Shift_Kouki wrote:OK, back on topic, and maybe I'm a newb again for thinking this...

But if the KADE is stroked out to 100mm... what does that do to the compression on stock pistons? Would one need custom pistons for valve clearance? Or are we talking custom rod & pistons to make it work either way?

If indeed it is the basic KA engine by another name I think I would start by investigating the stock rods and pistons for that same stroker.

180 - Can you start a seperate thread with those 2 posts?They're kinda off this topic, and your questions deserve their own thread.

-Sorry, learning how all of this works. You all seem to have so many answers.Thanks

I received a reply back today from LT and they seem interested in producing the fully counterweighted crank. So now I asked the question what would it cost to R&D and produce 300 KA24de forged fully counter weighed and bullnosed crank shafts. I didn't ask for production of any KAE cranks yet. I am waiting for another reply, I will want to see where this takes me as far as cost. I also need to start talking with vendors.Communication with this company is difficult it seems to be extremely bad broken down english.

Bigvinnie, is the main incentive of a counterweighted crank just to allow for higher rpms, as well as being more balanced?I love na power over turbo and if a counterweighted crank would allow my 24e to get into the higher rpms I would definitely be interested. I know that you are only working on the de, but if one for the e ever becomes a possiblity I would fork up the $$$ to get into the higher rpms.

180weaver wrote:Bigvinnie, is the main incentive of a counterweighted crank just to allow for higher rpms, as well as being more balanced?

A fully counter weighed crank has many advantages over a half weighed crank shafts.Longer and higher torque bands, More higher peak HP, Smoother harmonics, a longer rev range, and a higher redline. KA has a long rod and needs a fully counter weighed crank to have less torsional stress and more rigidity. It increases rev range and prevents power loss normally associated with the half weighted crank.Most engines designed for racing applications come with fully counter weighed cranks. Most truck cranks I know of come half weighted for lowend torque band, and low RPM use, its nothing to use for high reving, on large displacement.

I can't do business with the Chinese there communication sucks and they don't understand a damn thing I am trying to tell them.

This is what I wrote.

Bigvinnie wrote:What would it cost to get 300 forged Chromolly 4140 Fully counterweighed, and bullnosed cranks produced for the KA24de? May I get an estimate to work out for financing.

This was the responce.

xubing xia wrote:
Dear Mr. Vincent Williams, Is that 300 for 300pcs, please advise the speciaifaction data for count the charges and back to you later soon. Thanks and with best regards. Sincerley, Xia xubing

If he can't tell that all I asked for was a estimate price on 300 cranks then the communication process has failed. No business, no go, and a waste of my time.....I feel like I'm Chris Tucker, speaking to Jackie Chan...
Modified by Bigvinnie at 10:45 PM 4/9/2007

Bigvinnie wrote:I can't do business with the Chinese there communication sucks and they don't understand a damn thing I am trying to tell them.

You think that's hard, try collecting a monthly invoice... Misery. All of a sudden, the English goes out the window.

Let me get with some Taiwanese companies at AAPEX, Vinnie. Let's talk before then.

Hi Vinnie,

I remember the he being a she. You're also using pretty complex syntax and vocabulary.

With your proximity to Chinatown in SF you should not have too much trouble finding an interpreter.

Quote »Can I get Price Quote for:

Need: 300 (qty) Crankshaft for KA24DE

Spec: Forged Chromolly 4140, Fully counter-weighed, and bull-nosed.[/quote]

And Fixed.

Probably should include a pic of a bull-nosed crank. I can assure you that even most English speaking enthusiasts would not know what that means.

There is a good article by David Vizard on cranks in Circle Track; there are some pics of bull-nosed cranks in there.

http://www.circletrack.com/tec...ology/

http://www.circletrack.com/tec....html

hooly **** vinnie I'd be pissed too,wtf is so hard about a nigga wants to know what 300 fully counter weighted cranks would cost. ownage speak more clearly vinnie.. oh and I didnt know we were related(williams) lol j/k man try again tho,you still want a damn crank man,I will when de....

