Why Nissan NEEDS an Affordable RWD Sports Car

A General Discussion forum for cars and other topics, and a great place to introduce yourself if you are new to NICO!
User avatar
VQpwrdSE-R
Posts: 649
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:32 pm
Car: 2005 Code Red Nissan Altima SE-R
2013 Nissan Altima SV
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Why Nissan NEEDS an Affordable RWD Sports Car

Postby VQpwrdSE-R » Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:52 pm

Jay's on our side!!! In an episode of jays garage he goes to the Japan and vists with Chief design officer Shiro Nakamura. Jay makes his opinion well known while he's there. He would love to see the z return to its roots with size, performance, and affordability, and design cues that compliment the z heritage.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV505LKq ... ata_player[/youtube]

If you ask me they may need to clean up that rear quarter on the fairlady z in the design studio. Jay gets up in there lovin' it strong at 5:37


User avatar
krash
Posts: 5064
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:43 am
Car: 1993 Nissan 240sx Convertible
Location: Memphis, TN
Contact:

Re: Why Nissan NEEDS an Affordable RWD Sports Car

Postby krash » Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:53 pm

:rotfl I saw this posted on NICO bookface. Definitely a cool video.

Some of those concept drawings though :eek:

User avatar
PapaSmurf2k3
Site Admin
Posts: 23283
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2002 3:20 pm
Car: 2017 Corvette, 2018 Focus ST, 2001 Miata turbo, 1993 240sx truck KA Turbo.
Location: Oxford, MS
Contact:

Re: Why Nissan NEEDS an Affordable RWD Sports Car

Postby PapaSmurf2k3 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:42 pm

Yeah concept drawings from pretty much every company have been junk for quite some time now. I don't understand why they get paid to dootle like that. They look awful and would no way work in the real world.

I guess it gives the cooler heads a starting point though?

User avatar
AZhitman
Administrator
Posts: 70227
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2002 2:04 am
Car: 72 240Z RB25, 63 Bluebird RHD, 63 NL320, 67 WRL411, 67 SPL311, 68 510 SR, 77 620 SR20, 89 Pao, 97 D21, 98 S14, 11 LS460L, 12 Titan 4x4.
Location: Surprise, Arizona
Contact:

Re: Why Nissan NEEDS an Affordable RWD Sports Car

Postby AZhitman » Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:13 pm

This is the fellow we're trying to reach out to (discussing the Leaf battery degradation issues)...

"Frankly speaking, our engagement, particularly through Internet medium and the blog medium, we haven't done a good enough job... we need a mirror, to tell us what we're doing well, and what we're doing not so well."

Encouraging? Perhaps. But that mirror shouldn't be limited to electric vehicle issues - considering their marginal significance to market share.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1tfX7fRWPI[/youtube]

Hopefully, if Mr. Palmer is reading a tiny Nissan Leaf forum, he'll also be reading this.

BTW, Mr. Palmer, I'm "Mr. Arizona", and I think I might be able to help re-establish the Leaf's credibility here in the Valley (32-mile one-way commute)... Feel free to contact me ta arrange delivery of one of the "gently-used" buybacks. I can't promise you I won't vinyl wrap it in NICOclub livery, but it'd be good PR for both of us. :)

User avatar
Jesda
Posts: 39627
Joined: Mon May 05, 2003 1:50 pm
Car: BMW 328 vert, Cadillac Seville STS F55 Magneride
Location: THE D
Contact:

Re: Why Nissan NEEDS an Affordable RWD Sports Car

Postby Jesda » Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:25 pm

If stodgy, moribund Toyota is selling excitement through Scion then Nissan has no excuse, especially with the chasm left by the demise of America's oldest excitement brand, Pontiac.

Also, I think Christine is on to something.



Stop slapping 4DSC stickers on to obese land barges and start building cars I want to drive. Even if Nissan doesn't build an entry-level sports car, it needs to inject fun and youth into its product portfolio.

