Why we can’t win in Iraq (Identity, Patriotism and the Myth of Accountability)

[Encryptshun]

Part One -- Identity

na•tion –noun a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own

As if the definition above isn’t enough of an explanation as to why we cannot accomplish our new goals over there, I’d like for us to have some open dialogue as to why or why not the new Iraq is fundamentally dysfunctional. And why we should have known better.

Identity

I doubt anyone can argue that it takes more than borders and a capital to make a nation (whether or not you agree with the definition above). If we look at the truly successful Democratic nations of the world we will see one global constant – the will to self-govern based on a broad unified set of moral/political/economic ideals. A fledgling revolutionary body strives against an oppressive and/or autocratic embedded hegemony; the people forge a collective “identity” based on opposition to the current government’s position. This relational identity eventually becomes a core ethos of the vox populii and allows for necessary activities such as legislative compromise, minority input & dissent, and civil disobedience to be tolerated and embraced as an essential part of the overall process of supporting the people.

Because there was no unified revolutionary movement within Iraq prior to the fall of Saddam, no leader rose up through the ranks to be the figurehead that the other Iraqis could rally behind. There was no George Washington, no Nelson Mandella, no Mahatma Ghandi, and so on and so forth. We came in as an outside aggressor and forced independence and change upon them. We didn’t support them in their own revolution. We revolted “on their behalf”. Was there a need for a change? Maybe. It is possible that the Iraqi people will be better off now? Sure. Did we ASK Iraq if it WANTED to be liberated before invading their country? NO.

So I offer another analogy:

You are in a dark room and you’ve been in there for a while. You bark your shins on the coffee table, you have to feel around to find things, but you’ve adapted to your environment as best as you can. You know there’s a light switch, but you want to be sure you shut your eyes before you flip it so you can open them slowly and let your eyes adjust. You are staring at where the wall is on the other side of the room when *WHAM*! Someone flicks on the light switch, blinding you. So now you’ve gone from being blind in the dark to being blind in the light, and even though you now have the person who flipped on the switch holding your arm and guiding you around, you’re still blind. When it was dark you knew you had a limitation, but you’d adapted. You’d learned the system. Now you don’t even have that. As your eyes gradually start to adjust, you realize that there are some others in the room as well, and these are your sworn enemies. You never knew who they were before, because you were all blind and in the dark. Worse still, the guy who turned on the lights is trying to lead everyone together for a group hug because he says “it’ll be great, just give it a try” but you don’t WANT to hug a bunch of ***-tards that you hate. And goddamn it, it’s YOUR HOUSE and here’s this new guy who not only turned on the lights without you asking for it but who is now telling you what to do and who to hug and so on and so forth. So you get close enough to one of your enemies to hit him before he hits you and you take that opportunity. In order to hit him, you gotta free up your arm from the guy who’s leading you, so you pull away from him, hit your enemy, and then try to start walking again, but on your own this time. Only he keeps grabbing for you, trying to get your arm again, so you hit HIM now.

Iraq has no identity. Under Saddam, each divisive faction understood that there was a “self” and an “other” and that they’d better step right or “self” would be introduced to “Mr. Saren”. I sum it up in the following progressive metaphor –

Bad: Tribal Iraqis under Saddam decided that poking a bear with a short stick was preferable to working with other stick-holders to build a wall too tall for the bear to climb over. Worse: They’re still doing it. Iraq Today: We’re the bear.

[Encryptshun]

I hate doing this, but I'm going to bump my own thread -- I'd really like to see what sort of response it evokes in you folks.

[rn79870]

Encrypt, I think the problem is that everyone believes as you do here. Maybe the reasons differ, but the jest is the same. We can't win.

Now, if anyone believes otherwise, the floor is yours.

