Whiny Romney supporters, here's a tissue.

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themadscientist
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So, four more years of "great leader." Well done everyone.

To the Obama supporters, you are a connundrum. You would walk with the swagger of an intelligent thinker, but your actions run counter to good judgment. We have had four years of failure and yet you still said "give me more of that!"

As you rush to retort with that same tired s***, lemme just stop you and ask, how many Bush era ideas did Obama continue? Yeah. Your party claims to abhor war, but Obama is as rapacious as Bush ever was. You hated bail outs when it was Bush doing it, but when BO does it it's cool.

It's more of a snarky thing than anything else because, honestly, if you voted for him enthusiastically and not out of fear of Romney, you have a serious problem. Either you are into a cult of personality, you have no clue how reality works, you are mad and vindictive because you think you are owed something and he's the candyman or you are just plain stupid.

If, however, you voted for him because Romney scared the hell out of you, I think you are giving him more credit than he deserves, but I can understand. He was pretty ****in bad.

Now, Romney supporters, piggybacking off my closing remarks to the lefties, I'll open with the same olive branch for you. If you voted for Romney because Obama scared you, I understand. I admit, I voted for McCain last cycle mainly for that reason.

Much like what I said to the Obamniacs, though, if you voted for Romney thinking he was the promised one, um, what the hell were you thinking? He was as shallow as Obama on issues. He didn't have detail one about how he would deliver on his grandiose promises. He promised to cut taxes, increase defense spending and yet still balance the budget, all while starting a war with Iran? Seriosly, people, WTF were you on? :confused:

This guy somehow managed to not only repulse any moderates or centrist democratic types who maybe were rethinking Obama, but also piss off the militant conservatives in his own party; FAN-TAS-TICK!

He was weak in 2000, but wouldn't take no for an answer. he was weak this go around too, but this time the GOP made sure he "won." They learned nothing last time and hitched their wagon to a dead horse again. Fine, that was their decision, but it's important to make sure they remember it was THEIR DECISION.

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They wanted Romney, that was obvious from the first. They didn't like him, but they knew they were probably going to end up with him. Along the way the hard core kooks self destructed and the ones that were talking about real solutions, Paul, Huntsman, Johnson, were marginalized and pushed off the stage. Why? I have a theory. Either the GOP knows they suck and they can't afford to have any Republicans talking sense lest it cast a stark contrast to the rest of the party or two, they think it would be preferrable to lose. What? Lose on purpose? Yup, I said it.

Let's go with me for a second here. Through the four years of Obama, the only thing that has sucked worse than him is congress. Both houses, both parties, they suck bad. Squabbling over bills, playing fast and lose with procedures when possible and useful, settling scores, failing to even agree on budgets, it's all a s*** snadwich and Harry Reid and John Boehner are the chefs. One thing that serves you when the other party has the white house, though, is the ability to blame everything on the president. Yes, Obama is terrible and yes, he has done terrible things, but to let congress blame him for their failings is BS. Obama caught a lot of hell for stuff he wasn't really responsible for.

As BS as it is, though, it works. the Republicans are just as inept, childish, and greedy as the Democrats, but while vitriol against a president is 24/7, congress only feels heat every now and then. If you are a sitting congressman or senator, the life is pretty good. If you fly low and only associate your name with popular stuff you are pretty safe and can get all sorts of nifty perks for your time and some for life.

Now, here comes a presidential election. If you win then people will start to expect you as a member of the winning party to, you know, work! If, however, you lose, you can blame the president and his or her party for not working in a spirit of bipartisanship. Yeah, if your candidate loses, you still win! Cool deal. Pick a weak candidate who has a proven record of underwhelming people and throw him into one of the most polarized no holds barred battle to the death (of our country) races and watch him get torn apart. Wait, he's sucking a little too much. Let's inject the furby in there. He has some clout with the hardliners. That should get the ticket just close enough to look like we tried, like about 49%.

Yeah, Romney supporters, you just got handled. You can scream to the heavens and throw whatever insults you want. I don't care because, in the end, you let them use you, chumps. Well done.