User avatar
float_6969
Moderator
Posts: 19553
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 1:55 pm
Car: CA18DET swapped 1995 Nissan 240sx (toy)
2003.5 Mazda Mazdaspeed Protege (lightly modded DD)
Location: Topeka, Kansas
Contact:

Re: Why Nissan NEEDS an Affordable RWD Sports Car

Postby float_6969 » Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:27 am

Another win post from Jesda. "Like"

User avatar
Rev_D21
Posts: 6913
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2003 9:49 pm
Car: 1986.5 D21 LB HD 2WD V6 5Speed
1991 D21 Reg 2WD Auto
1995 D21 Reg 2WD 5Spd
1996 D21 Reg 4WD 5Spd
2012 Versa 1.6S 5-Speed
Location: Somwhere in Western NY
Contact:

Re: Why Nissan NEEDS an Affordable RWD Sports Car

Postby Rev_D21 » Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:35 pm

So according to that video Nissan never intended to have the Leaf last longer than warranty? Is that what I heard?

User avatar
PapaSmurf2k3
Site Admin
Posts: 23283
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2002 3:20 pm
Car: 2017 Corvette, 2018 Focus ST, 2001 Miata turbo, 1993 240sx truck KA Turbo.
Location: Oxford, MS
Contact:

Re: Why Nissan NEEDS an Affordable RWD Sports Car

Postby PapaSmurf2k3 » Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:36 pm

Just the batteries, I guess.

superbad
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:17 pm
Car: 2014 alti 3.5SL
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Why Nissan NEEDS an Affordable RWD Sports Car

Postby superbad » Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:45 am

Just read the article. Couldn't agree with it more.
It's ashame Nissan put a halt on the s16. In 2-3 years my alti will be paid off and I will be looking for a sports car to put in my garage as a project. Would love a Z but with one kid and another on the way the S16 would be ideal and more realistic for me. I am/was a huge Nissan fan and even had my wife buy a rogue. But with the way things are going I might be going elsewhere.
Come on Nissan get your head out of your a$$es. You have a lot of people wanting a drivers car that is more affordable.

User avatar
Chaotic_Warlord
Posts: 4805
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:31 am
Car: Black 5 speed Swapped 1995 240sx
Location: Killadelphia PA
Contact:

Re: Why Nissan NEEDS an Affordable RWD Sports Car

Postby Chaotic_Warlord » Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:27 pm

As far as Nissan having a Scion counterpart, I don't see this happening unless the bring the Datsun name back life here in the states, which I'm sure every one of us would jump on, but thiz would mean pulling sales from the Parent company and from Infiniti, and that's not what they want. You can argue that it would instill brand loyalty, but people that buy scions don't really upgrade to Toyota or Lexus. Brand loyalty isn't really a thing people do anymore, most of the people I know buy cars not by brand, but by price. The only people I know that do stick to brand loyalty are those that are die hard Ford or Chevy owners, and most of them stick to one model, mostly trucks/SUV's or minivans.

User avatar
PapaSmurf2k3
Site Admin
Posts: 23283
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2002 3:20 pm
Car: 2017 Corvette, 2018 Focus ST, 2001 Miata turbo, 1993 240sx truck KA Turbo.
Location: Oxford, MS
Contact:

Re: Why Nissan NEEDS an Affordable RWD Sports Car

Postby PapaSmurf2k3 » Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:32 pm

If Toyota can do it with Scion, Toyota, Lexus, Nissan can do it with Datsun, Nissan, Infiniti.

They just have to do it right.

User avatar
Rev_D21
Posts: 6913
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2003 9:49 pm
Car: 1986.5 D21 LB HD 2WD V6 5Speed
1991 D21 Reg 2WD Auto
1995 D21 Reg 2WD 5Spd
1996 D21 Reg 4WD 5Spd
2012 Versa 1.6S 5-Speed
Location: Somwhere in Western NY
Contact:

Re: Why Nissan NEEDS an Affordable RWD Sports Car

Postby Rev_D21 » Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:34 pm

Chaotic_Warlord wrote:but thiz would mean pulling sales from the Parent company and from Infiniti, and that's not what they want.

