charging the battery properly (should have at least 13.5v at the batter when idle). Third issue could be the starter is sucking too much juice, thus draining the battery down.

The noise could be a lifter tapping or even a rod knocking. Have you check the oil recently?

[golgo13]

Here's an older video. Please note that this was taken before the new fuel pump and I have not experienced a rough start this bad...yet. I've only had the new pump installed a few days and am not even sure it was the problem to begin with. This mornings rough start was not this bad. Just an FYI.

The camera moves away from RPMs but you do get to see RPMS just sit at 400 and it appeared the car would die. You see that I rev it up but the RPMs sink back down to 400-500 territory before settling on it's own to 1100.

[golgo13]

Now THAT is a way to post up a "help me" thread! Very good!

From the starting problem standpoint, have you checked the voltage at the battery? Sounds like the battery is low and having problems turning over. 2nd would be the alternator may not be charging the battery properly (should have at least 13.5v at the batter when idle). Third issue could be the starter is sucking too much juice, thus draining the battery down.

The noise could be a lifter tapping or even a rod knocking. Have you check the oil recently?

Ok, I just went outside to start my car and argh..no start condition. I went turned once and I just knew it was a no start condition. I went off and then tried again and kept my key to the iginition spot as it struggled to get going. It finally did but very rough. My battery voltage was at 12.46 before start and 14.18 at idle. Also, the oil appears fine though it hasn't been changed in a while. I don't drive it often so.. I'm hoping to take advantage of this one extra day off to get a handle on this problem. I left my car idling right now..going to meaure the battery again. The ticking is there but not as prominent but your diagnosis of that makes sense.

Update: 14.01-14.12 Idle. I just leave you this, I had the hood up when I had a rough start and my engine shook like crazy but settled down soon after. I also re-evaluated the ticking and it's the same. So I guess it's not a battery issue but perhaps a starter issue?

NVM: I videod the engine, compared videos and this time the ticking is less.

Modified by golgo13 at 10:10 AM 7/5/2006
Modified by golgo13 at 10:14 AM 7/5/2006

[AZhitman]

WOW!

Great post - I'm going to get our techs in here to look at this thread...

[180fan]

the low idle, have you recently adjusted your iacv? if the screw is in too far, it chokes the engine out and could explain the low rpm. other thing i'd check out is pull the plug on the tps. only other thing i can think of is any wear or carbon buildup on the back of the distributor?

[lovemynx2000]

Not that I am an experienced mechanic or anything, but from personal experiences, and from what I heard in your video, maybe check your injectors. The noises sound similar to the ones I heard when I had a bad injector. Remove each connection from the injectors one at a time. if your idle doesnt change, then thats your problem. of course, if it doesnt start then this method isnt gonna help.

[golgo13]

the low idle, have you recently adjusted your iacv? if the screw is in too far, it chokes the engine out and could explain the low rpm. other thing i'd check out is pull the plug on the tps. only other thing i can think of is any wear or carbon buildup on the back of the distributor?

I didn't even know what IACV was until I looked it up so no I didn't touch it. Though I did find a technial bulletin (Reference Number NTB96-032, Dated April 17, 1996) It's a little above my head but it refers to hard to start and no start conditions and it goes into a rather involved process of using a CONSULT or tachometer and something about determining whether the IDLE needs adjustment and iginition timing light... Wow, I hope you can see from my neophyte eyes how all of this can be rather disconcerting.

Here's a video I took this morning. The audio is not great because I had to close the door due to the rain so you have to raise your audio but you can tell I have a no start condition and it just refuses to turn over. Actually, you kinda see it try to turn over for a second in the beginning the RPMS go up to 700 and then drop like a brick and the car dies. After you hear me sigh, I give it another try and keep at it as it struggles to finally turn over. This time, I intervene and rev up and it springs into 1100 RPM for warm up.



In the this next video, I decide to show you how the car can restart normally after you get her going. Again, sorry about the audio and light...bad weather day.

[golgo13]

Well, I guess I've stumped everyone. Since I came home from work early, I decided to take the car out for a spin. Again, it had some trouble starting but it did finally get going. I went out put about 5 gallons of gas, dropped off some items at church, and all together drove about 12 miles. It seemed to accelerate fine. During the outing, I had about 3 stops and each restart was perfect. However, once I got home and a few hours passed I got a really bad no start condition. It sounded just like the first video but just a little faster with regard to cycle as it tried to turn over. The condition is so bad that all I can do is wait and try again later.

Here's the video showing the worst of my situation:



Have a good weekend. Hopefully, the weather will let up a little down here. Anyone recommend a good mechanic or a good, honest and knowledgable dealership in Miami for my 240?
Modified by golgo13 at 6:09 PM 7/7/2006

[rogoman]

The problem with hard starting when the engine is cold may be due to a device mounted on the engine called an air regulator which is located on the passenger's side of the engine, near the back, below the intake manifold. When the engine is cold and idling, the air regulator allows additional air to flow to the engine thus maintaining a good idle or when trying to start a cold engine.

There's a good chance the air regulator is defective or the electricalconnections are bad.

The ticking sounds like hydraulic lifter noise. It could be due to low oil pressure. You can check the pressure very easily by installing a temporary mechanical oil pressure gauge. You would remove the oil sensor which is located next to the oil filter and install the mechanical oil pressure gauge in it's place; you may need to get an 1/8 BSPT to 1/8 NPT adapter to hook up the gauge. With the engine fully warmed up, the pressure should be as follows:idle - at least 11 psi3000 RPM - 60 to 70 psi

If the oil pump needs to be replaced, it's easy to do so on a '90 as it bolts on externally.

[golgo13]

Is this the Air Regulator in question? Next to the dip stick?

