Bigvinnie wrote:I like your reply Mike.....No argument hereYou really should write a thread that could be stickied in this forum....You seem very knowledgeable on square decking, and building in general....Now only if you can get a group together to talk to Paul S. at NISMO to put the fully counter weighed cranks,rods, and pistons into production then there would be one powerful high rev steetable KA......

The problem with the SOHC KA is NOT the bottom end. The problem is the rockers DO NOT like more than 7500 RPM's Let's just say they BREAK IN HALF! Balance the crank,Rods,pistons or go for Carillo's and J&E's (about 11 or 12 to 1). DUMP the stock injection and put on a set of Mikuni 44's with about a .580 lift cam and open the exhaust and you'll have a fun ride! As far as getting Paul StClair (top notch great guy) to push through a fully counterweighted crank? Maybe you need to go to Ron Stuckenberg for that one !

BTW; Here's a little tip for you guys. I cryo treat EVERY internal engine part on my race engines. Crank,rods,pistons,cam,ROCKERS,chain,block,gears,bearings (rod,main AND wheel) I mean EVERYTHING! I have seen ware rates drop by 300% I cryo treat everything BEFORE any machining and there is a noticable improvement on surface finish. Better surface finish = more horsepower! I look for EVERYTHING! Here's a good site to check out. This is the place that does all my parts. http://www.cryosciencethchnologies.com

Later, Mike

Mike, any chance of you making it over to Carlisle for NICOfest this year?

240sxmech wrote:wow thats pretty funny i read that old thread and to me it seems that the guy was saying the same thing that mikegt3 is saying and it seemed like bigvinnie just tried to act like a know it all basiclly the same way he sounded in this thread ..but WOW even the CEO's machinist square decked his block, but must have been just to take money out of his pocket and screw him right bigvinnie? I work at a perfomance engine building shop and bigvinnie just drop trying to prove people wrong ok.

Actually, IIRC (I didn't bother to go back and read that old thread) the problem was that the kid was saying he made huge power because he square-decked the block, which mikegt3 already covered that you won't see big power gains from that. Sure Bigvinnie was probably a bit harsh on the kid, but the kid was a lying butthead anyway.Now where were all you guys when I started dreaming about my engine build 3 years ago? I probably would have had a lot less headaches. Keep the info coming! I hope to post a dyno before May!

Is this debate just about streetable KA's? I have got a video of Steve Kovac's KADE which I believe is NA running down a track at a time in the 11's. I haven't been on here in a while and don't know much about figuring power with 1/4 mile times, but if a 13 is around 200hp then my acute reasoning deductiveness would tell me he has surpassed that mark. Like I said I haven't been on here for some time, don't know if this a legit vid but am willing to send it to anyone who wants to host it. If I sound like a big idiot than just flame it on. I am a man and can take it.

he actually never said that , he told everyone he had high comp pistons a cam , head work and square decked the block . Everyone else said that he had a stock ka and all he did was square deck it to get the power. The problem is people dont read the entire post before they reply to something and in turn make themselves sound stupid. Im not saying the power he got is right or wrong but it is possible to gain that power with a ka without a turbo.

AelSic wrote:Is this debate just about streetable KA's? I have got a video of Steve Kovac's KADE which I believe is NA running down a track at a time in the 11's. I haven't been on here in a while and don't know much about figuring power with 1/4 mile times, but if a 13 is around 200hp then my acute reasoning deductiveness would tell me he has surpassed that mark. Like I said I haven't been on here for some time, don't know if this a legit vid but am willing to send it to anyone who wants to host it. If I sound like a big idiot than just flame it on. I am a man and can take it.

Send it over, worth checking out.

200hp in an S-chassis won't get it in the 13's without weight reduction, to my knowledge.

11's in an NA KADE is simply ludicrous - Not your fault, but patently out of reach.

those videos are readily avilable on the internet, and ive seen it. They speculate he was running a 75 shot of nitrous and some sort of Ford T-something6 auto tranny.

it was out 60 footing cars left adn right. but ive always been curious to see anything under the hood, because that car is a serious N/A + small (or possibly large) nitrous blast.

send any info out that you can find

Bah, just hang around for a while. Once some people in the upper part of my family die, I will invest some serious change into making a NA 240 a 200 whp beastie

Lol, then I will sell it, and get another one to turbo to around 350-400.