Why write this? I'm obviously no Obama shill, I'll let Howie fly that flag. I write this because as I expected, the sour grapes are starting to make themselves apparent. You see, in much the same way that an Obama supporter needs to pump his guy up by inflating your guy into this achillean threat to make the win more impressive and cover for the fact that he sucks, you will need to cover for the fact that your sucktastic candidate was DOA by blaming the voters who either didn't vote or voted for someone else.

"Those Ron Paul supporters are childish and stayed away because they are sore losers."

"(insert any third party) are stupid idealists"

"They cost us the election!"


Let's pretend for a moment that we are adults with a modicum of intelligence, shall we? Candidates are just products in a consumer market. Is it a free market? Hell no it isn't. One need only watch the process to know it's stacked within the respective parties and if you are not a Republican or a Democrat in the general you are DOA. They won't even let you in the building to debate.

Regardless of this truth, it is a market and market forces are in play. Anyone with some understanding of marketing can tell you that you can sell anything to anybody if you market it right. Don't think so? Take Coke. It's a can of sugar water that makes you obese and eats the enamel off your teeth. In spite of that, it's an 8 billion dollar a year business, that's with a "B" folks. A campaign's job is to convince you their candidate is the answer just like Coke wants to convince you that you want a soda and that that soda should be a coke.

The difference between Coke and Romney is, other than the greater nutritional value of the 12 ounce can, Coke doesn't try to demonize the consumer for not buying the product. They improve the marketing or, if that fails, improve the product. Those of us that didn't vote for Romney didn't do it to help Obama or to spite Romney, we voted for someone else because ROMNEY SUCKS! Someone else had a better idea and earned our votes or nobody did and we recused ourselves.

I got an email from the Gary Johnson campaign thanking me for my support. I replied that that was not necessary, he earned my support. He earned it by having good ideas and a willingness to fight for my attention and then to explain his ideas and how he intended to get there. HE f*** IN EARNED MY VOTE!

I could forgive a whiny race-baiting, entitlement-demanding, excuse-copping liberal for effecting such a victim mentality, but this is the GOP. You Republicans are supposed to stand for hard work and earning what you have. How about you walk the damned talk for once and own your mistake. let me remind you.

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I didn't do that. I was one of those "Paulbots" that thought "it's the economy stupid" and that fiscal solvency was important. Yeah, We spend more than we take in and neither of the mainstream guys want to talk about it. They don't want to talk about it because they got no plan. I saw that, we saw that, we rejected Romney. you told us we were kooks. Still feeling sure of yourself? :slap:

In summation:

Romney sucks

You did that

Regarding the failure of his candidacy, the only thing you Romney whiners need to do is quote Obama in regards to our involvement in YOUR failure.

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Now go **** yourselves. :wavey:


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telcoman
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I just love watching Fox after the election trying to explain what just happened.
As I predicted a few years ago that they were lose they did.
And if they fail again to understand demographics they will not only lose more in the midterms in 2014 but will fail again in 2016.

Obama is a great president and has done a great job considering what was handed to him by eight years of Bush.

Still doing the Happy Dance since Tuesday. :)

Telcoman

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themadscientist
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telcoman wrote:Obama is a great president and has done a great job considering what was handed to him by eight years of Bush.
See, that's ok for a shifty liberal to say, the pathetic excuses. When you are supposed to be a tough, responsible conservative, however, it sounds lame. 25 views and he's the first to step up, too. Pathetic.
Thank you Howie. ;)

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telcoman
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themadscientist wrote:
telcoman wrote:Obama is a great president and has done a great job considering what was handed to him by eight years of Bush.
See, that's ok for a shifty liberal to say, the pathetic excuses. When you are supposed to be a tough, responsible conservative, however, it sounds lame. 25 views and he's the first to step up, too. Pathetic.
Thank you Howie. ;)
Go back and listen to everything that Romney said he was going to do on day one.

That scared the majority of Americans and was soundly rejected. Obamacare is here to stay.
The majority voted for Obama's position to continue tax cuts on anyone earning below $250k and raise taxes on those above that level.
THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE ASAP.
What really pissed people off was the republican voter supression. No one should have to wait 7 or 8 hours to vote
We may need a federal law to permit voting for a full two weeks prior to election day if some states continue to make voting difficult.
We need to fix our infrastructure and put millions of out of work people back to work.
We need to cut military spending and not increase it which is what Romney wanted to do.
Obama won, Romney lost and those on the right need to STFU for a year or two and give our POTUS a chance to fix our economy and everything else that needs fixing.