This is what I don't get. Any sale is a good sale whether it be from Datsun, Nissan or Infiniti. If one model goes idle because a more exciting car is stealing the wind out of its sails only means that it should be retired for something more exciting. Trying to force us into a M35 when we want an S16 isn't going to sell more M35's just because they exist. The money all goes into the same pockets at the end of the day. Nissan will never make an Infiniti customer out of me but they could have a Datsun customer on their hands but since nothing along the lines of Datsun exists here in the US they get nothing...see how that works? Give the customer what they want and they will buy, you can't sell it if you don't have it on the shelf. There is a butt for every seat, Nissan should take that to heart.

User avatar
MinisterofDOOM
Moderator
Posts: 34283
Joined: Wed May 19, 2004 5:51 pm
Car: 1962 Corvair Monza
2005 Lincoln LS8
Former:
1995 Q45t
1993 Maxima GXE
1995 Ranger XL 2.3
1984 Coupe DeVille
Location: The middle of nowhere.

Re: Why Nissan NEEDS an Affordable RWD Sports Car

Postby MinisterofDOOM » Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:49 pm

Rev_D21 wrote:This is what I don't get. Any sale is a good sale whether it be from Datsun, Nissan or Infiniti.
While I agree with your sentiment in this instance, this is EXACTLY the mindset that nearly destroyed Ford and GM in the mid-90s.

post6045848.html

Nissan, though, needs to understand the difference between competing with yourself and buildling a diverse product lineup under distinct brands. I promise if you check the dictionary, "Diverse" is not defined as "as many droopy crossovers as you can imagine."

Also, Nissan needs to stow the hypocrisy before talking about lost sales. Ten years ago it was "Nissan and Infiniti must be separate things. We can't allow RWD Nissans because that's too close to Infiniti. We have to kill off the I because it's not a real Infiniti." Now it's "Pathfinder with a CVT?!?!? Slap a Mt. Fuji on that beastie and call it a JX! MORE SALES FOR EVERYONE!!!" Modern Nissan is like a blue hair in a Century: I don't give a damn WHICH lane you want to drive in, but please PICK ONE AND STAY THERE so everyone else can move on.

User avatar
PapaSmurf2k3
Site Admin
Posts: 23283
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2002 3:20 pm
Car: 2017 Corvette, 2018 Focus ST, 2001 Miata turbo, 1993 240sx truck KA Turbo.
Location: Oxford, MS
Contact:

Re: Why Nissan NEEDS an Affordable RWD Sports Car

Postby PapaSmurf2k3 » Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:53 pm

Again, I'd take 1 S16 over 10,000,000,000 cross cabriolets any day of the week, zombie apocalypse included.

...and I've got cold hard cash burning a hole in my pocket.

User avatar
Rev_D21
Posts: 6913
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2003 9:49 pm
Car: 1986.5 D21 LB HD 2WD V6 5Speed
1991 D21 Reg 2WD Auto
1995 D21 Reg 2WD 5Spd
1996 D21 Reg 4WD 5Spd
2012 Versa 1.6S 5-Speed
Location: Somwhere in Western NY
Contact:

Re: Why Nissan NEEDS an Affordable RWD Sports Car

Postby Rev_D21 » Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:15 pm

I wasn't trying to imply that all 3 lines sell the same thing or badge re-engineer as it is called. A 'butt for every seat' approach would have to have diversity (ie Datsun=sporty/practical, Nissan=Family/adventure, Infiniti=Up scale/sophistication/technology) and each one promote the mothership's ability to satisfy every walk of life with no redundancy between the lines. Hyundai does it every day form the Accent to the Equus and they sell each one of them, some they can't keep on the shelf. But yeh Nissan, stay away from what Ford and GM did back in the day!