Kevin Johnson wrote:Probably should include a pic of a bull-nosed crank. I can assure you that even most English speaking enthusiasts would not know what that means.

There is a good article by David Vizard on cranks in Circle Track; there are some pics of bull-nosed cranks in there.

http://www.circletrack.com/tec...ology/

http://www.circletrack.com/tec....html

Yeah I like that article. I think it's funny how the terminology of bullnose is now more defined as AERO. But it has been talked about for quite sometime.I have also been telling people how to drop the (MOI) moment of inertia from the KA crank. That can be done in one of 2 ways with the KA half weighted crank by either knife edging or reducing the the outer most weights( dropping mass weight). Like I said before (MOI) also has a draw back of reduced lowend torque, but it makes the power band much more peepy for higher rev HP.I was most intrigued with the reduction of journal size and use of smaller bearing's. Paul Stclair was telling me the same thing about the NISMO bottom assembly less friction more rev happy.

Vinnie - Why not just go to SEMA with us this year? I typically take 4-6 staff along, and it'd be a great opportunity to hit up several vendors in one fell swoop. Most travel with interpreters, and AAPEX is a friendly atmosphere.

AZhitman wrote:Vinnie - Why not just go to SEMA with us this year? I typically take 4-6 staff along, and it'd be a great opportunity to hit up several vendors in one fell swoop. Most travel with interpreters, and AAPEX is a friendly atmosphere.

Greg that sounds awesome, but I am totally booked with school, work, and the negative free time I already don't have. But the show isn't until Oct-Nov so we will need to keep in touch. I may be able to find some time. But I don't want to make any obligations unless I can get something produced, it would be a waste of our time if I didn't have a product.

Edit: My girlfriend just informed me that we are scheduling a trip to LasVegas around that time (she's never been to sin city). So more than likely I should find some time.


Modified by Bigvinnie at 6:49 PM 4/10/2007

Hey guys, I've been off this site for a while. I started reading this post from the beginning but when I got to the pissing match somewhere in the middle pages, I jumped to page 7. My 240SX GT3 racecar is sold and I have some spare KA 3 valve parts I'm looking to sell. If your interested, email me directly at [email protected] Nissan comp intake manifold ( ported for 44mm Mikuni's) $750 Dump that CRAP injection! 2 Mikuni 44mm stage 3 race prepped carbs $1,5004 Carillo rods (Brand NEW!) $6001 Rebello cam (used but good) $3001 set of Nissan comp valve springs (used but check good) $1001 Nissan comp head gasket $752 Nissan comp pan gaskets $50 for bothBuy the whole package for $3,000 !

With some 12 to 1 pistons and some flow work on your cylinder head and you WILL have a 200RWP KA !

BTW If you guys are going through the expense of having KA cranks custom made,.... Make sure you have the balancer bolt threads machined all the way to the first main journal. That's a mod we do for the 280hp race engines. If you don't, the cranks break off just behind the balancer. The extra long balancer bolt "holds" the crank snout to the rest of the crank and they don't break there any more. Remember,....We run these KA's at 7,500 rpm's all day long!

Thanks, Mike

Bigvinnie wrote:
Yeah I like that article. I think it's funny how the terminology of bullnose is now more defined as AERO. But it has been talked about for quite sometime.I have also been telling people how to drop the (MOI) moment of inertia from the KA crank. That can be done in one of 2 ways with the KA half weighted crank by either knife edging or reducing the the outer most weights( dropping mass weight). Like I said before (MOI) also has a draw back of reduced lowend torque, but it makes the power band much more peepy for higher rev HP.I was most intrigued with the reduction of journal size and use of smaller bearing's. Paul Stclair was telling me the same thing about the NISMO bottom assembly less friction more rev happy.