[S13SR20]

I do not believe that anyone can understand Iraq unless you have been there and seen it first hand. Unless you have been to Iraq what do you know about it? You know what other people tell you, Hippie Reporters, anti war pu55ies, and god knows who else. Iraq will never unify behind one man, I just don't see it possible, there are too many tribes, too many people that want to be leaders etcetera. You don't see the people cheering as you roll by, then the next day you get called out to a house and you see those same people murdered, for being pro American. I was in the thick of the crap in Baqubah, at FOB Scunion (directly on RPG ally). I'm not ine of these guys that went to Iraq and stayed on camp the entire tour. I was out there engaging, patroling and getting shot at. I have the scars all over my face to prove it.

I just get really annoyed reading all of these dumb post like why can we not get out of Iraq, lets just pull out BS. Look we are there, we can not pull out it's just not going to happen any time soon, and if we do god help us.

Let's stop wondering why we are there or when we are pulling out, just accept it and SUPPORT THE TROOPS that are still there!

[Encryptshun]

Encrypt, I think the problem is that everyone believes as you do here. Maybe the reasons differ, but the jest is the same. We can't win.

Now, if anyone believes otherwise, the floor is yours.

Bobby, if what you say is true and nobody thinks we can win in Iraq, then why do we seem to have such strong support for "staying the course"? Why do we defend John McCain when he says:

"It's not a matter of how long we're in Iraq, it's if we succeed or not. And both Sen. Obama and Clinton want to set a date for withdrawal -- that means chaos, that means genocide, that means undoing all the success we've achieved and al Qaeda tells the world they defeated the United States of America. I won't let that happen."

[rn79870]

My reasoning is simple. One day, whether it is tomorrow or 10 years from now, we have to leave Iraq. We can't afford to station troops throughout the world, and they may be needed in another more pressing part of the world.

The problems the Iraqi people face are just being postponed until we leave. Muslims have never accepted westerners, instead they view us as evil. They want little to do with us, our customs and our government. Once we leave, it's business as usual for the forces we are battling over there now. All they need to do is be patient.

I don't have a crystal ball, but it seems clear to me that fighting a "war" that has no clear "end" or "final objective" is futile. When will the point of victory be reached? When violence subsides? When they elect a leader who tells us to take our money and go home? When we spend another half trillion dollars and are no better off than we are now? There is no defined goal - no line to cross. This mess will continue past our childrens life, probably into our grandchildrens life. I also think this will brand Bush 2nd. as the dumbest president to hold the office.

Finally, tell me what we are to do if a situation arises, be it North Korea, Iran, etc. Where we need to act defensively? Are we going to pull the troops then?

Nothing in this post should be construed as diminishing the support I offer our troops. They are valuable assets and each of them is precious to the US, and should not be wasted in defense of a country that will turn on us at the first opportunity.

[Encryptshun]

^

I also salute our troops and the job they are doing. I'm thinking, though, that maybe the best way out of the situation is not to encourage a unified Iraq. What's wrong with trying to get it broken up into smaller parts? That's what we did with Germany, right?

[S13SR20]

You are right we did divide Germany up into East (Russia) and West (United States), we are also still in Germany 60 years later... We also have post in Japan, Kosovo (Slobodan Milošević, 1999) and so forth, I would say that Iraq will have a permanent post in the NEAR future as well.


Modified by S13SR20 at 2:45 PM 5/28/2008

[Encryptshun]

^I'm not against a permanent post/base in Iraq. There is a huge difference between a "post" and a "troop mobilization".

The troops deployed to Guantanamo Bay, for example, aren't actively patrolling the rest of Cuba and engaging an opposing militant force.

[S13SR20]

OK then what do you purpose we do, obviously you are really good at complaining so let's hear some of you grand ideas... I mean the generals, and other officers that have been doing this for years aren't doing a good enough job for you...

Everyone wants to complain and yet they don't have a f-ing clue, so really what should we do?????

[Eikon]

Our nation was fairly successful in rebuilding Germany and Japan after WWII. I wonder if our leaders think that prior success will continue through today.

The problem is that those nations were far different than modern day Iraq.