Update: See bottom reply for updated picture.
Modified by golgo13 at 8:47 AM 7/9/2006

[rogoman]

Doesn't look like it.Here's a picture of it out of the FSM:

[vancouverbc]

This is for a 1991 ka24de engine but there might be similarities.

This is a pic of the air regulator. The intake manifold is removed to reveal the air regulator. Notice how the brass pipe branches off to the air regulator. Pinch the rubber hose at this junction to see if it makes a difference. It should make a difference when car is starting in cold condition as the air reg. supplies air during cold start. Use a cloth to protect rubber hose when pinching with long pliers. You can also pinch off the rubber hose right at the iacv to test IACV.


Modified by vancouverbc at 7:16 PM 7/8/2006

[benemorius]

About the IACV and whatnot: Does the car start if you hold the gas pedal partially down? If not, then your problem can't be anything of the sort. If so, then that's exactly where your problem is.

As for the ticking: It's a lifter tapping and it may well go away after you take the car out for a steady cruise for several minutes.

[NISTECH]

The weak "loping" sound from your engine in the last video suggests low compression in the cyl. This does not mean the engine has a problem ,what it means is there is too much fuel in the cyl's washing down the cyl walls. This in combination with the extreamly low idle when it does start suggests, as mentioned above, your air regulator is not opening or your IACV is adjusted to low. On a 90 240 your air regulator is mounted right on top of the plentium [if you removed the picture layed over the upper right corner of your attached picture you would see it] Check the electrical connection to it see if there is green crust growing in it. If not gently remove the hoses and take it off the engine. Blow through it. You should be able to blow through with no restriction. If you cant you need to replace it as it is stuck closed.

[golgo13]

Wow, I appreciate all this help. Based on the diagram and the description from NISTECH, I think I found it. (image 1 highlighted) It looks like a tight location under those two big hoses and assembly just above and to the right.

IMAGE 1:

The first thing I did was check the terminal connection as instructed and I did notice some green crud. (image 2)

I also noticed that when I disconnected the connector, a piece of plastic broke and a metal fastener of some sort came off. (image 3 inset) I'm not too sure how secure it is now. Anyway...



Now, I didn't attempt to start the car at all today and went directly to the air regulator to inspect. After some scraping, I went and tried to start the car. It had a bit of stumble for 2 seconds then went to 1100 RPM for normal warmup. I turned off and restarted without issue. I didn't locate the IDLE adjustment (IACV/ACC) as of yet, I was kind of anxious to take a look at the terminal and get these pictures for you to see and confirm.

[benemorius]

You did indeed find it.

The adjustment screw can be found right under here. Stand over the right fender and look into where the arrow is pointing. It will be a slightly recessed flathead screw about a centimeter in diameter. That arrow is supposed to appear to be beneath those metal fuel lines.

[vancouverbc]

I can see the brass cylindrical AAC solenoid in the pic benemorius used to show where the idle adjustment screw is. Practice removing the staple fastener on an easily accessible plug.

[golgo13]

I can't believe I missed it but I found it. It's recessed and the only screw that doesn't look like the rest.



Ok, so I went to start the car and it had a stumble but it did start so I shut off and went and adjusted the screw. I turned it counterclockwise (correct direction?) about 6mm or so. I went and restarted the car zipped to 1200 rpm and slowly dropped to 800 rpm. How sensitive is the screw?

I regret no knowing about the staple fastners and damaging the harness connector. Learn by doing, I guess. I have to secure that with tape or replace the harness or something...? I did practice on a another connector with no problem. I want to take her out and put some miles on and see what happens tomorrow monring before work. I won't be able to fully remove the air regulator for inspection until I get some free time or next weekend. Well, it's getting late and I learned alot. Wish me luck!

[NISTECH]

adjust that screw with the car at operating temp and the tps disconnected. This will set your Base idle. you also check timing at this point. Unscrewing it ups the idle and screwing it in drops the idle.

[golgo13]

Ok, the weather has been abysmal and has afforded very little chance of doing much but I squeezed in some minor testing. First, I adjusted the idle as NISTECH instructed. I first did it without TPS connected etc.. newbie mistake. I put a good set of milage on her and came home, read NISTECH posts, and readjusted accordingly. Image below shows how much I adjusted. Are you supposed to hear the idle change real-time as you adjust it? I didn't. The car was warm and running with TPS disconnected.

Next Day, morning startup. It didn't spring into starting like a warm car but I did NOT get a "no start condition". No looping sounds. You tell me, things are looking good so far? One thing to note is the RPM, it goes to 1000 slowly dips a second, then rises slowly until warm up.

Now the bad..3rd Day, Low RPM, Dead Car startup. As someone stated before, I did have to slightly press the accelerator on the retry to get her going and it was rough until it warmed up. Here'a brief video of it dying on the first attempt.

I went and adjusted the valve some more today but I think it may be futile as all things are pointing to a bad Air Regulator. I will remove the air regulator as pictured in the previous posts and try to test it, as instructed, this weekend. The two big tubes above the regulator are they safe to remove? (no fluids?) Any special precautions or things to do while trying to get access to the regulator and remove it?

Edit: I obtained the item part number as an IACV-Air Regulator 22660-40F60.

thx

Modified by golgo13 at 9:45 AM 7/12/2006
Modified by golgo13 at 11:02 AM 7/12/2006

[vancouverbc]

Seems that your air regulator works if your rpm goes to 1100. When you are having a hard start , squeeze the hose with pliers(use cloth) and see if cutting off air supply to air reg. makes a difference. If it makes no difference, the air reg. is closed. Do the same with iacv. I guess you could also unplug it. I would clean the iacv. also, unplug the pair valve if you have one.
Modified by vancouverbc at 10:16 PM 7/12/2006