sorry to start a new thread but I kind of want to get to the bottom of this rather quickly as I just ordered a whole new set of front & rear brakes with pads and ss lines....but was told today that my rotors are on back order so I still have time to return them for something different. I ordered the PowerSlot rotors with Axxiss Metal Masters as per Q45tech's suggestion.
From Everything Infiniti's website...the front rotors on an active Q cost about $35 more....why?
ROTOR, Q45, w/o Active Suspension 95-96 $81.21
ROTOR, Q45, w/Active Suspension 95-96 $117.92
I don't understand the difference in front rotors but the pads and rear rotors are the same price....what gives? Maybe Q45tech holds the secret answer?
http://www.trademotion.com/par...gid=1
Modified by rsiwicki at 10:42 PM 1/11/2005
Modified by rsiwicki at 10:43 PM 1/11/2005
Why do front rotors for the active vs. base Q45 cost more?
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PoorManQ45
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Re: Why do front rotors for the active vs. base Q45 cost more? (rsiwicki)
They may be slightly thicker or something.
Maybe they are made of a slightly different alloy that can better handle the increased weight from the active suspension components.
Or maybe it's just another way for Nissan/infiniti to make more money
Maybe they are made of a slightly different alloy that can better handle the increased weight from the active suspension components.
Or maybe it's just another way for Nissan/infiniti to make more money
Re: Why do front rotors for the active vs. base Q45 cost more? (rsiwicki)
Rob,
1. The front stabilizer bar on an active Q in 28mm as compared to the 29mm bar on a conventional Q.2. The tension rod diameter is the same for both active and conventional Q's at 20mm.3. The wheel alignment toe-in A-B on a conventional Q is 0 to 2mm as compared to -1 to 1 on an active Q and the total angle 28 is 0 to 10 degrees on a conventional Q as compared to -5 to 5 degrees on an active Q.4. The front height on a conventional Q is 705mm and the rear height is 696mm as compared to an active Q front height at 687mm with the engine runnig(690mm wth engine stopped) and a rear height of 667mm with the engine running( 672mm wth engine stopped). This with the active Q in "normal" position. 5. The piston rod diameter of the shock absorber for a conventional Q is 12.5mm as compared to 25mm on an active Q.6. The active Q is heavier then a non-active Q.
There's more stuff in the FSM that show some differences But I think the weight and bulk of active parts have something to do it. Of course I'm just a redhead panting over this Steel brake line, Slotted Rottors etc... who has resorted to parting out a g20 to pay for my Q stuff!!
red
1. The front stabilizer bar on an active Q in 28mm as compared to the 29mm bar on a conventional Q.2. The tension rod diameter is the same for both active and conventional Q's at 20mm.3. The wheel alignment toe-in A-B on a conventional Q is 0 to 2mm as compared to -1 to 1 on an active Q and the total angle 28 is 0 to 10 degrees on a conventional Q as compared to -5 to 5 degrees on an active Q.4. The front height on a conventional Q is 705mm and the rear height is 696mm as compared to an active Q front height at 687mm with the engine runnig(690mm wth engine stopped) and a rear height of 667mm with the engine running( 672mm wth engine stopped). This with the active Q in "normal" position. 5. The piston rod diameter of the shock absorber for a conventional Q is 12.5mm as compared to 25mm on an active Q.6. The active Q is heavier then a non-active Q.
There's more stuff in the FSM that show some differences But I think the weight and bulk of active parts have something to do it. Of course I'm just a redhead panting over this Steel brake line, Slotted Rottors etc... who has resorted to parting out a g20 to pay for my Q stuff!!
red
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Q45tech
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1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
Re: (Q451990)
Power Slot's ? I only said I used Power Stop Rotors [to help vent the water steam in rainy stops]. The 90-96Q and J30 use the same diameter and thickness rotors on the front ........28mm thick with the ratio of metal to air space [vents] to metal being approximately equal......9.3, 9.3, 9.3 mm.
Since the inside surface ALWAYS warps more and quicker than the outside, obviously 9.3mm is not thick enough for the cast-iron formulation used and the heat..............but a 32 mm is only 14% thicker [assuming same ratio], however the air space is not expanded [on say an LS430] so the metal is actually 20% thicker!
On other vehicles I have seen 28mm rotors with 10.5mm, 7mm, 10.5mm.
My point is a brake rotor engineer could probably do better now understanding what the long term average warp mode is........trade off somethings.
http://www.dba.com.au/news/pr020521.asp
From brand new to worn out a 28mm rotor [9.3333mm metal edge] loses 8.333/9.333=10.7% of its outer thickness on each surface at least under the pad swept area.
8.7-9.3 kg [19.0-20.5 lbs] is the usual rotor weight depending on manufacturer.