I agree with Encrypshun that Iraq will probably never exist peacefully as one country unless it's ruled by a very strong dictator. It's too different, too diverse, too large, to be consolidated that well.

But I don't think we should pull out of the country. It's simply not stable there. The moment we walk away they will have massive problems and from what I've heard, the government won't be able to contain that blow-up.

So I think we owe them a slow and steady withdrawel. Continue to train the Iraqies and help them shape themselves. If they decide to break up into a few different nations, then we should support that action.

Everything takes time, but our world has become far too impatient.

[S13SR20]

But I don't think we should pull out of the country. It's simply not stable there. The moment we walk away they will have massive problems and from what I've heard, the government won't be able to contain that blow-up.

So I think we owe them a slow and steady withdrawel. Continue to train the Iraqies and help them shape themselves. If they decide to break up into a few different nations, then we should support that action.

Everything takes time, but our world has become far too impatient.

That is an agreeable statement, is that not what the plan is of now anyway...?

[Eikon]

That is an agreeable statement, is that not what the plan is of now anyway...?

I think that is the plan of the current administration, but they won't make any long term promises... only short term statements like, "the national and local governments are making progress but are not ready yet for us to leave".

Any statements that would put us there past a year from now would be a serious political problem. Since clearly our government is more interested in keeping their jobs than in doing a good job, they won't make any statements that might cost them votes.

Sounds like all three of the current Pres. Candidates are trying to make promises to leave Iraq ASAP.

now... what does "asap" really mean?

[S13FX]

I don't usually chime in on conversations like this cause well I have crazy point of views.

Only reason I'm posting here is cause Eikon held me against my will and told me too heh.

Anyways I spend 8 years in the military, in a unit I rather not mention right now.

First let me touch on the whole why not pull out from Iraq. In the army we have this response when someone asks us that which is, "pull out of Iraq? Dude we have pulling out of Germany for the last 60 years now." Let me tell you germany has a nice *** base, the problem is contrary to belife, the germans have been trying to kick us out of there for well for as long as I can remeber.

Only reason America is having a problem with it well cause simple thats our hub to all of europe and middle east. DUH.

As for Iraq and lets not forget Afghanistan. Well **** if America is blind and can't see that the BS excuses we get everyday from the news about why we are there then its not my problem.

This about this about 10 years ago when you heard the word alqueda did you know wtf that was probably not why, cause no such thing really existed until our Genius higher ups made them celebrities of today.

Here is another thing about 15 years ago when you heard terrorlst attack, bomb thread, or any top of bombing. Did you think in your head of **** the Alqueda are here. No probably not, everyone just thought it was jsut another psycho on a loose.

As for supporting the troops, I belive that they deserve every little support they can get. Why, because its not like we are there cause we want to be there, We are not there to fight for yours or mine freedom, we are there to make sure that your home boy, who stands next to you during formation, will still be standing there when we are back.

As for Iraq liberation or government. My Aunt used to live in iraq in the late 70's early 80's. And mind you we are Polish 100%. She says it was one of the nicest countries she has ever seen or been to.

Now did Iraq have it bad when Sadam was in power no. Saddam might have been crazy and had weird point of views but he had his country under control the way the country was brought up in.

You can think what you want but if you look at that parts of the country History you will see that thats how they always have been living.

So there thats just a very brief opinion that I have. I kinda wrote it in a hurry so might have goofed some things up in there. But feel free to ask or say anything and I will gladly explain. I know that part of the world pretty much like the back of my hand, unfortunately not cause of tourism.

[rn79870]

OK then what do you purpose we do, obviously you are really good at complaining so let's hear some of you grand ideas... I mean the generals, and other officers that have been doing this for years aren't doing a good enough job for you...

Everyone wants to complain and yet they don't have a f-ing clue, so really what should we do?????

What we do is we pack up and go home. We're going to have to do that one day anyway. When we do, whatever happens is going to happen. It's a situation Washington got us into with no exit plan. They (Washington) can't even define a demarcation point that defines a win in Iraq.

