Why do people want a hybrid so badly?

[7speed]

I know I'm opening an oil drum of worms here, but honestly, why do people automatically assume that a hybrid delivering 55 mpg (or whatever), or an electric car they plug in is better for the environment than a fuel efficient combustion engine?

I just don't get it. Do these people not realize that the elements used in most rechargable batteries are more precious than gold? Do they think that everyone should drive a hybrid, driving the cost of already expensive metals up?

Do they not think about where the energy used to charge their batteries comes from? Do they think that energy produced from a nuclear plant or coal fired plant is 'greener' than the energy used to refine oil?

Personally, if I were looking for a 'greener' vehicle, I'd be FAR more tempted by one of VWs BlueMotion diesels than an electric/hybrid option.

Now, I suppose I should qualify my rant by saying that I have not done extensive research on the subject, am by no means an expert, and am basing my opinion on only a dozen or so articles on the subject, and picking the points that satisfy my analytical brain.

But honestly, I just don't get people's love affair for hybrids. If you really want to go green, buy a bike.

Okay. Now I feel better.

/rant]

[fjwagner]

because they are the flavour of the month. I would not want to pay the premium for a hybrid whatsoever. The demand for hybrids has really sunk in recent months as oil prices have come down. Oil won't stay this low, but unlikely to see a speculative run-up like last summer for quite some time.

Now we can sit back and watch the fun.

[Andrews Chalmers]

I know I'm opening an oil drum of worms here, but honestly, why do people automatically assume that a hybrid delivering 55 mpg (or whatever), or an electric car they plug in is better for the environment than a fuel efficient combustion engine?

Depending on the efficiency of the generation/grid system - charging the vehicle at night during low usage hours may be environmentally beneficial (since nuclear reactors produce surplus power anyway). Might as well use the energy.

Quote »I just don't get it. Do these people not realize that the elements used in most rechargable batteries are more precious than gold? Do they think that everyone should drive a hybrid, driving the cost of already expensive metals up? [/quote]Nickel? Lithium? Are they that expensive? Compared to a catalytic onverter with platinum?

Quote »Do they not think about where the energy used to charge their batteries comes from? Do they think that energy produced from a nuclear plant or coal fired plant is 'greener' than the energy used to refine oil?[/quote]Nuclear plant's emission is water vapor. Oil refinery burns fossil fuel to generate heat to separate the hydrocarbon vapors - which is then burned in a relatively inefficient heat engine.

One can debate over the additional energy costs over producing batteries - but again... a hybrid system increases the efficiency by reducing heat loss (whether braking or increased engine use). I have no problems with wealthy folks spending time and $ on fuel cell technology or electric cars - I would have been riding the bicycle or a horse 80 years ago if wealthy people didn't support the industry.

Quote »Personally, if I were looking for a 'greener' vehicle, I'd be FAR more tempted by one of VWs BlueMotion diesels than an electric/hybrid option.[/quote]I agree - they are nice low emission high mpg vehicles... but is the increased cost of diesel worth it?

[Red Devil]

I personally think hybrids are a stopgap. We need to find a way to make electric vehicles a valid option. The problem is we're limited to driving X miles and then having to charge the car for X hours. I don't want to go on a 400 mile trip and have to stop 200 miles into it and charge a battery for 8 hours.

The best option to maintain freedom of mobility and still be more enviromentally friendly are H2 fuel cell vehicles. Take the FCX Clarity. It uses H2 to create electricity for an electric motor which drives the car. It still allows you to drive, fill up and drive some more.

[fjwagner]

I personally think hybrids are a stopgap. We need to find a way to make electric vehicles a valid option. The problem is we're limited to driving X miles and then having to charge the car for X hours. I don't want to go on a 400 mile trip and have to stop 200 miles into it and charge a battery for 8 hours.

The best option to maintain freedom of mobility and still be more enviromentally friendly are H2 fuel cell vehicles. Take the FCX Clarity. It uses H2 to create electricity for an electric motor which drives the car. It still allows you to drive, fill up and drive some more.

those H2 stations are spring up on every corner in every major city!!!

[VersaMG08]

I think the best solution is to combine hydrogen technology with the hybrid engine. You have best of both worlds without the use of oil based fossil fuels once oil reserves are all used up. That would be for a while probably not until 2050+ or so.

Car manufacturing companies should develop a battery something better than current technology such as lithium that is universal for many vehicles. Once it gets old and charges are weak, you can easily replace it, sort of like changing out the battery in the engine compartment.