Telcoman

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themadscientist
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Well, despite my opening salvo at the right, they did not vote for Obama and you and your lefty buddies whined like little bishez through 8 years of Bush so you can suck it while they piss and moan about Obama all they want. Your POTUS has had four years, he failed, now you expect more time? No.

That four years of Romney would have been a train wreck, I would tend to agree with that.

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How about both sides shut the hell up?

We need to hunker down, start planning and work out a solution. I don't care who comes up with it, and I don't care how tight the belt has to get to get it done, I just want it done.

I ended up voting for Gary Johnson because he is the closest to me: fiscally conservative and socially liberal. The majority of people in the world are going this way, it's called evolving. It's not a tearing down of family values or any other little catch phrase that has been spun about Americans losing their identity, it's the truth. As a nation we value liberty and freedom above everything else; however, we tend to get afraid of the people who don't share our opinions and think that they're the "enemy." It's all bull, every single ounce of it.

I am very centrist and moderate. I WANT to compromise, I just can't get a damned single one of the people who voted for Romney on this forum to agree to some measure of cooperation. If I'm wrong for wanting to come up with the most comprehensive plan to attack the issues, then f*** tell me that. But, it only shows that "you're" unwilling to meet me half way, and "you're" an obstructionist. Don't blame me for not trying.

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Marenta wrote:I am very centrist and moderate. I WANT to compromise, I just can't get a damned single one of the people who voted for Romney on this forum to agree to some measure of cooperation.
Funny how I feel that I would not be able to get any one of the people who voted for Obama on this forum to agree to cooperate, either! :)

"Walking a mile in the other person's shoes" can be a very good principle. :yesnod

Z

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themadscientist
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True. I think once you fully understand the other person's perspective, not their opinions and prejudices, rather, the lense through which they see the world, you can at least appreciate where they are coming from. You can still disagree with the opinions they form based upon that perspective, though, and have a better chance of swaying because you approach your ideas from their starting point, not yours.

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Entirely agreed! :mike

Z

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Funny thing is obama did worse than in '08 and romney did much better than mccain did. Obama only got relelected bc he killed osama and thats the truth.

On another note i like that prop 30 passed in ca :mike

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davidoliva wrote:On another note i like that prop 30 passed in ca :mike
Actually, I don't agree ... will explain later (when I have some time to write it up) why I believe that this was a Bad Thing™. :)

Z

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szh wrote:
Marenta wrote:I am very centrist and moderate. I WANT to compromise, I just can't get a damned single one of the people who voted for Romney on this forum to agree to some measure of cooperation.
Funny how I feel that I would not be able to get any one of the people who voted for Obama on this forum to agree to cooperate, either! :)

"Walking a mile in the other person's shoes" can be a very good principle. :yesnod

Z
Obama declared the winner in Florida :chuckle:

Thanks Governor Rick Scott for creating another Florida clusterfVck
Florida's 2012 election mess: Heavy turnout, wordy ballot, fewer early voting days among causes

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/pol ... 4336.story

"The first and perhaps saddest answer is that the Florida Legislature decided to make it a priority in 2011 to reduce access to voter registration and voting," she said."

Why are only republicans fvcking up the voting process?

The result is people will wait in line for 7 or 8 hours just to vote against every republican on the ballot

The Republican-led Legislature also undid a long-standing law that permitted voters who had changed their home address to cast ordinary ballots after affirming their new address under oath.

Telcoman

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davidoliva wrote:On another note i like that prop 30 passed in ca :mike
But prop 34 didn't, sad. Murder is still legal in California. :facepalm:

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So death penalty is murder? I though murder was a death society doesn't condone. Apparently society still condones capital punishment. Society also condones death in war, and death in self defense. It also condones death of unwanted children.

Are you of the position that society should not condone the death penalty?

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stebo0728 wrote:So death penalty is murder?
Definition: The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

The first part suggests the state is covered for setting a date and killing a person, but that sort of conflicts with the second part. Premeditation is a given and malice is the only motivation for the death penalty that can withstand scrutiny.


stebo0728 wrote:I though murder was a death society doesn't condone. Apparently society still condones capital punishment. Society also condones death in war, and death in self defense. It also condones death of unwanted children.