Meanwhile, 4000+ lives, and half a trillion dollars later we're still in a quagmire of hopelessness. Time to pack up and come home.

[S13FX]

What we do is we pack up and go home. We're going to have to do that one day anyway. When we do, whatever happens is going to happen. It's a situation Washington got us into with no exit plan. They (Washington) can't even define a demarcation point that defines a win in Iraq.

Meanwhile, 4000+ lives, and half a trillion dollars later we're still in a quagmire of hopelessness. Time to pack up and come home.

That would be awesome wouldnt it now, Except now the problem is how the hell we going to pack up trillions of tons of equipment and just return it here. Unfortunately we have more equipment over seas to fight our battles then we do at home.

And there is no way we are going to leave anything over there, look what happen in Afghanistan after we gave them **** ton of our weapons to fight the Russians, now we're paying for it heh.

[ishkabibble]

That would be awesome wouldnt it now, Except now the problem is how the hell we going to pack up trillions of tons of equipment and just return it here. Unfortunately we have more equipment over seas to fight our battles then we do at home.

Simple. We torch the marginal stuff and bring home the expensive/high-tech stuff. We got it there, we can get it back.

And there is no way we are going to leave anything over there, look what happen in Afghanistan after we gave them **** ton of our weapons to fight the Russians, now we're paying for it heh.

They are using our old 1980s weapons against us instead of arms they've obtained through other channels?

[S13SR20]

Great idea let's just pack up and go home! Sorry son your battle died for nothing right...So when Iran decides to buck up we'll just spend all that money over again to go back over. Great idea why have we not though of the run away method before!

S13FX, email me sometime curious as to what your unit [email protected] or hit me on AIM: scrapinx

[ishkabibble]

Great idea let's just pack up and go home! Sorry son your battle died for nothing right...

Did I say that? At this point, I think Iraq should be split into 3 parts and then we should bail and the neocons should issue a formal apology to the world.

Dying for no reason was decided when we went to this war. Going home is going to stop the hemorrhaging of money and lives.

So when Iran decides to buck up we'll just spend all that money over again to go back over. Great idea why have we not though of the run away method before!

Iran is about as serious of a threat to us as Iraq was.

ROFL... yeah, let's go back and finish up that Vietnam fight while we're at it. It was a terrible idea to get out of there, right?

Keep chasing ghosts, and we're not going to be ready when a real threat comes around.

[S13SR20]

Yeah....I wasn't talking to you there bud but ok... Vietnam huh... Yeah Identical situations...????

[wawazat8402]

I agree with the comment about Saddam. I dont think Americans realized that Saddam, as cruel and harsh as he could be, was exactly the type of leader that area needs. Theyve never had any type of unity under a passive regime. It seems they have to be forced to act as a united country.

So, I guess IMO the country needs to move 1 of 2 directions.

1. Find another leader like Saddam to take over.

2. As was mentioned before, split the country into tribal sections and let them rule their own little piece as they see fit.

To address the supporting of troops. I dont think I have met anyone who was against the war that held any type of negative feelings towards our troops. It seems that the Republicans try to shift our desire for closure to the war in Iraq as being against the soldiers. Thats just ridiculous and ignorant. For one to support the troops, they must not also be in support of the war. I think those of us that see no gain coming from our presence there are actually supporting the troops more than the pro-war campaign. We just dont see our troops as being expendable assets of the country.

[ishkabibble]

Yeah....I wasn't talking to you there bud but ok... Vietnam huh... Yeah Identical situations...????

Whoops, my bad.

Yeah, I think they're pretty much identical. An unwinnable guerrilla war.

[smockers83]

The notion of winning in Iraq is hard to define. What determines a win? Have we already won? What's left to do to win?

