Who DADT ?

[bigbadberry3]

By DADT I'm referring to don't ask don't tell. I don't see why having gays openly serve the country is bad. I know the common line is that being gay and openly gay within a group prevents unit bonding, but doesn't not being straight forward with your unit create the same situation almost through dishonesty? We have multitudes of diversity in the armed forces, some which undoubtedly create more tension within a unit than being a homosexual. Race tensions, religious tensions, hell even gang tensions are issues . I have not served in the armed forces, but I have had gay teammates and have a gay friend with no negative effects. Someone willing to take a sworn duty to protect the country should be allowed to represent their country openly and honestly. I bet a bullet from a homosexuals gun kills as well as a bullet from from a heterosexual.

[audtatious]

Never been in the military but a soldier is a soldier and not supposed to be a "sexual being" one way or another. Otherwise I have conflicting views on the whole thing. I'm sure WD will wade in.

[JustinStrife]

Bad idea. By anyone and everyone I've ever been around Military wise. Leave it the way it is, it's the best of the options.

[srellim234]

I don't mind a variation of the current policy. Asking isn't all that important, so don't ask. However, people shouldn't be thrown out because they admit they are gay. Too many prople that are good military service people, some who have proved themselves to be exceptional warriors under fire, have already been thrown out beause they were gay.

The military codes of conduct can be adjusted to prohibit acting on being gay and barring public displays of affection if it offends or threatens that many people.

[WDRacing]

This is going to make me sound like an ***hole, but there really isn't anyway to put this nicely. So bare in mind that I'm not trying to insult anyone, gay or otherwise.

Group f***ing showers...hello!!!

Are we going to have separate housing and latrines for gays? We do for male and female for one f***ing reason, there is a god damn attraction between the two and bad things happen when they mix.

We're talking about the United States Armed Forces. Not some Liberal civilian run company that needs to worry about being PC. We're soldiers. We take orders and follow them. We're called upon to leave our families quite often and head off to war for years at a time. Sometimes we kill other humans. Sometimes we kill LOTS of other humans. Do we not have enough to deal with without adding gays into the mix?

We're talking about the first and last line of defense here people. Politically correct can STAY THE f*** OUT. If gays come in openly, within the first year there will be lots of accidental deaths and beatings. Trust me on this.

Soldiers aren't like you civilian types. We don't think like you and we can't afford to. We're trained to react with deadly violence if necessary.

Our lives depend strictly on the Chain Of Command and Unit Integrity. If you allow gays in, there will be times when the COC will be questioned because the officer or NCO is gay. That is unacceptable...period. There may be a feeling of not being able to depend on the man/women next to you, unacceptable.

Unless you are or were a soldier then you will NEVER understand and quite honestly I don't think your opinion counts.

Do gay men and women want to fight and die for their country? You bet they do, but what does that have to do with anything? Exactly nothing. Just because someone wants something doesn't mean it should come to pass. Hell even if it's the "right" choice it needs to be weighed against the problems that would certainly occur if something this stupid were to come to pass.

Obama and this admin are a bunch of fools and they are ruining this country. This is just another glaring example of how little they understand.

WD

[bigbadberry3]

WD- I respect your opinion and all because I am stating my position from a civilians aspect.

1) Group Showers. Yeah get over it. You shower in high school with a bunch of naked dudes all around you, if anyone tries something in the shower, you give them a good thumping regardless of if they're gay or straight.

2) At one point the military was segregated! Since then, the armed forces were integrated because people got over their fears of working with someone of another ethnicity and realized it didn't matter what color skin they had, they fought to serve their country together.

3) If a gay soldier is asked to leave their family (life partner,whatever they are calling it) for years on end, they do it just like a heterosexual does.

4) The commander in chief is saying that gays are as good as any heterosexual military member with support from high ranking military officials. If the military leaders whom you listen to and trust enough with your life are saying gays are A-OK, why would you not listen?

[WDRacing]

1) Group Showers. Yeah get over it. You shower in high school with a bunch of naked dudes all around you, if anyone tries something in the shower, you give them a good thumping regardless of if they're gay or straight.

2) At one point the military was segregated! Since then, the armed forces were integrated because people got over their fears of working with someone of another ethnicity and realized it didn't matter what color skin they had, they fought to serve their country together.

3) If a gay soldier is asked to leave their family (life partner,whatever they are calling it) for years on end, they do it just like a heterosexual does.

4) The commander in chief is saying that gays are as good as any heterosexual military member with support from high ranking military officials. If the military leaders whom you listen to and trust enough with your life are saying gays are A-OK, why would you not listen?