Are you of the position that society should not condone the death penalty?
I absolutely am against the death penalty. Killing in war is a separate discussion and a certainly more complex one. There is a difference between strapping a helpless person to a table in front of an audience and killing him and fighting and killing another armed and trained person, both of you thinking you are "right." Self defense is completely passable by the definition I pulled and when you consider the power shift of applying reactionary deadly force against proactive deadly force, read "premeditated" the legality of that becomes open for debate. Abortion, again, is another discussion and certainly infinitely more complex than either of the other two.

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Fair enough. That's a solid position, I wanted to hear you clarify it. I don't completely agree with it, but that's ok. Let's look at it like this. The whole reason we even incarcerate someone, is because they have broken a law, and we want that clear and present danger removed from society, correct? I mean otherwise, we could just fine someone, maybe house arrest? No, the person has proven to be a tangible danger to society. The choice is then, do we terminate their life, or house them indefinitely? I think the only real direct gain from the death penalty, is the closure it brings the to the victim's family(s). But then there's a less direct gain. It is cheaper. Mind you, we've pre-established the clear and present danger. There in lies some room for discussion in my mind. Death penalty should only be handed down in the presence of clear and irrefutable evidence. That has become a hot button of its own, with the advent of DNA sequencing. So we do need to revisit just when we allow this penalty.

But there's some room here too. Gone are the days of inmate's actually earning their keep from the state. That needs to be brought back. If any and every inmate is forced to contribute, in some way, so that their upkeep is either greatly or completely diminished, then really the whole house of cards for reasoning FOR capital punishment completely goes away. Unless you're the victim's family of course.

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stebo0728 wrote:Fair enough. That's a solid position, I wanted to hear you clarify it. I don't completely agree with it, but that's ok. Let's look at it like this. The whole reason we even incarcerate someone, is because they have broken a law, and we want that clear and present danger removed from society, correct? I mean otherwise, we could just fine someone, maybe house arrest? No, the person has proven to be a tangible danger to society. The choice is then, do we terminate their life, or house them indefinitely? I think the only real direct gain from the death penalty, is the closure it brings the to the victim's family(s).
Actually, it doesn't work that way. There are years of appeals in which the victim's family is made to relive it over and over again.
stebo0728 wrote:But then there's a less direct gain. It is cheaper. Mind you, we've pre-established the clear and present danger.
What's cheaper, death or life in prison? The establishment of clear and present danger simply means the offender should be removed from society.
stebo0728 wrote:There in lies some room for discussion in my mind. Death penalty should only be handed down in the presence of clear and irrefutable evidence. That has become a hot button of its own, with the advent of DNA sequencing. So we do need to revisit just when we allow this penalty.
I would agree with the spirit of that. Killing innocent people is certainly a terrible mistake, but so is taking years of their lives by falsly imprisoning them. We should accept nothing but the utmost professionalism and competency of our prosecutorial efforts.
stebo0728 wrote:But there's some room here too. Gone are the days of inmate's actually earning their keep from the state. That needs to be brought back. If any and every inmate is forced to contribute, in some way, so that their upkeep is either greatly or completely diminished, then really the whole house of cards for reasoning FOR capital punishment completely goes away. Unless you're the victim's family of course.
Inmates forfeit their rights to a great degree and I would be 100% support of humane, but minimalistic lives for these people. You work or you stay in your box. You learn and acquire job skills or you stay in your box. The house of cards for capitol punishment fell a long time ago. Argument to emotion is the only one left.

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We could do away with the death penalty for sure. What we need to institute are some new forms of punishment. My idea's would be low cost, short in duration but very persuasive. Something akin to torture. Why? Because housing criminals is very very expensive for the rest of us. It's also sought out in some cases where a criminal see's jail as 3 hots and a cot.

People need a reason NOT to commit crimes. Without some form of feared punishment people will never stop being parasites. Theft for instance. If you have Joey Baganachos caught on video robbing a 7/11, you have positive evidence, so he gets publicly caned. Lets use 15 lashes for a first offense. If Joey B had uses a gun, he gets 25 lashes. If Joey B injures someone in the act of the robbery, he gets caned 25 times, on 5 separate occasions over the next 5-10 days.