[fjwagner]

ICar manufacturing companies should develop a battery something better than current technology such as lithium that is universal for many vehicles. Once it gets old and charges are weak, you can easily replace it, sort of like changing out the battery in the engine compartment.

so, what is the environmental impact of all those battery disposals. Need to discuss life cycle rather than immediate mpg. ExxonMobil has developed a new film to separate lithium layers that does extend battery life. A start at least, but a long way away from anything but niche.

[VersaMG08]

I'm sure MPG will improve much better compared to current MPG standard for most econoboxes. There has to be a way to recycle this stuff without causing impact on the environment, like biodegradable (i'm not a greenie).

I watched an episode on the Science Channel about this battery a guy developed that would replace the lithium battery. Can't remember the name of the program. I'll definitely do some more research on it.

[Andrews Chalmers]

so, what is the environmental impact of all those battery disposals. Need to discuss life cycle rather than immediate mpg. ExxonMobil has developed a new film to separate lithium layers that does extend battery life. A start at least, but a long way away from anything but niche.

In the long term - we might see high performance capacitors in fuel-cell cars instead of batteries. Reduced economic impact, reduced weight... in exchange for regenerative braking & coasting storage.

[VersaMG08]

I like this entire hybrid technology they're coming out with lately from Toyota and Honda. I wish they would make the appearance of their cars not so tacky looking. The new Insignt looks awkward yet cool at the same time. Are they trying to cater to the guinea pigs first?

[BBISHOPPCM]

There is some great technology already available to produce gasoline powered vehicles that exceed 100 MPG. Problem is, noone would buy them...

Hell, the $7,000 Geo Metro was capable of 50 MPG. The real problem is automakers don't see a value in producing low-powered, small automobiles in the US, because many americans associate these types of vehicles with "economy," "budget," and "low-class." This is a huge problem that may take a few generations to solve, and more "econoboxes" like the Versa, or the Mazda 3. Americans seem to be stuck in "Bigger is Better" mentality.

The Prius has been so successful due to its "snob appeal," a direct link to the high MSRP. The Prius is a great car, I just don't feel it lives up to its hype. 40 MPG for... HOW MUCH???!?. My 1999 Nissan Sentra w/ automatic trans, A/C, and a slew of factory options was good for not less than 33 MPG, but not more than 39 MPG. That was truly a great car for many reasons. Was it slow? sure! Comfortable? (I thought it was). This car was slightly smaller than the Versa, more aerodynamic, and had a 1.6l engine.

[VersaMG08]

That's what I don't understand about SUV owners. There are plenty of them around here and their attitude is horrifying. They need to get out of the mentality of bigger is better and think of being more fuel efficient. If they didn't produce a lot of kids, they wouldn't need a SUV.

Thinking ahead with better technology sort of like Japan and other countries is the way to go. Econoboxes are not low class anymore, some of us pay 15k to 20k just for a fully loaded subcompact car these days. I don't know, but I'm ready to move out of this state. I'm done ranting.

[lovesaga]

That's what I don't understand about SUV owners. There are plenty of them around here and their attitude is horrifying. They need to get out of the mentality of bigger is better and think of being more fuel efficient. If they didn't produce a lot of kids, they wouldn't need a SUV.

Thinking ahead with better technology sort of like Japan and other countries is the way to go. Econoboxes are not low class anymore, some of us pay 15k to 20k just for a fully loaded subcompact car these days. I don't know, but I'm ready to move out of this state. I'm done ranting.

My 2 cents to all of this.First their is and has been the technology for yearsfor better MPG.1 GM made an electric vehicle people loved then destroyed cause legistlation was removed that had forced them to produce it It is explained in a Documentary Why they killed the Electric Car look it up

2 Diesels in europes have been getting great gas mileage for many decades 20-60 mpg for so many reasons diesels have failed to succeed in the US bad PR and stigma from being loud, noisy, and polluting.

3 Fuel Cell Cars have been on special leases for a couple of years nowif they wanted to refueling stations could be made to mass produce and the cost could be sold to the customer cause the government could give you a tax break

4 Compressed Air, Natural Gas, Bio Diesel, etc.

A bunch of fail has stopped this stuff from coming to tutition.