1, So beating up gay soldiers in the shower is ok? Because that's exactly what you said and that's exactly what will happen. "Get over it" is a naive and ignorant point of view. You can't press your opinion of "get over it" onto others that are dealing with it. What if a gay male becomes aroused while in the shower? He's gonna find out first hand what fratricide is.

2, That's because there is no difference between a black man and a white man. But there IS a difference between a gay man and straight man. Apples and oranges can't be compared.

3, Right now they aren't asked. My point was simple, we're fighting multiple wars on multiple fronts. Our Soldiers and Sailors have more then enough on their plate without gay integration.

4, Obama is out of touch and has no practical military experience. His opinion as well as all other non military opinions should hold ZERO weight. He was elected by ignorant people that believed a media blitz about change and salvation. His actions speak so loudly that I can't hear him.

Our so called military leaders that agree with Obama are nothing more then politicians themselves. I'm am not even close to being alone with this opinion.

Start asking active duty military if they mind sharing a 3 man tent with 2 other gay males.

Civilians will never understand. Unit Integrity and morale are extremely important. You're talking about putting a serious damper on both at a time when we're at war with everyone that lives near an oil supply.

One thing rings true, every time a damn Liberal is in charge the Military gets screwed over.

*EDIT*

If I come off as a jerk, I don't mean to. I'm just passionate about this topic. I've adjusted my stance on gays several times over the last few years. But I refuse to accept that allowing them to be openly gay AND serve in the Military will ever be a good thing.

WD

[bigbadberry3]

1, So beating up gay soldiers in the shower is ok? Because that's exactly what you said and that's exactly what will happen. "Get over it" is a naive and ignorant point of view. You can't press your opinion of "get over it" onto others that are dealing with it. What if a gay male becomes aroused while in the shower? He's gonna find out first hand what fratricide is.

2, That's because there is no difference between a black man and a white man. But there IS a difference between a gay man and straight man. Apples and oranges can't be compared.

3, Right now they aren't asked. My point was simple, we're fighting multiple wars on multiple fronts. Our Soldiers and Sailors have more then enough on their plate without gay integration.

4, Obama is out of touch and has no practical military experience. His opinion as well as all other non military opinions should hold ZERO weight. He was elected by ignorant people that believed a media blitz about change and salvation. His actions speak so loudly that I can't hear him.

Our so called military leaders that agree with Obama are nothing more then politicians themselves. I'm am not even close to being alone with this opinion.

Start asking active duty military if they mind sharing a 3 man tent with 2 other gay males.

Civilians will never understand. Unit Integrity and morale are extremely important. You're talking about putting a serious damper on both at a time when we're at war with everyone that lives near an oil supply.

One thing rings true, every time a damn Liberal is in charge the Military gets screwed over.

*EDIT*

If I come off as a jerk, I don't mean to. I'm just passionate about this topic. I've adjusted my stance on gays several times over the last few years. But I refuse to accept that allowing them to be openly gay AND serve in the Military will ever be a good thing.

WD

WD- I don't mind your passion, as it's thought out and logical.

1) I don't condone beating someone up because their different. If someone tries to make a sexual advance on you, male or female, and you don't want to partake, you have to defend yourself from being raped. However, not every gay individual is looking to get some in the shower. Having a mindset like that plays into the stereotype that gays will immediately want to have sex with everyone in the military of the same sex.

2) I would say if you lived even 50 years ago, many many many people would say that white people and black people are different races and life of that time period definitely reflected that view. Gays are suffering from the same type of fear.

3) Undoubtedly, there are gays in the military already who are able to control themselves so there would be no integration per say, just revealing.

4) It's not just Obama or people who don't know the military,Defense Secretary Robert Gates and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Admiral Michael G. Mullen, called for an end to the discriminatory "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy.

Unit integrity to me includes honesty, not hiding facts. Without being honest, a unit can never fully bond.

[WDRacing]

Your #4 is full of fail...lol. All of those people are douche bags bro. Gates is probably the worst. He's a major player in the botched JSF defense contract which is resulting in us, the tax payer, losing millions. By the time that thing is done with flt test it'll be another F22.

Sorry, that's all off topic. I just like beating up politicians when I get the chance and he is a total dirt bag

[audtatious]

WD- I don't mind your passion, as it's thought out and logical.

1) I don't condone beating someone up because their different. If someone tries to make a sexual advance on you, male or female, and you don't want to partake, you have to defend yourself from being raped. However, not every gay individual is looking to get some in the shower. Having a mindset like that plays into the stereotype that gays will immediately want to have sex with everyone in the military of the same sex.