User avatar
TurboFrog
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:28 pm
Car: 2012 Nissan Juke SV AWD

Re: Why Nissan NEEDS an Affordable RWD Sports Car

Postby TurboFrog » Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:39 pm

I really don't understand why there is so much hate for the Juke. I come here to feel included and talk about my Nissan but feel like everyone on this "NISSAN" forum is telling me by buying a Juke I have just flushed my money down the toilet or that I have crappy taste. I agree that the Juke is not a replacement for an S16 but for those of us that a 2-seat sports coupe is not practical, its a nice alternative for the money. Besides isn't there room for both?

Have any of you driven a Juke with the AWD set to AWD-V through the twisties and shifted the CVT(something else I'm tired of hearing complaints about) manually? It's quite capable and a lot of fun. Besides the All Mighty GT-R everyone longs for doesn't have a clutch pedal and manual transmission either. Most people under 35 don't know how to drive a manual and don't want to. Why don't they just put a small turbocharged 4 in a stripped 370Z, drop the price 6 grand, make it the base model and call it good.(sarcastically) Problem solved. Oh and in case you're wondering what age demographic I fall under I'm 30.

User avatar
alphapig
Posts: 1972
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:52 pm
Car: Nissan Altima Coupe 2.5S
Location: NorCal

Re: Why Nissan NEEDS an Affordable RWD Sports Car

Postby alphapig » Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:15 pm

TurboFrog wrote: Have any of you driven a Juke with the AWD set to AWD-V through the twisties and shifted the CVT(something else I'm tired of hearing complaints about) manually? It's quite capable and a lot of fun.
So is my 2.5 CVT, but it has a purpose. To get groceries, unfortunately.

Where the HELL does the Juke and Murano Cross Cabriolet fit though? How many SUV-things does Nissan need? Rogue and Murano are more than enough.

Nissan was simply mistaken that young people want quirky weird cars. Nissan is forcing a market, and completely ignoring one that actually exists (cheap RWD).
TurboFrog wrote:Besides isn't there room for both?
Clearly, Nissan doesn't think so. Otherwise, we'd be seeing a Nismo AWD Altima Coupe. Or the S16.

User avatar
TurboFrog
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:28 pm
Car: 2012 Nissan Juke SV AWD

Re: Why Nissan NEEDS an Affordable RWD Sports Car

Postby TurboFrog » Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:11 pm

I'm youngish and I wanted a quirky/weird car. Most cars are boring and look similar. Like the Camry but Toyota sells the crap out of them.The CrossCabriolet is the PT Cruiser convertible of Nissan, and no it doesn't fit. And why do they need all those different cars? Versa; Sentra; Altima; Maxima. I like your Altima Coupe btw. So the answer then is to make the Altima Coupe RWD and add a turbo onto the 2.5. Nismo Altima Coupe 2.5T RWD 6MT FTW.

User avatar
PapaSmurf2k3
Site Admin
Posts: 23283
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2002 3:20 pm
Car: 2017 Corvette, 2018 Focus ST, 2001 Miata turbo, 1993 240sx truck KA Turbo.
Location: Oxford, MS
Contact:

Re: Why Nissan NEEDS an Affordable RWD Sports Car

Postby PapaSmurf2k3 » Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:20 pm

Bottom line for me, if it doesn't have a clutch pedal, I'm not buying it. I've driven plenty of CVT "mock" manual trannies, manu-auto trannies, etc and haven't found nearly the joy of a clutch pedal in any of them.
Hell, I've even driven an R35 GTR and was longing for a clutch.
No joke, if someone said "here you go, choose the GTR or your turbo Miata to live with for the rest of your life. Pick either one for free", I'd choose the Miata hands down (6 speed manual) even though it cost me roughly 80 grand less. That's a major problem for Nissan. I have no desire to own their flagship vehicle.

Why not a 370 vert you say? To be honest, I read the threads here on NICO. There's people that have had their tops wear out after a pitiful 2 years, and Nissan doesn't want to replace them. Its pathetic. Nissan just can't compete with the companies that are offering true sports cars.