Our market being driven by the consumer hasn't demanded these hard enough

Congress has not really been pushed into action

The Big 4 GM Ford Chrslyer Volkswagen have pleaded that all these fuel efficient vehicles would destroy them

Guess what there lack of them is causing them to fail

and Lobbyists and Special Interest Groups

This is America Mile High Versa

You can't stop telling people to have kids, but we could have improved metro transportation and our inefficient roadways. It would be more conservative with mileage.

I will agree many Americans have bad attitudes.

The reason why Japan's technology would fail here is the size of our country and the money that would cost here.

I'm not real sure about hybrids.

But I would hope American ingenuity could fix bad mileage problems for large suvs.

[They Call Me Whatshisname]

Everyone should just drive motorcycles. Sure mortality rates would be really high, but that would solve overpopulation.

[MinisterofDOOM]

I've ranted on the topic of gas/electric hybrids before. I don't understand their appeal. Their fuel milage improvements are negligible considering the increased costs. Hybrid systems weigh a lot, and take up space.

But the main reason hybrids are stupid is that they're exactly BACKWARD. They get good milage in town and poorer milage on the highway. This is great for tightly-packed european and Japanese regions. But the US is Highway Land. most of our driving is on highways. Where hybrids see equivalent OR POORER fuel economy than traditional gas cars.

The only hybrids that make sense are the kind in which the internal combustion engine (be it gas or diesel) never actually drives the wheels, but simply provides on-the-go recharging for batteries, which power electric motors that do 100% of propulsion work.

The latest issue of Car and Driver has a great article on UPS's new prototype internal combustion/hydraulic hybrid trucks which use the diesel engine powers a hydraulic pump which feeds energy to dual hydraulic reservoirs and also drives a hydraulic motor. There's no direct mechanical connection of the diesel motor to the wheels, just the hydraulic connection. The trucks can apparently travel about a mile at low speeds without needing the diesel engine at all, which is fantastic for distribution center travel as well as delivery in towns.

[Bubs daddy]

I'm not convinced that the hybrid will be around for the long run. Nor do I like the complexity and extra cost. All those batteries need nickel, zinc, copper require strip mining hundreds of acres of land. Just not a fan of hybrids.

I'll admit, the Pious Prius makes me roll my eyes. They got their "coexist" and other feel good stickers slathered out back. Love sitting at a light looking down on one of those from my Silverado.

Diesel powered engines seem like a good alternative to the present high mileage cars. Only time will tell with the electric vehicles.

And like other documentaries recently, "Why they killed the electric car" was hardly unbiased. People didn't love that car. No one wanted that electric car because it was stratospherically priced, had a very small range, and was impractical.

[fjwagner]

I'm not convinced that the hybrid will be around for the long run. Nor do I like the complexity and extra cost. All those batteries need nickel, zinc, copper require strip mining hundreds of acres of land. Just not a fan of hybrids.

I'll admit, the Pious Prius makes me roll my eyes. They got their "coexist" and other feel good stickers slathered out back. Love sitting at a light looking down on one of those from my Silverado.

Diesel powered engines seem like a good alternative to the present high mileage cars. Only time will tell with the electric vehicles.

And like other documentaries recently, "Why they killed the electric car" was hardly unbiased. People didn't love that car. No one wanted that electric car because it was stratospherically priced, had a very small range, and was impractical.

I am going to buy you a beer next time I am in Phoenix! Loved your Pious Prious paragraph. Especially the "coexist" comment. I can now go to work this morning knowing there is someone else out there that has it right. Fred

[keanucosmo]

And like other documentaries recently, "Why they killed the electric car" was hardly unbiased. People didn't love that car. No one wanted that electric car because it was stratospherically priced, had a very small range, and was impractical.

Bubs, I have to disagree. I had the pleasure of leasing an EV1 for a year and a half until GM Ended the leases early. Every one I know who leased an EV1 (At least 40 people) begged GM to let them buy it. It was my sole transportation during that year and a half. The lowest range was 55 miles in the dead of winter the second year I had it. The best was just over 100 miles, but usually 75-85 miles. I had a charger installed at my house but rarely used it. I usually charged the car at work or when I went shopping. Absolutely 0 maintenance during that time.

It was impractical to take on a long trip, but great for daily driving. This is how I use my Versa, so if a total electric alternative was available I would consider it.