Would you support unisex bathrooms and showers in this situation as well? One of the main reason women have their own barracks and showers is due to men being aroused by seeing them naked, since gays like seeing other men/women naked should they have their own bathrooms and showers that are separated from the others or should everything be combined as unisex?

2) I would say if you lived even 50 years ago, many many many people would say that white people and black people are different races and life of that time period definitely reflected that view. Gays are suffering from the same type of fear.

Apples to Oranges still. The prior being physical traits with the other being personal preference.

3) Undoubtedly, there are gays in the military already who are able to control themselves so there would be no integration per say, just revealing.

Yes there are. I highly doubt the majority are openly gay about it either.

[bigbadberry3]

Would you support unisex bathrooms and showers in this situation as well? One of the main reason women have their own barracks and showers is due to men being aroused by seeing them naked, since gays like seeing other men/women naked should they have their own bathrooms and showers that are separated from the others or should everything be combined as unisex?

Apples to Oranges still. The prior being physical traits with the other being personal preference.

Yes there are. I highly doubt the majority are openly gay about it either.

1) Military training should instill discipline into all soldiers to act appropriately in a shower, barracks, field, wherever it may be with people who are heterosexual or homosexual. (My gym has a unisex changing room and you don't see or hear anyone going hog wild in there.)

2) You helped me understand the Apples to Oranges thing here that I had responded to earlier. We lack a common ground because I believe that homosexuals are born that way, whereas you believe homosexuality is a personal conscious choice.

[Urabus GodofTraction]

Most of the guys in my flight seem to worry more about on-the-job competence than what their coworkers want to bang off duty. If that line of thinking would hold in practice I'm not sure.

I think gays sure are whining a lot, though. I mean, we all sacrifice. I want to bang hot enlisted chicks, but can't. How much different is their situation?

[AZhitman]

Here's my take on it....

If the first thing I learn about a person is where they prefer to "holster their weapon", then THAT person has the problem, not me.

Maybe they NEED a good asswhuppin', because no one gives a good god damn about their sexual orientation.

That said, I don't see why DADT is necessary. I DO support some sort of education program, wherein a gay soldier is advised that the military has historically been "non-gay" for well over 200 years, and it's not their Twinkieass job to change it.

Change takes time - Work with me here.

Also, there's rules about soldier-on-soldier violence that relate to race - There's no reason these protections shouldn't extend to gay soldiers.

THIS BRINGS ME TO A QUESTION I'VE BEEN ASKING ABOUT FOR A WHILE...

OK, as many of you know, our son is in Basic Training at Ft. Benning. We've gotten to hear all about it, and we're proud of our boy - He's gonna make a fine soldier.

Part of the "process" that goes on during Basic is the mental "breaking down" of these kids, to be replaced with the "building up" process of turning them into soldiers - This I am cool with.

However, as you can all imagine, there's a lot of non-politically-correct talk that flies from the DI's during the process... and most of it involves some sort of discussion of the soldier's sexual orientation.

Now, I asked my son - Are there ever any racially-charged insults? He said he hadn't heard a one... He indicated there was some occasional teasing amongst the recruits in this area, but NEVER from the DI's.

So, my question is this:

How is it OK for a DI to refer to a recruit as a "f*****" or "queer" but not a "n*****" or "gook"?

NOTE: I don't have a problem with ANY of it, I think names are just words and getting worked up over them is silly... But educate me.

[WDRacing]

For me it has to do with personal prejudice, no arguing that on my end. I don't like Gay being forced in my face. We're two shakes away from dudes making out on damn commercials that my sons and I have to see while we watch football. Now we're saying it's ok for them to shower with us? GTFO...

Where's MY right to shower with people of the same sexual orientation? We're so caught up thinking about gay rights that we forget about the hetero people that are forced to change so that "others" can act however they feel is natural to them.

I tell ya, I'm tired of change.

I don't care who's gay or who does what behind closed doors. Hell, hold hands and hug if you want to. But when you start throwing gay all up in my personal space, I get fed the F up and quick. I'm no longer opposed to gay marriage. I'm not opposed to anything gay, unless it's IN MY FACE. I'm sorry if I think Gay is wrong, but I do. Then again, it's my right to think whatever I want.

If I can shower with the women, I'll withdraw my entire line of thinking. But until I can crap in the womens room and drop the soap in their shower I hold my stance.