A longtime member of the old Altimas.net forum ran a 14.6 in a '93 Altima SE 5spd w/full bolt ons, JWT ECU and slicks...no head work, stock compression, cams,etc...He then mildly built the engine (10.5:1, slightly better cams, fully balanced) and ran a 13.9 w/same power adders/ECU/GTi-R tranny gears...Had slips to verify...

However, no one else has come within .2 of that 1/4 time in a few years at least...

BTW, here's a link to his own web page detailing his engine/specs,etchttp://www.angelfire.com/or3/factoryfreaks/

Jeremy

I scanned through most of the posts here and I really wanted to add in a few idea's of mine. I'm admittedly a forced induction geek, so...my NA tuning isn't as strong as it could be. However, building an engine for VE is relative.

My theory mostly revolves around tuning. I've been able to tweak power out of alot of different cars with tuning alone. So lets assume we've designed a well rounded NA motor. Entirely new I/H/E systems from scratch designed to work in conjuction with each other and made for a relativly low rpm. Lets use a 8000 RPM ceiling since anything higher simply eats more budget then I'd be willing to spend.

The first thing I'd like to address is the fuel being used. Since E85 is now available at the pump in ALOT of locations. I believe we should use it. With E85 you'll have to swap fuel injectors out just to run in stoich for ethanol. Stoich for E85 is 11.5:1 to 12:1 IIRC. So we could use 370cc injectors with very little tuning and achieve decent idle quality. Running E85 will allow the street driven motor to use extremely high compression and advanced timing without the worry of preignition or detonation. We can use whatever fuel management we choose so long as its a standalone or Rom tune. No piggy backs...I'd suggest the MSII for budget reasons and its ability to tune fuel and timing for about $410.

That leaves enough money to buy what I think is the key piece in this endeavor, the J&S SafeGuard. With this we can run advanced timing and aggressive fuel mapping without the worry of popping the motor. Essentially this enables us to go to the ragged edge to get the desired results.

Running E85 would let us keep the car as a daily driver but tune it as if we were running race gas.

Thoughts comments?

WD

I want 2 of those please would let me go nuts with timing and not mess anything up lol

tell me where e85 is around here and I would be gettign it. Always wonder why we dont have any?

We have two stations here in Tucson that sell it and a couple chemical supply places also have pumps for it. You do have to convert a few things, like run an external pump thats alcohol certified. You have to use a pump anti corrosive/lube chemical such as Mystery Oil every other tank or so to keep the pump lubed and the fuel system from corroding.

WD

Small problem-o with that: MMO effectively reduces octane. A lot.

Well MMO is just somthing you use with Methanol Injection, but it was mostly used with the older pumps. You can use lots of various things, but thats only if you use a non certified pump.

MSD makes cheap inline pumps that are alcohol certified. Then there are the expensive 8million GPM pumps. But I'm always thinking on a budget.

If you didn't use E85, I suppose we could use a vacuum based methonal injection kit, but the simpler the better IMO.

I think that drag KA running 11's is using nitromethane. Just switching to nitro would net aprx. 300chp and would still be "NA".

But nitro is almost the exact same thing as N2O...kinda goes against the theory and discussion a tad bit

Hope a youtube link is okay. Here it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEmlmJXFEos

I don't know if you'll have to copy and paste or not.If memory serves me right I always thought Nitrous was not considered forced induction. Merely a way to increase the amount of oxygen to burn with the fuel. So it was still considered an NA application just cheating the system a little.

Well N2O and Nitromethane aren't "forced induction" by definition. But anytime you are injecting or adding oxygen that the motor wouldn't have otherwise ingested it's not NA by definition either.

The whole idea here is to make a KA24DE reach 200 WHP without nirous. Anyone with an IQ of 42 can install a nitrous system...

whats that saying you want big numbers you gotta get boost turbo,s/c,or nos.Pick one!

Like wd said nos ADDS more air then the engine could take in NATURAULY. I stay away from nos personally its a "false sense of achievement",cause then take nos off that car and it slows way down. Just like when you get boost leak mofo,you lost all your added power.

Bah, the problem and probaby the reason why no one has made a Completely NA 200hp KA is because like stated earlier, it would cost too much money. A 200 hp vehicle is no big deal. The big deal about this would be the fact that its a NA KA. Otherwise, big whooptee. It would be nice to have the first though, with no boost, no nos, nothing. Running on pump gas at that....Ethanol isn't available around here, so thats not an option. I am not really sure about engine rebuilds, and the gains from such, but I am pretty sure it can be done....