Cost is an issue, but that should change as technology advances and economies of scale lower cost. The biggest cost is the battery pack. Even if the pack cost $10,000, it would be reasonable if it had a lifespan of at least 6 years. Lets say I have a gasoline powered car that gets 32 mpg and I drive it 25,000 miles a year. at $3.00 per gallon my fuel cost is $14,062 for 6 years. At $4.00 per gallon my cost is $18,750. If my electric bill for charging the car is $50 per month, my 6 year fuel cost would be $13,600

[VersaMG08]

I agree too. I can't stand the 'coexist' and 'obama' bumper stickers, see enough of them around here. Too much of the feel good BS is going around lately and it's pissing me off. Why can't we have differences of opinions, this is the US correct?

[Ginsu]

If they made a car that ran off of Hot Cheetos, it wouldn't be long before Hot Cheetos crept up to $4/bag. It happened in the 1980s with natural gas after everyone up here converted their furnaces thinking they could heat their houses cheaply, its happening right now with diesel, and if the Chevy Volt starts an electric car revolution, then it will happen to your electric bill too. Cheap transportation is a pipe dream so long as humans and capitalism simultaneously exist. Whatever the fuel source, just try to use less than everybody else.

[Rockhound]

I agree too. I can't stand the 'coexist' and 'obama' bumper stickers, see enough of them around here. Too much of the feel good BS is going around lately and it's pissing me off. Why can't we have differences of opinions, this is the US correct?

I certainly don't have either type of bumper sticker (nor will I ever put any bumper sticker on my cars) but I can't help but comment on the (unintended) irony of your post.

I'm not terribly well informed as to the 'Coexist' agenda, but I think the premise is that people of different faiths should quit fighting and just 'get along'. Sappy, yes, (and impossible) but it would seem that it's encouraging differing opinions and diversity - but someone feel free to chime in and correct me. Of course all of this with a capitalist bent, I'm sure.

Also, since politics were brought up, I find it funny that you didn't pick up on the 'if you're not for us, you're against us' vibe that permeated the last presidency. I'm not going to make a political affiliation post, just saying that your whole comment is unintentionally contradictory.

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As for hybrids, I agree with the overall sentiment that they're not smart based on cost, and potentially present their own pesky envronmental 'footprint' issues.

I don't necessarily agree with the whole "hybrid drivers are elitest idiots" opinion, though. Sure, some folks bought a hybrid only as a 'statement' vehicle. But I happen to have an acquaintance that drives a Prius, and he's a fairly unassuming, humble dude. He knew going into it that it would be cheaper to buy a ICE-powered subcompact, but was impressed with the technology. Not everyone is obsessed with sporting driving dynamics (this is a Versa board, afterall, so perhaps I'm preaching to the choir).

I might be in the minority here, but I'm quite impressed with Toyota's success with their hybrid powertrain. While Bob Lutz and co. at GM laughed at hybrids and called them 'niche' vehicles, Toyota made serious market inroads. Now, GM is caught with their pants down, only offering cheapo 'mild' hybrids that offer even less economy benefit for the dollar, and the Volt is still just vaporware - only needing a few more bailouts to see the light of day, I suppose.

And, it would appear Ginsu has hit the proverbial nail on the head in his post, since whatever fuel source we switch to will witness a spike in price due to a spike in demand.

[VersaMG08]

The statement I made was contradictory, but I just think the whole 'coexist' thing is feel good propaganda. I'm not fond of it. Enough of political talk.

Back on topic, I hope hybrid technology either advances in the near future so what we have out now gets cheaper and can be more mainstream.

[Shad0wXCalibur]

Haha. The pious Prius thing is actually true. About a year ago, I had some guy with a Prius ask me how much I got with my Neon. I said 26-28 city/32-34 highway. He said "oooh. I get 45!" I should have said but my car costed $1500 and has been driven for 2 years at 20k miles a year. (3 years now). I think I got a lot more car for my money than he did . Or at least I think 50-60k miles driven so far out of a $1500 car is damn good.

[srellim234]

A lot of the Prius drivers around here are just buying them as the "trendy" thing to do or to have the HOV lane sticker on them to avoid carpooling. They don't have the environment in mind at all.

I like the concept being explored in electric cars. They're working on a program where you buy the car but you don't own the batteries. Pull into a battery/gas station and swap out the battery for a freshly charged one. If they can standardize the batteries between cars and get the "swap time" down to about 10 minutes it might be a pretty good system to convert to.

If they can get such a program working AND you can plug in the car when you're home it might be a pretty good system. Plug it in for around town and quickly swap out when on longer trips.

[lordthygod]

My bet is on this http://www.hydrorunner.com/products.htmlmore power, 1/10th the emissions, extreme mpg increase