User avatar
WDRacing
Moderator
Posts: 23892
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2002 2:00 am
Car: 95 240SX, 99 BMW 540i, 01 Chevy Express, 14 Ford Escape
Location: MFFO
Contact:

Re: Why Nissan NEEDS an Affordable RWD Sports Car

Postby WDRacing » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:38 am

TurboFrog wrote:I really don't understand why there is so much hate for the Juke.
We're not hating on the Juke, we're saying it doesn't replace an affordable rwd sports car. A sports car doesn't scream, "hey look at how fucking weird I look!!!" A sports car is supposed to look like sex on wheels, the Juke does not say anything close to sexy. It says small SUV, so small in fact that the back seats are useless unless the driver is 5 foot nada.

The Juke appeals to some people, there's no doubt about that. But those people aren't the ones looking for a sports car...which is what this thread is about :dblthumb:

Until Nissan builds one, people are literally forced to go buy something from somewhere else. The people interested in a sports car usually enjoy the company of other like minded individuals, which in turn leads to joining other forums and or car clubs and developing a loyalty towards the brand they just purchased. By ignoring this market segment Nissan isn't just losing a sale they are killing their base of brand loyal customers and handicapping there future all at once.

Sad really.

User avatar
float_6969
Moderator
Posts: 19553
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 1:55 pm
Car: CA18DET swapped 1995 Nissan 240sx (toy)
2003.5 Mazda Mazdaspeed Protege (lightly modded DD)
Location: Topeka, Kansas
Contact:

Re: Why Nissan NEEDS an Affordable RWD Sports Car

Postby float_6969 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:05 am

WD is right. I love the Juke. If I wasn't saving up to build a house, I would have bought it instead of the '04 Mazdaspeed Protege I bought to replace my '92 civic.

That doesn't mean Nissan doesn't still need an affordable RWD, 5/6MT Coupe. Obviously they sell based on the popularity of the Toyobaru and the Genesis Coupe.

User avatar
AZhitman
Administrator
Posts: 70227
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2002 2:04 am
Car: 72 240Z RB25, 63 Bluebird RHD, 63 NL320, 67 WRL411, 67 SPL311, 68 510 SR, 77 620 SR20, 89 Pao, 97 D21, 98 S14, 11 LS460L, 12 Titan 4x4.
Location: Surprise, Arizona
Contact:

Re: Why Nissan NEEDS an Affordable RWD Sports Car

Postby AZhitman » Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:00 pm

The silence from Corporate speaks volumes.

Incidentally, I was at a conference for Internet Search professionals in Las Vegas this week, and at least three people (in an unrelated industry, mind you) came up to me and commented on this article... :)

User avatar
MinisterofDOOM
Moderator
Posts: 34283
Joined: Wed May 19, 2004 5:51 pm
Car: 1962 Corvair Monza
2005 Lincoln LS8
Former:
1995 Q45t
1993 Maxima GXE
1995 Ranger XL 2.3
1984 Coupe DeVille
Location: The middle of nowhere.

Re: Why Nissan NEEDS an Affordable RWD Sports Car

Postby MinisterofDOOM » Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:48 pm

WDRacing wrote:A sports car doesn't scream, "hey look at how f**king weird I look!!!"
I dunno about that...

Image

Image

Image

plus any number of supercars...

User avatar
AZhitman
Administrator
Posts: 70227
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2002 2:04 am
Car: 72 240Z RB25, 63 Bluebird RHD, 63 NL320, 67 WRL411, 67 SPL311, 68 510 SR, 77 620 SR20, 89 Pao, 97 D21, 98 S14, 11 LS460L, 12 Titan 4x4.
Location: Surprise, Arizona
Contact:

Re: Why Nissan NEEDS an Affordable RWD Sports Car

Postby AZhitman » Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:57 pm

I only see one that screams "effing weird", and anyone who bought one should have been sterilized.

Again, Nissan's silence tells me everything I need to know - and that's sad.