Well, to give you an example of the confusion in terms, "knife-edging" means more than one thing. Some people mean putting a single or dual beveled edge on the leading surface while others mean taking material from the sides of the counterweights.

If you look at many modern cranks the entire counterweight is profiled in three dimensions -- this is also called aero -- much more complicated to calculate the mass without the aid of computers. Honda D and B series and the Zetec E Ford engine display this.

mikegt3 wrote:1 Rebello cam (used but good) $300 Mike

Mike what is the lift and duration on that Rebello cam? I'm assuming it's not to harsh if you talk about using 12.1:1 compression ratio on them.

Thanks for the info on the crank I am adding it to my information of spec data....

Kevin Johnson wrote:
Well, to give you an example of the confusion in terms, "knife-edging" means more than one thing. Some people mean putting a single or dual beveled edge on the leading surface while others mean taking material from the sides of the counterweights.

Knifing as far back as I could remember was only to single or dual bevel the edge of the leading surface. But I do see how the term does change for a larger definition of the type of machine work that is done.

mikegt3 wrote:Hey guys, I've been off this site for a while. I started reading this post from the beginning but when I got to the pissing match somewhere in the middle pages, I jumped to page 7.

-snip-

BTW If you guys are going through the expense of having KA cranks custom made,.... Make sure you have the balancer bolt threads machined all the way to the first main journal. That's a mod we do for the 280hp race engines. If you don't, the cranks break off just behind the balancer. The extra long balancer bolt "holds" the crank snout to the rest of the crank and they don't break there any more. Remember,....We run these KA's at 7,500 rpm's all day long!

Thanks, Mike

Hi Mike,

Most of my pissing contests come as a reaction to people who don't recognize technology that is extant in their own engines or other common engines or take the time to carefully compare parts. The latter is understandable given some basic cognitive psych. Humans attend well to similarities or differences but not both simultaneously (at least consciously). That specifically refers to differences in bolt pad height in this thread which you skipped over.

Ok, now to your suggestion. I am glad it works for you and that you have clearly identified a problem with the stock cranks at 7500 rpms (I am assuming you modified a stock crank). I just took the time to measure the threaded depth on the KA snout. On the crank that I have here it is 20mm.

I think the principal problem is that with a bolt to work correctly as a fastener it is necessary for it not to bottom out. With a bolt the threads in the part are under stess. Both of these combine to generate a stress raiser at or around the end of the engaged bolt which appears to correlate with your failures.

Did you try using a bottoming stud locked in place with an adhesive? This would have the effect of coming as close as possible to a contiguous part with much less chance of generating a localized stress raiser. It would be less expensive to make this modification, at least for existing cranks.

Examples of OEM cranks that have been used successfully in racing at extreme rpms for many decades with a machined threaded end rather a bolt hole can be found in the Fiat engine series.

It may be that the reason why a threaded hole is used is to make servicing the engine more practical in conjunction with the pressure on chassis/body designers to reduce weight and volume in the engine compartment. [The path of insertion/removal of a part is extended outwards if the crank has an extension like a threaded stud -- it may not be physically possible to remove the part in situ. However the same end result can arise for a fastener that is long enough to reach to the first journal.]

Kind regards,

Kevin
Modified by Kevin Johnson at 7:00 AM 4/13/2007

Bigvinnie wrote:
Knifing as far back as I could remember was only to single or dual bevel the edge of the leading surface. But I do see how the term does change for a larger definition of the type of machine work that is done.

There you go -- for most of the people contacting me from around the world, knife-edging means removing material from the sides of the counterweights. Also known sometimes as "Butterflying." That affects the swept path of the counterweight which your definition typically doesn't.

Kevin Johnson wrote:
Ok, now to your suggestion. I am glad it works for you and that you have clearly identified a problem with the stock cranks at 7500 rpms (I am assuming you modified a stock crank). I just took the time to measure the threaded depth on the KA snout. On the crank that I have here it is 20mm.

