Why I wouldn't buy a Leaf

[nissangirl74]

As most of you know, I love my Insight. It's dorky and not the fastest thing on the road but it gets fantastic mileage, it's paid for, and the A/C is ice cold. When Nissan first announced plans for the Leaf, I seriously considered one until reality set in. Cost and charge range.

Consider this: The bottom price for the Leaf is $21,300. At today's fuel cost ($3.70/gallon), I could buy 5,756 gallons of fuel. That much fuel would last me another 345,405 miles in the Insight.

I know we basically had this same conversation when the Leaf first came out. (Too lazy to look up the link). The sad part is that not many improvements have been made to entice people to buy. The infrastructure to support these cars isn't good enough YET to make customers comfortable enough to invest. I can't drive to Tucson on one charge, or Sedona, or Prescott. Hell, I can't even drive to the airport and back. It's just not practical for me. There are four charging stations at the school I go to. They are on the back of the parking lot on a huge hill. Guess what I have NEVER seen??

I don't know guys. As much as I like the idea and the concept, I can't help but wonder if the Leaf will end up being a fluke. People love the Hybrid idea but purely electric (seems to) scaresthem to death. Your thoughts?


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-2 ... lters.html

[MinisterofDOOM]

This problem doesn't just apply to full electrics. It applies to ANY economical new car purchase. The problem is the mindset. People think "I'll buy this efficient car and save loads of money." Which is backward. It should be looked at as a matter of WHEN a new car purchase is needed, there are more fuel efficient or cheaper to operate options available. Buying a new car will never be cheaper than continuing to fuel an already-paid-for car. But if you find yourself in the market for a new car, you now have more choices.

[nissangirl74]

It amazes me how people say they can't afford a $.25 increase in fuel per gallon for a car that's paid for, so they go out and buy a brand new car.

[AZhitman]

It's cheaper (in the long run) to buy a $3500 Corolla / Civic / Sentra that gets 35-40mpg (and fix anything that goes wrong) than to buy ANY new car with payments.

People will say, "But what if it breaks down? I can't afford to fix it!"

Ok, stupid, pull up a chair - School's in. Let's say you buy the CHEAPEST new car on the market. After your $2500 raping in the finance department for down / tax / title / license / doc fees / registration, you settle into $199/mo payments.

That's $4900 the first year. Can you think of ANYTHING on a Corolla that costs $4900 to fix? Nope. Hell, you could donate it to charity and buy ANOTHER one for that amount, and have a fat tax deduction.

That argument is invalid.

Other people will say, "I don't want to buy someone else's problems." Wow.

The first 3 months of new car ownership involves a few trips to the dealer to straighten out little details - it's inevitable. They don't cover your fuel expense or time off work - that's your problem (even if the car is faulty). You inspect a used car thoroughly before purchase. If you can't find issues, take it to a mechanic.

That argument is invalid.

My favorite: "I don't have $4K to plunk down on a used car." Double-wow.

So, you can go drop $2500 on Day One of your new car purchase, agree to another $8000 in debt, plus another $2000 in interest payments, PLUS $300+ a year for registration, but you can't save up enough to buy an efficient, used commuter car?

After 3 years, your new car is worth - you guessed it - $5k - $6k, and some really smart person will be happy to buy it from you (cash) and drive off with a smile, thanking you for eating the depreciation. You're brilliant.

Some people need to be duct-taped to a chair and force-fed a constant stream of Dave Ramsey.

[Rev_D21]

I traded my gas-guzzling v6 Frontier towards my 2012 Versa. The dealer give me $800 more than I owed on it. The Versa averages 33 MPG and I do all highway miles. The fuel savings is paying for the car. I am actually making money by owning this car compared to what I was driving. And the Frontier had some serious issues that needed attention sooner rather than later. I get around 300+/- miles per tank with a 10.4 gallon tank so even is gas hits $5/gal I will only be out $50/week instead of the $120/week I was paying to fuel up the Frontier @#3.50/gal back in January. The deal just made sense. Plus with most of the factory warranty still available it was a no-brainer. I didn't want to spend any money fixing up a commuter, I only want to free up money to spend on my other fun vehicles. In most circumstances buying a new car before fixing the old one is a waste but in my case the savings was two-fold.