User avatar
alphapig
Posts: 1972
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:52 pm
Car: Nissan Altima Coupe 2.5S
Location: NorCal

Re: Why Nissan NEEDS an Affordable RWD Sports Car

Postby alphapig » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:17 pm

AZhitman wrote:I only see one that screams "effing weird"
I hope you mean the Cayman.

Otherwise I will be deeply hurt.

User avatar
asoomal
Posts: 2366
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:45 pm
Car: 2001 Subaru Impreza L 5MT (Daily)
1992 Nissan 240SX SE 5MT w/HICAS (Being restored)
Location: Canada

Re: Why Nissan NEEDS an Affordable RWD Sports Car

Postby asoomal » Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:53 pm

I think he means the MRS.

User avatar
AZhitman
Administrator
Posts: 70227
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2002 2:04 am
Car: 72 240Z RB25, 63 Bluebird RHD, 63 NL320, 67 WRL411, 67 SPL311, 68 510 SR, 77 620 SR20, 89 Pao, 97 D21, 98 S14, 11 LS460L, 12 Titan 4x4.
Location: Surprise, Arizona
Contact:

Re: Why Nissan NEEDS an Affordable RWD Sports Car

Postby AZhitman » Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:30 pm

It's in my Top-10 Ugliest Cars in Automotive History list.

I'll be at SEMA in a couple weeks... think I might talk to some of the other manufacturer reps and see what they have in store to compete with the BRZ. I'm eager to see how far behind we'll be by the time Nissan realizes that its Product Development Manager is badly out-of-touch.

User avatar
PapaSmurf2k3
Site Admin
Posts: 23283
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2002 3:20 pm
Car: 2017 Corvette, 2018 Focus ST, 2001 Miata turbo, 1993 240sx truck KA Turbo.
Location: Oxford, MS
Contact:

Re: Why Nissan NEEDS an Affordable RWD Sports Car

Postby PapaSmurf2k3 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:36 pm

I'm more interested in what other sports cars are coming out to tell you the truth. Nissan needs to fix their dealer network problems (and the lack of service after the sale) if they are to release something that competes. Unless of course it's an Infiniti, but then it probably wouldn't be cheap :)

User avatar
float_6969
Moderator
Posts: 19553
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 1:55 pm
Car: CA18DET swapped 1995 Nissan 240sx (toy)
2003.5 Mazda Mazdaspeed Protege (lightly modded DD)
Location: Topeka, Kansas
Contact:

Re: Why Nissan NEEDS an Affordable RWD Sports Car

Postby float_6969 » Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:36 am

Still though, how far behind the curve is Nissan now? Even if they read this article today, and the responses to this article that have been posted all over the internet, and said, "Oh s***, we missed the boat on this one!", how long does it take to get a car from the drawing board, the the dealership? Two years? I know in 2 years, I will have already spent the money that I would like to have spent on an S16, on the Toyobaru. In 2 years, the Genesis will be due for an update. It's been out that long already.

Nissan really screwed the pooch on this one. The more I talk about it, the more disappointed I feel. But sometimes the home team sucks. It doesn't mean you bail every time they have a bad season. I'm gonna stick with them, at least as a fan. But I won't be buying any of their new fuglyness until the get back to their roots. I don't want to encourage their "behavior" anymore than necessary.

User avatar
s14280zx
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 4:34 pm
Car: 95, 98 240sx, 79 280zx, 78 280z 2+2, 06 Xterra, 94 d21, 95 pathfinder

Re: Why Nissan NEEDS an Affordable RWD Sports Car

Postby s14280zx » Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:17 pm

I've been hoping for a cross between a 240z and an S15 silvia. Mix the classic hatchback lines of the 240z, with the knife edge style of the s15, redesign either a 2.4L 4cylinder (sr24det?), or a 2.4L dohc straight six ( rb24det or L24det?). That's what I'm hoping for. I'd call it a 240zsx. It's really a no brainer,Renault dumbasses! OOPs, did I write that out loud? LOL LOL :chuckle:


Return to “General Chat”