Will spacers in the rear cause under steer?

[Soravia]

I have a couple of 10mm spacers from my old Mitsubishi Precis and thinking about putting them on the back of my S-13. Will it cause the car to under steer? Or will it help a tiny weeny bit of stability? Or should I go and put some in the front as well?

I'll be running 7 inch wheels with +43 offset.Thanks

[yokota180sx]

no...but the lack of rubber will force you into a wall at speed

[gumby74]

hahaha.They said you were in time out? Its been pretty boring here.To the OP: Are you serious?

[Soravia]

7 inch width, not diameter.

[yokota180sx]

no ****really?

[chitownguy]

Basically Yokota is saying no it won't cause understeer and you're stupid for asking.

I on the otherhand laugh at this thread.

[Soravia]

My main concern was the wider wheel with +43 offset not clearing the car.It's not necessary now because I sticked with stock wheels and put on better tires.

I'm still deciding to put on spacers or not for the looks though. I will need longer wheel studs that won't crap out like eGay stuff.

[Nismo_Freak]

Basically Yokota is saying no it won't cause understeer and you're stupid for asking.

I on the otherhand laugh at this thread.

Laugh all you want but both of you are incorrect.

Adjusting the track of a vehicle will alter it's dynamic personality. It will affect roll couple and ultimately weight transfer. In this case the rear outer wheel will have less load on it and in the instance of a low load rated tire you will more than likely develop push in steady state handling.

This is why Porsche designs their MR and RR cars to have significant amounts of rear stagger and uneven track. It evens out the load distribution on the tires in steady state handling causing the front to wash out giving the car stability for a novice driver.

[AZhitman]

...and the kid from Tejas brings a pocketful of pwn!

[yokota180sx]

yeson a race carin his applicationit wont affect ****

[Nismo_Freak]

yeson a race carin his applicationit wont affect ****

Again, no.

The same physics apply, a race car will understeer just the same as his car. Just because it is capable of taking a turn faster doesn't mean the car won't behave the same at the limit.

[yokota180sx]

im still calling bull****you can claim everything you want

but there are 8 million other factors other than track width that will cause understeer in our cars

adding spacers, isnt going to change anything. at all

[Nismo_Freak]

im still calling bull****you can claim everything you want

but there are 8 million other factors other than track width that will cause understeer in our cars

adding spacers, isnt going to change anything. at all

You can call all you want. Fact is you are arguing about something you don't comprehend, and as a result you are resorting to simply denying logical reasoning because you cannot refute it.

[yokota180sx]

noi completely understand it

but im saying, in his and 80% of our configurationsan additional 20mm of track will not change any handling dynamics

can you really say it will?

[jdm180]

yes i can say it will. especially when drifting. its all about angles man. having your rear tires spaced out more than your front will cause the rears to push the car more than you want it to.

[yokota180sx]

20mm?im saying yeah its not gonna

I drifted on 3 sets of wheelsand none of them made a changesome were 7j/9j/10j

this is at the track BTW not on the road or whatever kids do these days

20mm is not going to make a difference that he will be able to notice

[Nismo_Freak]

noi completely understand it

but im saying, in his and 80% of our configurationsan additional 20mm of track will not change any handling dynamics

can you really say it will?

Yes it will.

Track width is a key component in lateral load shift. If you transfer less load to the outer tire at the limit then you are creating an understeer situation in this case.

[Nismo_Freak]

20mm?im saying yeah its not gonna

I drifted on 3 sets of wheelsand none of them made a changesome were 7j/9j/10j

Drifting? ... since when is drifting a viable test bed for steady state handling?

Drifting is 90% driver input related. All that clutch kicking, flicking, and trail braking will override minor changes to suspension geometry. By the time you are using the effective part of the low speed valving in the shock the car is in a skid.