[Bubba1]

I would also be afraid to buy an old used Leaf, unless it had brand new OEM batteries. And that seems rather unlikely because what Leaf owner is going to spend thousands on new batteries, only turn to around and sell the dang thing for less than what he just spent on the batteries.

[Loki]

It amazes me how people say they can't afford a $.25 increase in fuel per gallon for a car that's paid for, so they go out and buy a brand new car.

I've known plenty of folks that think like this. When my '94 240SX was giving me a little trouble (think it turned out to be a bad injector) they told me I should ditch it and buy a new car. They didn't understand that that would mean spending between $5-10k just to avoid around $2500 in maintenance over the next few years, even though the new car would have unknown maintenance needs. People don't think very clearly when they've been supported by mommy and daddy for too long, especially if they have no real concept of debt.

[Kompresshun]

I traded my gas-guzzling v6 Frontier towards my 2012 Versa. The dealer give me $800 more than I owed on it. The Versa averages 33 MPG and I do all highway miles. The fuel savings is paying for the car. I am actually making money by owning this car compared to what I was driving. And the Frontier had some serious issues that needed attention sooner rather than later. I get around 300+/- miles per tank with a 10.4 gallon tank so even is gas hits $5/gal I will only be out $50/week instead of the $120/week I was paying to fuel up the Frontier @#3.50/gal back in January. The deal just made sense. Plus with most of the factory warranty still available it was a no-brainer. I didn't want to spend any money fixing up a commuter, I only want to free up money to spend on my other fun vehicles. In most circumstances buying a new car before fixing the old one is a waste but in my case the savings was two-fold.

We're in a similar situation and while I normally agree wholeheartedly with Greg's point of view, but there are some cases where it's just not worth holding on to a gas guzzler. Do we HAVE to sell our Jeep? No, absolutely not. If we trade it in on a smaller vehicle though, we'll save $2,000+ per year in fuel. Yeah, we could pay of the Jeep sooner and keep it, but guess what? If we kept it, we still wouldn't drive it because it drinks fuel like a blown muscle car. 12mpg is not acceptable, even if it is paid for, when the vehicle is a daily driver. If I had known it would get 12mpg going in, I would've never bought it anyways. Even back then, 16mpg city was about as low as I would consider going.

Now, we sat down and did the math to make sure all of it would be worthwhile. We basically came to the conclusion that whatever vehicle we get has to get over 20mpg city and 30mpg or more on the highway to make it worth the trouble. We could save money on fuel in about anything that's even a little smaller, but it's not worth all of the hassle unless we can save a considerable amount. After doing the math though, it just makes sense to drop the Jeep and get something smaller.

[AZhitman]

That's a big difference, though, Chris. If you sell the Heep for $6K and turn around and pay cash for a Altima, you;ll be to the good financially.

Selling it, just to put that money down on a new car (just to see it depreciate that much the next day) is a money suck.

[Ozzie]

Ok. Now redo your math, using THIS Nissan Leaf.

Truly amazing

LOOK AT THE MASSIVE SAVINGS THEY ARE OFFERING!!

Now please excuse me while I show Nissan Australia how to hang themselves with a short rope.... Oh wait.

[NolimitZ32]

Hahaha Ozzie, that's one thing I still cant get over, the cars here are so ridiculously overpriced, its unreal. I work FIFO 3/1 and after doing the math I decided against buying a car, in 4 years (the duration of my contract and visa) if I rent an A4 or similar vehicle for 1 week out of the month that I am not on site, I end up spending around $4000 per year, and driving a nice, new car. for me to have bought a decent vehicle in Perth I would've had to spend upwards of $12k on the car, plus ~1000 per year on insurance (there's no way I'm rolling around on minimum the way WA drivers behave), plus ~$1000 per year on rego, plus ~$1000 - $2000 on maintenance and repair. Yeah no thanks!

[JTR32gtst]

I was driving around used Frontiers that were paid for while we paid off our only new vehicle, at the time a 2007 Xterra. We bought it new in 2007 and paid it off a couple years early by doubling up payments. After that, I traded in my Frontier for a brand new Titan. Between what they took off and my trade, I was able to get a brand new Pro4x leather for 31 after T, T, and L. That is 15K less than list. It is a gas hog, but I have a company vehicle provided by the place I work for and a company gas card, so my Titan only fills up once every 2 weeks, and that is with it being a gas hog. If it was a DD, I would not have a Titan, but rather a 4 cyl Frontier.