If the homosexuals want to be upset, they can blame all the flamers that hop and skip and talk with a stupid lisp just so they can "express" how gay they are. I don't care if you're gay, but GTFO of my face with it.

If you could promise me that there won't be any flamers skipping around the supply office playing grab a** when no one is looking...then I'll reconsider. Until then...DADT is the best way for gays to serve IMHO. Why? Because they are the the ones that truly want to serve and don't actually mind not acting out in a "gay manner". Is it fair? No, but we learn early on that life isn't fair.

I know not all gay dudes are flamers, I know a gay dude that can wrench on a Harley far better then I ever could. But these are the same dudes that hate the flamers for ruining things for them. Kinda like Black people being upset with other Blacks that perpetuate ignorance just to "be black".

Once the door is open, it will be damn difficult to close. Who's to say how gay one person can act before it becomes inappropriate? If I'm the supervisor and my troop is acting out in a gay manner and it negatively affecting the work output of others, How do I counsel him? Knowing he can bring charges against me for being anti-gay with a simple phone call. There are far more angles that need to be considered aside from the simple gay rights issue.

The scope of change is enormous if you truly consider all the angles and possibilities.

Greg, the military has put serious effort towards getting rid of all racial bias and slurs are simply NOT tolerated. IMO there isn't any difference between the words jew/******/kike/f***** etc. They are all disparaging and usually only PC types are bothered by there use. I however worked on the flight line and in a combat rescue unit. You don't see a lot of panty wastes in that environment. However, you can't go to Finance and use the same language you'd use on the line. But that's just like anything in life. I don't act like I'm in a bar when I'm grocery shopping.

I hope your boy is kicking a** btw Spec Warrior

[audtatious]

1) Military training should instill discipline into all soldiers to act appropriately in a shower, barracks, field, wherever it may be with people who are heterosexual or homosexual. (My gym has a unisex changing room and you don't see or hear anyone going hog wild in there.)

I agree, other than the unisex changing/bathrooms. Maybe if I was half my age I'd feel different about it but as the traditions I was raised with are different than your generations it's simply not appropriate to me. Call me old school.

2) You helped me understand the Apples to Oranges thing here that I had responded to earlier. We lack a common ground because I believe that homosexuals are born that way, whereas you believe homosexuality is a personal conscious choice.

Honestly I think everyone is born with the predilection to being gay, some more than others. Some choose (some consciously, some not) the path to homosexuality while the majority do not. Others choose one vs the other due to what is easiest for them while even more play one field and turn to the other later in life. Your generation has a different view of homosexuality than mine when I was your age which was even further different than those who are generations older than I.

[audtatious]

I don't care if you're gay, but GTFO of my face with it.

I know not all gay dudes are flamers, I know a gay dude that can wrench on a Harley far better then I ever could. But these are the same dudes that hate the flamers for ruining things for them. Kinda like Black people being upset with other Blacks that perpetuate ignorance just to "be black".

And that's a lot of my problem with the "gay movement" as well. I know quite a few gays, even have them in my family, and none of them are flamboyant like what is pushed on us via TV and "gay pride day" when idiots walk down city streets with their d!ck swinging and "playing grabass" to make some point to the rest of us. Some people seem to think that being gay they need to talk with a lisp, walk limp wristed, swing your hips when you walk, wear assless chaps in public and what not. It's fukkin retarded and I don't appreciate it. Want to be gay? Fine with me, have at it. Want to shove your tongue down your partners throat in the town square while holding his azz? Hell no, go to a damn hotel and do it. I have the same feeling about straight couples doing the same thing in public as well.

[srellim234]

I agree with you, aud. I'm coming from the perspective of having a gay neice and a gay nephew and a hetero son who is in the Air Force. All three learned the values that you keep your family life seperate from your work life. What you do behind closed doors is your business but you don't flaunt it in the town square. Keep it modest.

As such, none of us have a problem serving in a military situation with any of them because they have the discipline to follow orders when necessary and follow that code of conduct.

As for the showering issue, that's really petty and for me a non-issue. In high school and college P.E. and extracurricular sports we had the showers in the locker rooms and nothing ever happened. I'm positive I was showering with some gays but they, too, respected others just like we did. You guys are talking like the showers will turn into a gay orgy. That's ridiculous. We're talking about trained military people. If you have so little faith in our military's ability to train you have bigger problems than gays.

The comment about racial comments by DIs got me a little, too. Racial comments by DIs used to be acceptable, as did "hands-on" corporal punishment; the military changed the rules as to what DIs can do or not do. The exact same thing would happen with regard to gay comments. No big deal. Human beings are adaptable.