[yokota180sx]

Hehehe

but IF understeer was effected, it shoudl still change the way i needed to initiate and transition through turns....i have damn sure understeered before due to going into the turn above the traction of the tires, and being stupid, but there havent been changes between tire/wheel wisths

[onosqv]

I think both of you are just arguing different points...

looks like yokota is taking the subjective standpoint - there are no noticeable changes, you won't feel **** difference

looks like Nismo_Freak is taking the more scientific standpoint - there are changes - he is not arguing whether or not most drivers will notice the difference, in the end there is more understeer - the actual amount may be neglible, but there is a difference.

Yes, there are plenty of things that affect oversteer/understeer - just because something doesn't affect it a significant amount, doesn't mean it isn't doing anything...

You don't have to believe Nismo_Freak, you don't have to believe the many of threads/articles on how track affects oversteer/understeer on various forums (kart forums come to mind here).

10mm doesn't seem like a lot, and in this case, it probably won't do anything noticeable, but doesn't mean it doesn't do anything.

One example from personal experience:

Approximately 1.5-2 months ago, we went to an autox day - my friend's car: s14, ka-t, running 17x10 all around, +12 in front, +25 in back, 255 & 275 tires respectively. Car handled oddly, slightly unpredictable. It was driveable, learnable, but the drivers would be fighting it a lot during the course of the day (weird oversteer problems needing a lot of counter steer correction) - veteran/instructor drivers noticed this, too.

Next event a couple weeks ago. Same exact setup, but added spacers to rear, effectively making it +12 & +10 front & rear. Pretty much all the drivers who drove the car felt it was significantly more neutral than before. Car still needs tweaking, but definitely better than the +12 & +25 setup.

[AZhitman]

A professional / experienced driver would notice it.

The average driver would simply subconsciously "deal" with the car as it is, which is exactly what happened to Yoko when he hit the track with 3 different wheel widths.

Incidentally, they were probably 3 different tire types, at 3 different temperatures, at 3 different pressures, at 3 different ambient air temps, with 3 different wheel weights, so it's pretty irrelevant as a benchmark.

[hannibal]

7 inch width, not diameter.

no ****really?

[Nismo_Freak]

but IF understeer was effected, it shoudl still change the way i needed to initiate and transition through turns....i have damn sure understeered before due to going into the turn above the traction of the tires, and being stupid, but there havent been changes between tire/wheel wisths

When the car is put into a slide there is maybe 1/3rd the weight transfer, because there is 1/3rd the lateral acceleration. Thats because the car's center mass is taking a very long and typically slow path around the corner.

"Initiation" involves shocking the rear tires lose with a clutch kick or some other method of driver input. You might notice some tendency to understeer if you just jerked the wheel in on the corner, or if you flicked the car into the corner you'd notice the rear end might be a bit less live.

Every drifter I've ever ridden with generally didn't have finite feel for the car because they were too busy beating the **** out of it.

That's why you can't feel the difference.

[yokota180sx]

eh, i can tell when my car is wanting to understeer mid drift as well as intiation, and exit

but i also grip my cars too, so that may be why

[Soravia]

For the record I don't drift. I don't have any place to even pratice. (Rain doesn't count)

My car is not a track car either, my sig shows.But I do drive my car to the limits time to time, just so that I can find out what I can or can't do with it.I want to add the spacers to get the flush look, but I'm just concerned about change in handling. I have a habit of turning corners at high speed thanks to experience with slow cars so change in handling has more impact on my driving.I usually come in to the corners a little hot, tap the brake in the middle and bring the rear around.

[yokota180sx]

you will be finetheory is great and allbut real world application>theory

put it onif yuo dont liek ittake em off

[Soravia]

Where do you recommend getting longer studs? I don't have plenty of money to spend but I'd like something OE quality and not eGay quality. I'm going to completely rebuild the rear calipers soon and want to try it out at the same time.Thanks

[onosqv]

Nismo Extended Studs

I would seriously just save the money & trouble of doing extended studs, spacers, etc and just get the correct offset rim...

a 7" wide rim of +33 doesn't look any better than one w/ +43 on a 240.

[Soravia]

I'm not going to the 16x7 +43 now. I'm keeping the stock 15x6 +40 wheels.Just planning to put them or for the looks because I have the spacers lying around and I need to take the brakes apart anyway.