^ Exactly.

Many have tried, many have failed.

And, the fact of the matter is, you can have 300+ RELIABLE hp for far less money with a proper build / boost.

You won't ever hear me arguing NA power over Boost. I just enjoy comparing idea's for achieving seemingly unattainable goals.

It would actually end up being easier and cheaper to simply drop in a carburated V8. But thats like admitting defeat...although I'm admittedly throwing the flag myself. More cubes = more power, always will.

WD

240sxmech wrote:wow thats pretty funny i read that old thread and to me it seems that the guy was saying the same thing that mikegt3 is saying and it seemed like bigvinnie just tried to act like a know it all basiclly the same way he sounded in this thread ..but WOW even the CEO's machinist square decked his block, but must have been just to take money out of his pocket and screw him right bigvinnie? I work at a perfomance engine building shop and bigvinnie just drop trying to prove people wrong ok.

LOL.. Your funny.....

mikegt3 wrote:
As far as getting Paul StClair (top notch great guy) to push through a fully counterweighted crank? Maybe you need to go to Ron Stuckenberg for that one

Paul is a great guy but not great enough that I would pay over $8000 for the NISMO fully counter weighed kit, with rods and pistons.I wanted to explain to him that these kits should be sold to the general public, he claims that there is too much bottom end work involved to install the new bottom assembly. He is a great and intelligent guy. NISMO only gets about 55 of this bottom assembly in production a year.How do I get a hold of Ron Stuckenberg, and could he just sell a fully counter weighed crank that would use the OEM rods, and pistons???

i dont see why you couldnt entirely cut apart two KA cranks, and jsut reuse only the counterweighted portions. the weighted and non weighted portions are identical otherwise.... im sure someone has done it.

on average it costs about 2000 dollars to get a crank destroked and then balanced. I dont see why it would cost more than 4k to get it welded, ground, knife edged and balanced. but then again.... still 4k when you can kind of do 8k on a stock crank?

once again, im jsut throwing it out there, because i know someone knows something

I dont think the end product is worth all 8k still,when you can simply bolt on an of shelf turbo kit form many places,or build a budget kit with some time and deals, and make upwards of 300 with a good tune. cannot be changed

DjPantsSpecR wrote:i dont see why you couldnt entirely cut apart two KA cranks, and jsut reuse only the counterweighted portions. the weighted and non weighted portions are identical otherwise.... im sure someone has done it.

This experiment with fully counter weighed knife edged cranks was tried before.My friend Steve tried this method and it doesn't work. Once the inertia in the bottom starts rotating to fast the welds snap or crack.....Welding on weights isn't good enough. IPP even recommends that you don't use there cranks for high end applications, street use only WETFTM.

Bigvinnie wrote:
Paul is a great guy but not great enough that I would pay over $8000 for the NISMO fully counter weighed kit, with rods and pistons.I wanted to explain to him that these kits should be sold to the general public, he claims that there is too much bottom end work involved to install the new bottom assembly. He is a great and intelligent guy. NISMO only gets about 55 of this bottom assembly in production a year.How do I get a hold of Ron Stuckenberg, and could he just sell a fully counter weighed crank that would use the OEM rods, and pistons???

How do you get a hold of Ron Stuckenberg? Call Paul and ask to talk to HIS boss !

mikegt3 wrote:
How do you get a hold of Ron Stuckenberg? Call Paul and ask to talk to HIS boss !

LOL.. When I called Ed Pinks office they gave me Pauls number........

i would never make any claims about anything other than what i have seen and what i have heard with my eyes and ears , one day while at SPECIALTY ENGINEERING 604-521-9232 NEW WESTMINSTER BC i heard a deal get made for a N/a high comp. motor able to run on 94 octane , producing 200+ @ the crank, what that will translate to at the wheels i have yet to see but i am excited .

if anyone knows this shop and what they have done for datsuns/nissans then i dont need to say anymore but if you dont know about them give em a call - they dont have a web site although they get mentioned on PDM's page, and they have a formidable race record especially with the 240`s and 510`s
Modified by stocker240 at 10:50 PM 3/12/2007