"One brake manufacturer showed us a cutaway of an offshore "economy" rotor for a particular vehicle that had 32 ribs. The OEM rotor, by comparison, had 37 ribs and provided up to eight percent better cooling than the economy rotor when tested in the laboratory. And because the OEM rib design ran cooler, pad life was 28 percent longer than the economy rotor.
Another aftermarket brake manufacturer showed us test results that proved their rib design improves cooling and makes their rotor three times quieter than a competitive rotor. The recorded sound levels showed noise as high as 85 decibels screaming out of the Brand X economy rotor compared to only 40 to 50 decibels from their own "premium" quality rotor.
........http://www.babcox.com/editorial/bf/bf10312.htm
Since the inside surface ALWAYS warps more and quicker than the outside, obviously 9.3mm is not thick enough for the cast-iron formulation used and the heat..............but a 32 mm is only 14% thicker [assuming same ratio], however the air space is not expanded [on say an LS430] so the metal is actually 20% thicker!
On other vehicles I have seen 28mm rotors with 10.5mm, 7mm, 10.5mm.
My point is a brake rotor engineer could probably do better now understanding what the long term average warp mode is........trade off somethings.
http://www.dba.com.au/news/pr020521.asp
From brand new to worn out a 28mm rotor [9.3333mm metal edge] loses 8.333/9.333=10.7% of its outer thickness on each surface at least under the pad swept area.
8.7-9.3 kg [19.0-20.5 lbs] is the usual rotor weight depending on manufacturer.
"One brake manufacturer showed us a cutaway of an offshore "economy" rotor for a particular vehicle that had 32 ribs. The OEM rotor, by comparison, had 37 ribs and provided up to eight percent better cooling than the economy rotor when tested in the laboratory. And because the OEM rib design ran cooler, pad life was 28 percent longer than the economy rotor.
Another aftermarket brake manufacturer showed us test results that proved their rib design improves cooling and makes their rotor three times quieter than a competitive rotor. The recorded sound levels showed noise as high as 85 decibels screaming out of the Brand X economy rotor compared to only 40 to 50 decibels from their own "premium" quality rotor.
........http://www.babcox.com/editorial/bf/bf10312.htm
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Q45tech
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1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
Re: (Q45tech)
Both the t and a versions of the 90-95Q Q use the smaller 28 mm front sway bar with a sloppy 2x2 rubber bushing set up that in effect doesn't engage the bar till the body rolls at least 1.0", to minimize street bumps and pitching.
The front rear spring ratio is roughly equal to the weight ratio 146/123 so the car steers neutrally until the front bar starts engaging progressively as the bushing compress............neutral to slight under steer, medium understeer to extreme understeer as the body rolls 1>2>2.5>3".
Hopefully you can see why a softer front bar creates LESS understeer.....why the engineers chose a 13% less stiff bar and added a mild rear bar........the rear bar doesn't have to be as stiff if the front is softer......makes for a better rear ride on the street.
Eibach springs are 15% stiffer front [linear] but progressive in rear so the car has more understeer in the beginning of body roll that switches more towards neutral as the rear body rolls then can approach oversteer at the extreme on body roll.
The optimum bar ratio didn't have a lot to do with the extra active weight on the front as that is taken care [matched ] of by springs active struts.
Bars are a way of fine tuning fore aft weight ratios.
A 28 front and 20mm rear works great for the street/ interstate........not that a 22mm rear wouldn't work a tiny bit better but unavailable.
Since it was brought up in this thread.
The front rear spring ratio is roughly equal to the weight ratio 146/123 so the car steers neutrally until the front bar starts engaging progressively as the bushing compress............neutral to slight under steer, medium understeer to extreme understeer as the body rolls 1>2>2.5>3".
Hopefully you can see why a softer front bar creates LESS understeer.....why the engineers chose a 13% less stiff bar and added a mild rear bar........the rear bar doesn't have to be as stiff if the front is softer......makes for a better rear ride on the street.
Eibach springs are 15% stiffer front [linear] but progressive in rear so the car has more understeer in the beginning of body roll that switches more towards neutral as the rear body rolls then can approach oversteer at the extreme on body roll.
The optimum bar ratio didn't have a lot to do with the extra active weight on the front as that is taken care [matched ] of by springs active struts.
Bars are a way of fine tuning fore aft weight ratios.
A 28 front and 20mm rear works great for the street/ interstate........not that a 22mm rear wouldn't work a tiny bit better but unavailable.
Since it was brought up in this thread.