I think the principal problem is that with a bolt to work correctly as a fastener it is necessary for it not to bottom out. With a bolt the threads in the part are under stess. Both of these combine to generate a stress raiser at or around the end of the engaged bolt which appears to correlate with your failures.

Did you try using a bottoming stud locked in place with an adhesive? This would have the effect of coming as close as possible to a contiguous part with much less chance of generating a localized stress raiser. It would be less expensive to make this modification, at least for existing cranks.

Kevin

Modified by Kevin Johnson at 7:00 AM 4/13/2007

From what I just checked, a fully counter weighed crank wont deal with those problems. I won't have to deal with the thread/bolt length as described from Mike. With dealing with 4140 chromolly the tensile strength is just as high with a lighter composite steel (forged). Also dealing with full weights per journal there is over all less torsional stress applied to the crank. Overall less MOI (compared to a half weighted stock crank) with the entire rev range upto 7500RPM, I personally don't think it would be an issue. But it would be nice if some one could prove me wrong..If that is somewhat to the effect of what you are saying Kevin

Kevin, I thi

Kevin Johnson wrote:
Hi Mike,

Most of my pissing contests come as a reaction to people who don't recognize technology that is extant in their own engines or other common engines or take the time to carefully compare parts. The latter is understandable given some basic cognitive psych. Humans attend well to similarities or differences but not both simultaneously (at least consciously). That specifically refers to differences in bolt pad height in this thread which you skipped over.

Ok, now to your suggestion. I am glad it works for you and that you have clearly identified a problem with the stock cranks at 7500 rpms (I am assuming you modified a stock crank). I just took the time to measure the threaded depth on the KA snout. On the crank that I have here it is 20mm.

I think the principal problem is that with a bolt to work correctly as a fastener it is necessary for it not to bottom out. With a bolt the threads in the part are under stess. Both of these combine to generate a stress raiser at or around the end of the engaged bolt which appears to correlate with your failures.

Did you try using a bottoming stud locked in place with an adhesive? This would have the effect of coming as close as possible to a contiguous part with much less chance of generating a localized stress raiser. It would be less expensive to make this modification, at least for existing cranks.

Examples of OEM cranks that have been used successfully in racing at extreme rpms for many decades with a machined threaded end rather a bolt hole can be found in the Fiat engine series.

It may be that the reason why a threaded hole is used is to make servicing the engine more practical in conjunction with the pressure on chassis/body designers to reduce weight and volume in the engine compartment. [The path of insertion/removal of a part is extended outwards if the crank has an extension like a threaded stud -- it may not be physically possible to remove the part in situ. However the same end result can arise for a fastener that is long enough to reach to the first journal.]

Kind regards,

Kevin

Modified by Kevin Johnson at 7:00 AM 4/13/2007

Kevin, I think you may have misunderstood the problem with stock KA cranks and prolonged 7,500 rpm use. There is NOT a problem with the balancer bolt or the bolt "bottoming" in the crank threads. The problem is that the KA harmonics break the crank snout off the crank between the back of the balancer and the number 1 main. The balancer is simply a "shock absorber". The crank sends a "harmonic" to the balancer and the balancer "smooths" out that "shock". The problem is that the KA sends some WICKED "harmonics" up to the balancer and it twists the crank snout OFF. You then have a 10 pound "frisby" running around the engine bay beating the crap out of everything in it's way!We use ATP balancers on the race engines. Stock balancers just won't cut it on the race engines. We then have the crank drilled and taped all the way to the first main. That way the bolt helps "hold" the crank shout to the rest of the crank. All I can say is that without this mod, we lost crank snouts on a regular basis. After the mod,....Never lost one! BTW,... If I send you a dyno sheet from one of my KA race engines that make 280Hp (Approx 240hp at the wheels) will you still eat that crank scraper?