Winning a war is no longer the same as it was once WWII was over where one side surrenders and a peace agreement is signed. The success of rebuilding Europe and Japan after the war are all a very unique situation. Europe because lessons were learned from the aftermath of WWI that you can't have a country pay reparations and at the same time essentially shut down their economy. Japan, well I'm not as brushed up on Japan as I should be.

Iraq and Vietnam do have their similarities, however are different situations. Although one could almost make a claim that they started the same way. The US let its emotions get the best of it and broke containment. The way to fight terrorism is through a modified Cold War policy.

But we are in Iraq. McCain is right that we may be there for 100 years. It is not realistic to say alright, we're done, we're bringing everyone home. It just cannot happen. If Obama does that, we are royally f'ed and so are Iraqis. As was mentioned earlier, we have troops and bases in Europe, Japan, along the S/N Korean border, places where war was over 60 years ago. The fact that we will be in Iraq for 60+ years is inevitable. The difference with Iraq compared to the success of Europe is the lack of a strong economy, a lack of unity and identity, and the fact that there wasn't a call for change. Had Iraqis called for change, organized amongst themselves, and asked for our support, we would support them with minimal troops, but in ways to allow them to succeed and back them. That's how you topple a government and have success relatively quickly in terms of nation building.

Generals don't always know what they're doing and the best way to go about it. They may know what they do the best, but the absolute best way is another thing. Case in point--Cuban missile crisis. Top generals on Kennedy's staff wanted to shoot out the missiles, send troops, or something militarily. They know how to blow stuff up but forget the politics involved and consequences. Once a military action was known to the USSR, good bye US cities in a few minutes. I know its completely different, but try and see my point.

[ishkabibble]

The notion of winning in Iraq is hard to define. What determines a win? Have we already won? What's left to do to win?

Well, one part of winning is when the fighting stops, so, no, we haven't already "won".

[rn79870]

You see, that's the problem. The American people hear the word "win" and they assume that the USS Missouri will sale into some bay, and a surrender ceremony will occur and everyone will put down their weapons...

It isn't going to happen. Not in a guerrilla war. Either you kill every last one of them, which is not possible, or you fight them forever, which is not practical.

Hence, a no win war.

[S13FX]

Ok let me ask a simple question. What is the purpose of the war we are actually fighting right now?

And lets be realistic I am kinda curious as to what others peoples opinions are as to what we are fighting for.

Second of all the war fare in Iraq is unlike any type of war fare we ever really fought. If you think about it we bearly have any stand off fire fights, dog fights and all that jazz.

Most of the time we are just fighting against exploding crap which I wouldnt really call it fighting.

[rn79870]

We entered this war believing Sadam, the tyrant, had WMDs that were poised to be used against the US and our allies. Bad intelligence? Incompetent leader? Who knows.

We remain there, fighting because we have no idea what needs to be done to leave. A stable government? Little or no violence? Peace treaty (with whom)?

Neighboring countries have/are supporting terrorlst activity in Iraq. They are resolve in their desire to insure that we (the US) fails there. The reality of the situation is that we may fail there.

The US doesn't understand the region, the players or the religious philosophy that drives the Arabs almost to a frenzy. What idiot in his right mind would go toe to toe with a Cobra or an Apache armed only with an AK-47? Our lack of understanding of the region, and our activities in that area of the world has earned us an almost universal disdain from the rest of the world.

To answer your question as to why we are still fighting there, we are still fighting there due to incompetent, pathetically incompetent, leadership. I do not mean the uniformed military, I mean the moron sitting in the oval office. He remains clueless, as do his advisers, with respect to our exit from the region.

[WDRacing]

I've been in 3 separate foreign wars. I've shed my own blood and the blood of others in many a foreign country. I did time in Special Operations as well as Combat Rescue. From a soldiers perspective it's very difficult to think outside the box. It's something we simply can't do...start thinking about why we're here or there and you start getting yourself and others killed or injured in the process. That's simple fact...stay focused, do what you're trained to do and watch the guy next to you. I've hovered in to Hot LZs and picked up bodies that range from dead children to ******* politicians that needed to get the f*** out of dodge in a hurry. I've also flown on countless sorties simply to bring relief supplies to people suffering from ALL the bad things we dream about. I've seen helicopters blown up, I've watched an entire special forces unit, the 160th Special Task Force, lose a Chinook to massive ground fire...then I watched the squad try to evac the helo only to be cut down by two fire teams shooting from an elevated and covered position.