Re: (Q45tech)
thanks for the info.....I can't believe that I got "power slot" vs. "power stop" confused when doing my search. Ohh well....I will still try these suckers out to see how they do. They sure were expensive enough those power slots.
but I still don't understand why or what the difference is in the active vs. base front rotors
but I still don't understand why or what the difference is in the active vs. base front rotors
Re: (rsiwicki)
I agree with Rob. I feel like I read through things throuroghly and couldn't see where any logic was applied to the price difference. That may be because there's no "reason", they just are more expensive??rsiwicki wrote:... but I still don't understand why or what the difference is in the active vs. base front rotors
Thanks for the info Dennis. It seems like your suggesting (or flat out saying) that OEM may not be the best replacement for rotors simply cause technology is allowing engineers to develop better cooling/heat dissipating rotors. But those rotors won't be $49 a pair at "autotrackzoneboys", they'll be expensive, as with anything - you pay for the technology.
Re: (rsiwicki)
here is an excerpt from their website....hopefully it is all true about the number of cooling fins and not being some cheap offshore casting...
they are sold at tirerack for $15 more per set than what I paid for at another online store...hopefully if they are tirerack approved then they should be equal to OEM (if I dare say that) or maybe a little better
Power Slot rotors are made using the highest quality Original Equipment replacement blanks. Competitors will sacrifice quality by using inexpensive off-shore castings. Typically these are made of inferior porous material and often have less cooling fins than their OE counterpart. These fins also serve to reinforce the rotor and guard against warpage. Power Slot rotors always meet and/or exceed all OE specifications. It’s also important to know that the exclusive Vac-U-Slot is tapered to enhance evacuation of heat and gases. All machining is done in house to Power Performance Group’s application specific tolerances to ensure optimum quality control.
Modified by rsiwicki at 9:49 AM 1/12/2005
they are sold at tirerack for $15 more per set than what I paid for at another online store...hopefully if they are tirerack approved then they should be equal to OEM (if I dare say that) or maybe a little better
Power Slot rotors are made using the highest quality Original Equipment replacement blanks. Competitors will sacrifice quality by using inexpensive off-shore castings. Typically these are made of inferior porous material and often have less cooling fins than their OE counterpart. These fins also serve to reinforce the rotor and guard against warpage. Power Slot rotors always meet and/or exceed all OE specifications. It’s also important to know that the exclusive Vac-U-Slot is tapered to enhance evacuation of heat and gases. All machining is done in house to Power Performance Group’s application specific tolerances to ensure optimum quality control.
Modified by rsiwicki at 9:49 AM 1/12/2005
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Q451990
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From all of my research, PowerStop rotors are made from Bradi or Brembo blanks. Interestingly enough, so are Stillen rotors... and Joe was able to get me a smoking deal on them.
I don't see them on the web site, so I'd give him a call. If I remember correctly the price was nearly the same as OEM rotors.
Heath
I don't see them on the web site, so I'd give him a call. If I remember correctly the price was nearly the same as OEM rotors.
Heath
Re: (Q451990)
Heath…that is what I had read elsewhere in another forum that PowerSlots were either directly Brembos or used the same licensed technology and fabrication specification of Brembos. They are made in a facility in California and I don't think that Tirerack would sell el cheapo rotors. PowerSlot recommends Hawk pads but I ordered the Axxis Metal Master instead through all my confusion. I am tonight going to research which pad is better and then go with that one, but I am wondering if Hawk pads has paid off PowerSlot for their recommendation and there is not much difference between the two brands. I am hoping not.
I just called Everything Infiniti and for the first time ever the parts guy had no idea why the price was different and he did not have any specs in his system to lookup why they might be different. I searched all through NICO archives and found no mention of this before and none of the online stores differentiate between the active versus base model Q front rotors. I can't believe this has never came up before…although we have very few active Q's on the board. If I find out what the differences are (if any) I will post them.
I just called Everything Infiniti and for the first time ever the parts guy had no idea why the price was different and he did not have any specs in his system to lookup why they might be different. I searched all through NICO archives and found no mention of this before and none of the online stores differentiate between the active versus base model Q front rotors. I can't believe this has never came up before…although we have very few active Q's on the board. If I find out what the differences are (if any) I will post them.
Re: (rsiwicki)
My PowerSlot rotors are in and will be shipped Thursday…so new brakes late next week for me as my front rotors are shot.
Just as an fyi for all you considering SS Lines. The company that I ordered my rotors from, ProstreetOnline, called to say that they have discontinued use of Russel SS Lines on some applications due to complaints and product failures. They are giving me a different brand of DOT approved lines that cost more for the same price as the Russel's. I forgot to ask who is the other brand but will find out soon enough when they arrive next week.
Just as an fyi for all you considering SS Lines. The company that I ordered my rotors from, ProstreetOnline, called to say that they have discontinued use of Russel SS Lines on some applications due to complaints and product failures. They are giving me a different brand of DOT approved lines that cost more for the same price as the Russel's. I forgot to ask who is the other brand but will find out soon enough when they arrive next week.