Peace brother!Mike

mikegt3 wrote:Kevin, I think you may have misunderstood the problem with stock KA cranks and prolonged 7,500 rpm use. There is NOT a problem with the balancer bolt or the bolt "bottoming" in the crank threads.

No, I understand that the problem does not arise from the bolt bottoming out. I am saying that the lack of the ability to bottom out is a design limitation of that fastener. An intended design characteristic that is simultaneously a limitation. And it is not the only limitation that helps to generate the stress raiser.

mikegt3 wrote:The problem is that the KA harmonics break the crank snout off the crank between the back of the balancer and the number 1 main.

Yes, I am saying there appears to be a correlation between the location of the failure and the inherent design limitations of the fastener. Since you found a successful solution to the problem by making the fastener longer it further appears that you have simply shifted the stress raiser to a stronger location of the crank, i.e. the area of increased diameter at the first main.

What is left unsaid but implied is that you previously tried drilling and tapping the hole deeper but not to the first main and that this still resulted in failures. Where the fracture point in those failures occured would be of interest.

Drilling out the center of the crank would normally make it incrementally weaker, not by a huge amount of course. That this ultimately resulted in a successful solution was another factor in why I suspected a stress raiser generated by the fastener system.

What I am doing is theoretically explicating what "helps "hold" the crank shout to the rest of the crank" entails.

What I am suggesting is that there may be a simpler and less expensive solution. This is not a reflection upon the success of your solution. Oftentimes when a solution is found and the reasons for its success are understood other paths to the same end result become apparent.

I understand about the harmonics which is why I suggested the fully counterweighted crank prior to learning of Vinnie's quest. There are still inherent harmonics in a fully counterweighted crank for an inline four because rotating masses are not the only forces present nor are the balancing masses diametrically opposed but rather offset.

This same general problem also apparently gives rise to some failures with sintered powdered metal Gerotor oil pump gears located on the axis of the crank between the first main and the snout. This occurs even with fully counterweighted cranks and some with harmonic balancers. You can read more about it by looking into the controversy surrounding "power pulleys" that sometimes delete the harmonic balancer function of the part they are replacing.

mikegt3 wrote:-snip-

BTW,... If I send you a dyno sheet from one of my KA race engines that make 280Hp (Approx 240hp at the wheels) will you still eat that crank scraper?

I think you are mistaking me for Greg.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Bigvinnie wrote:From what I just checked, a fully counter weighed crank wont deal with those problems. I won't have to deal with the thread/bolt length as described from Mike. With dealing with 4140 chromolly the tensile strength is just as high with a lighter composite steel (forged). Also dealing with full weights per journal there is over all less torsional stress applied to the crank. Overall less MOI (compared to a half weighted stock crank) with the entire rev range upto 7500RPM, I personally don't think it would be an issue. But it would be nice if some one could prove me wrong..If that is somewhat to the effect of what you are saying Kevin

I was just suggesting that using a bottoming stud with adhesive might allow the successful use of the stock crank at 7500 rpms (I am assuming that Mike was modifying stock partially counterweighted cranks). I do not know for a fact that it will. It is just a suggestion.

Second order harmonics will still be present, of course, in a fully counterweighted crank. The Dodge 2.4 has a fully counterweighted crank and uses a balance shaft system as has and does the Mitsubishi 4G64.

mikegt3 wrote:
BTW,... If I send you a dyno sheet from one of my KA race engines that make 280Hp (Approx 240hp at the wheels) will you still eat that crank scraper?

Peace brother!Mike

well NO! he and most in this section are speaking of dohc ka's not 12valve, I pulled out the scca gt3 build sheet way back to point out sohc ka can make the 200whp mark, dohc is what everyone has the big problem getting over.... sohc cost plenty to get over the hump but appears to be a tad bit easier...

Kevin Johnson wrote:
Second order harmonics will still be present, of course, in a fully counterweighted crank. The Dodge 2.4 has a fully counterweighted crank and uses a balance shaft system as has and does the Mitsubishi 4G64.