No one wants to end this war as badly as I do...

Whats the point? I'm no longer active duty...I have stepped back and examined the situation from outside the box. I'll support my brothers in arms till the last breath leaves my lungs...but we're fighting a war that has no end. WWWII was over in 6 years...how many years have we been dumping the sand out of our boots now? How many times have you sat back and cursed the politicians and their bullsh1t restrictions about who we can and can't fire at. How many times have we had to sit back and allow good American boys to get killed because the collateral damage was deemed to costly during a political Operational Risk Management meeting. How many times have you forgotten why you were there when it's month 9 out of 14. How many times have we missed a child's first steps...or a birth...or any number of extremely important things that we'll never have the chance to see again? The answer is simple...To God damn many.

Show me any enemy to fight, give me an attainable objective. Then don't tell me how to go about doing what I do best.

The issue isn't should we have gone over there in the first place...to late, we're there. The issue is how do we feasibly get home and defend the country we give our lives for every day. When do WE get to experience the freedom we fight for? When we lose a leg? When we are so fvcked up mentally that we suffer from severe PTSD...(Mike).

How many of us have been through a divorce now and can say that the long and multiple deployments didn't have anything to do with it? Not many...yet we're the same people that when called upon, will drop everything, run to the closet and grab the mobility bag that is always packed and disappear into the dark without question.

When is it our turn?

That's what this is about. I'll never turn my back on those that serve, I just want us to have a chance to live without all the political war mongering. Are you telling me that we can't better spend over a billion dollars a day to reach some type of final objective?

We need to get home...if the answer is to build a few permanent party military bases and rotate to and from on real orders...so be it.

We are Combat Ineffective right now. Not because we can't, but because we aren't allowed to. How can we be expected to fight for no objective and with one hand?

Our great Nation is stumbling into a possible recession, while our military men and women remain under paid, under supplied and pissed off. Yet the people running the war are sitting in nice comfortable offices while our families go without...enough. We spend enough money in one month in Iraq to give every single child in America a college education at no charge with enough money to build a fence that will span the entire country and pay for it to be monitored. That is one month...just one.

It's time to come home.

[rn79870]

Brian's points are right on the money from a 1st. hand perspective.

We love what America provides, and the opportunities it allows for our families. We are willing to sacrifice for her, and provide for her defense, and we most certainly support those who bear arms for her defense.

However, the lessons of Vietnam and now Iraq lead me to believe that no one person, no president, should have the authority to commit American troops to harms way. That power needs to be vested in the congress. Once the troops are committed, then the president, congress, even the American people need to stand back and let the military run the show.

As far as I'm concerned, American troops should be deployed for the protection of America, and the allies that have stood beside us in hard times. Not, under any circumstance for as reason such as that used for the invasion of Iraq.

[S13FX]

As far as I'm concerned, American troops should be deployed for the protection of America, and the allies that have stood beside us in hard times. Not, under any circumstance for as reason such as that used for the invasion of Iraq.

Here my friend I want to say in my opinion you hit the nail right on the head.

If this country just worried about their own good, and what to do to make our selves better not other ****in countries, we could be the safest place in the world.

Think we are surrounded by ocean from three sides best defese ever, if we would only build up our space program more, dedicated more money towards education so we're not the dumbest country in the world, and actually did something towards medi care then man oh man the American Dream could actually be realistic heh.

But instead we loose 14 trillion a week to see our boys my brothers get their ****in heads blown off.

Just thinking about it wants me standing somewhere on a huge hill in WA, and put some depleted uranium rounds through my AS50.