I just cannot wrap head around electric vehicles right now.

[Bubba1]

I just cannot wrap head around electric vehicles right now.

You're not alone. Electric-only vehicles like the Leaf are going to continue to be niche vehicles for awhile, due to stuff like the limited range of the current generation of batteries and inadequate charging station infrastructure. Right now electric is best for folks with relatively short commutes without major deviations in their routes, who live in temperate climates, AND with access to electricity preferably at both origin and destination. It's clearly not for everyone.

[elwesso]

you're right, electric vehicles really aren't worth it, YET. They make a lot of sense for someone who has (2) cars and mostly does shorter commutes. For instance, my dad drives about 10 miles round trip, so even with some other trips in town he'd easily be able to make it to work and back without any issue. On the flip side, drive about 42 miles one-way, so I'd be lucky to make it to work.

Right now the way the infrastructure is, plug in hybrids make the most sense. It allows you still the freedom to go long distances, but you can still go short distances and use essentially no gasoline. I wonder if there's any way to convert "standard" hybrids like the prius or insight to plug-in hybrids.

I think what's holding this whole situation back is battery technology. Up until now, light weight, high capacity batteries really haven't been in large demand.

Greg said it the best, though. IMO when you "justify" a new hybrid, you have to neglect the cost of the vehicle because the extra cost of even just buying a new vehicle (hybrid or not) offsets any fuel savings over the course of a reasonable amount of time (3 years or so)..

[AZhitman]

I wonder if there's any way to convert "standard" hybrids like the prius or insight to plug-in hybrids.

Our Insight can be converted to use a grid charger - but it makes little sense. It charges through regen, which is, essentially, free. Electricity (although cheap) costs more per kwh than the minuscule fuel penalty of regenerative charging.

[MinisterofDOOM]

I have a 5 mile round-trip commute right now, so an electric could actually work for driving to work and back. But I'd have to have a lot of money to burn and an extra parking spot to get the point where I'm buying such specifically-purposed cars.

To me, a "2nd car" shouldn't be practical. It should be nonsense. You buy a Viper as a 2nd car. Not a Leaf.

Still, I'm glad SOMEONE is buying them, because we need to advance the tech or it'll never reach the point where it becomes valid as anything but a super-practical 2nd car.

[skydragoness]

It amazes me how people say they can't afford a $.25 increase in fuel per gallon for a car that's paid for, so they go out and buy a brand new car.

I think it's just an excuse to cover up the fact they are an impulse buyer so claiming it's because of 'the price of fuel' just makes them sound ...prudent??

That being said, I wish they were flying off the lots and that charging stations were being put in everywhere but that's wishful thinking that the big car companies/fuel companies and the government would let happen. The former stand to lose money if that happened.

I saw a Tesla sedan today...it was gorgeous.

[Jesda]

I've seen three Nissan Leaves on the road. One was as I was pulling out of my street on to the parkway. The guy behind the wheel was resting his head on his fist and looked painfully bored and unhappy.

The second one was in Columbia MO. Some young girls were driving it at a strip mall.

The third was also in Columbia MO, being hauled away on a flatbed, likely due to a dead battery.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

To me, a "2nd car" shouldn't be practical. It should be nonsense. You buy a Viper as a 2nd car. Not a Leaf.

Tesla seems to strike a nice balance there. Out of everyone making electric cars, I have the highest hopes with them. The model S is gorgeous, and the Roadster was way ahead of it's time. A blueprint for the future almost.

[Looneybomber]

hybrids and electric vehicles are still new in the life cycle of the technology. Give it another decade and things will become more efficient. But, it's extremely hard to replace the convenience and available power from a gallon of gasoline...but ICE engines have been around for what, a century? Plenty of time to increase efficiency. In my degree (electrical engineering), I am headed one of two way: 1) alternative energies - improving green techs or 2) mass destruction/death via nuclear weapons development (Honeywell). Either way, I am not a fan of hybrids or electric vehicles right now.