It's a weird thought, the moment you said mitsubishi all I could think of was CRANK WALK......

But to get back on subject there will be harmonics and torsional stress at play with a long stroke such as the KA's crank, but at least fully weighted it can counter act a lot of the torsional stress. I don't think half as many issues would be apparent as there are with the partially/halfweighted crank.....

I'm also wondering if a HARMONIC dampener/balancer such as the ones ATI make would need to be used to counter act a lot of the vibration, harmonic disturbance, and stress that occurs at the higher RPM's (above 6500~8000RPM).

I found a picture of the FJ24 crank shaft. This is in essence what the KA24 fully counter weighed shaft will look like with the exception of a bullnose, slightly longer stroke, and knifing. FJ used a larger piston for it's cc I believe 92mm....

There also may be the possibility that I can speak with Brian Crower. The company manufactures there own cranks from chromolly steel as well.

Picture of Brian Crower Crank shaft next to the BILLET it comes from.


Modified by Bigvinnie at 3:38 PM 4/14/2007

would there be less vibes from a lighter(knife edged) crank. I was just wondering if less mass would mean less vibration.

240ka24 wrote:would there be less vibes from a lighter(knife edged) crank. I was just wondering if less mass would mean less vibration.

Slightly less harmonic disturbance. As discussed earlier a lighter crank would reduce the (MOI) moment of inertia, chromolly works best at this benefit, do to it's high tensile strength, and light weight mass. Brian Crower has been doing a lot of cranks these days using chromolly just for several benefits that reduce harmonic disturbance as well as MOI, (it won't reduce to much of the initial low end torque that is already benefited through bore and stroke dimension, high rev capabilities would be much higher). The strength of chromolly is unbelievable for it's light weight composition.

In your case just removing mass from the stock crank shaft should help reduce the rough harmonics, but low end torque would suffer. I believe IPP does knife edging and they remove upto 3LB.s from the stock crank shaft.

neverlift wrote:
well NO! he and most in this section are speaking of dohc ka's not 12valve, I pulled out the scca gt3 build sheet way back to point out sohc ka can make the 200whp mark, dohc is what everyone has the big problem getting over.... sohc cost plenty to get over the hump but appears to be a tad bit easier...

I'm not sure why you think the "twin cam" Ka is harder to get big HP from than the SOHC. The stadium trucks make 365hp with the twin cam. If I ever go back to SCCA GT3 racing,...It will be with a Nissan twin cam KA and TWM injection,Pink cylinder head,Rebello cams,carillo's,J&E's, ATI balancer, stock crank (drilled snout), MY hand made header and exhaust(4-2-1). But that's a dream because SCCA GT3 is a dying class and it makes NO sense to invest the money into a program for a class that you probably won't see at the Runoffs after 2007. It's kind of a sore subject for me and I won't get into it here. For me, now I'll go and build a fresh 240hp L20B for my vintage 510 and go and have some fun beating up on all the old Porsche 911's and Alfa's ! Good luck guy's and girls? with your quest with 200+ hp Ka's. If any of you are ever in the Bethel CT area, I invite you to stop by my shop and lay some rubber down across the parking lot !

Live and learn, Mike

BTW Pissing matches

Mike

mikegt3 wrote:I'm not sure why you think the "twin cam" Ka is harder to get big HP from than the SOHC. The stadium trucks make 365hp with the twin cam.

Because we've been playing with KA motors for 10 years, and since the beginning of this thread, NO ONE has come forward with any solid evidence that a DOHC KA has exceeded 200whp.

The only reference I could find to a Nissan stadium truck was the 1985 Electramotive truck campaigned (very successfully) by Mears. No DOHC KA in that truck. The '88 Desert Runner Edition commemorates that awesome ride.

On a side note, I'm doing a resto on an L24 right now... Loving the sound of a vintage Nissan straight six!

Mike, do you ever run across any U20's?