For murder with the aforementioned irrefutable evidence, 30 days of pure torture, pick your poison. A combination of various sorts would probably be required to keep the body healthy. Caning, water boarding, shock, inter-venous chemicals etc.

We don't really hold people nearly accountable enough for their actions.

For the record, we could apply all of the above to Congress for failure to act.

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How very Spanish Inquisition of you. I didn't expect that.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixgc_FGam3s[/youtube]

How about we as a society act as civilized as we claim to be? :facepalm:

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themadscientist wrote: How about we as a society act as civilized as we claim to be? :facepalm:
Because we aren't as civilized as we claim to be. Murder and other criminal acts run rampant. The penal system is overtaxed and costs those of us that aren't parasites millions of dollars just to feed and house criminals so that the majority of them can recommit crimes upon their release. People are free to not break the law Mike. My idea's simply hold people accountable for their choices.

Your civilized society argument doesn't hold water.

If our current system of deterrence worked we wouldn't have a 2/3 recidivism rate for all criminals within a 3 year period.

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WDRacing wrote:
themadscientist wrote: How about we as a society act as civilized as we claim to be? :facepalm:
Because we aren't as civilized as we claim to be. Murder and other criminal acts run rampant. The penal system is overtaxed and costs those of us that aren't parasites millions of dollars just to feed and house criminals so that the majority of them can recommit crimes upon their release. People are free to not break the law Mike. My idea's simply hold people accountable for their choices.

Your civilized society argument doesn't hold water.

If our current system of deterrence worked we wouldn't have a 2/3 recidivism rate for all criminals within a 3 year period.
I never said they were free to break the law nor have I suggested a moratorium from accountability. The fact is, when we enact laws and incarcerate people for violating the same, we do so under the idea that those things are against the good order of our society. They are "uncivilized" behaviors. We are setting a precedent, a "line" as it were, the crossing of which divides the "good" people from the "bad" people. Fine.

To lock them up and take away their freedom is basic and fair as is requiring full length of sentence. To reduce their comfort level to bare minimum is on the table. To make them work in support of a society that they have transgressed upon, certainly well considered. To torture them as if we are some third world country just for spite, uh, no.

The whole reason we separated these people from the group is because we affirm they acted in an uncivilized manner. We cannot then, after we have done that then engage in inhuman assaults on their person. What does that say about us? How do we feel we can stand in judgment of people who engage in violence as an individual when we engage in it as a society. How are we any better?

You see, the problem with claiming to be just and honorable is you have to back it up with action. we are not living in caves. This is not the old west. We are not in some rapacious dictatorship, well, anyway, subject to another thread. ;) We put these people away because they are "bad." How do we look ourselves in the mirror as a society when we retaliate with bad behavior? I know this vindictive, hateful, biblical vengeance s*** makes a great t-shirt and it serves the roiling sweaty evil pride and selfishness that bubbles just under the surface of everybody, but the reason it hides is because, at some point, we chose to assume the identity of a higher society. we may think that way, but we don't act that way. In fact, when people act that way, we reject them, we imprison them. If we then go a step further and begin to stick them in the stocks and whip them and full on torture them, all we have done is become the same thing that we reject.

I don't delude myself like many do. I don't know what I am capable of. I've never seen the bottom of my dark side. I don't want to, I don't like that it's there. I try to be that civilized person we all claim we as a people are. I hold myself to account when I'm full of s*** and I hold society to account when it's full of s***. Torture in out prison system? That's s***. Kill someone, bad, we kill you with paperwork, good? No, that's s***.

If we are going to act like animals too, we erode the moral authority to punish for the same. Let the beasts out of the zoo and let's get down. My dark side could use a stroll in public. I think I could turn into quite an effective predator released from the farcical fantasy land we seem to effect and we could all be content in the fact that at least, for once, we were being honest. We are either civilized or we aren't. Society needs to walk the talk or shut the f*** up.

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I understand your stance Mike, I just disagree with it. I think we need to make the punishment for crime, at least violent crime extremely severe. Child molesters, rapists, murderers etc need to be more than locked up. That's just me bud. Those types are broken upstairs. We'd be better off without them. I'm very pro death penalty. I think they should get 6 months after the gavel drops before they are put down. I'd be willing to donate my time to drive from state to state to pull the switch, make the injection or whatever free of charge.

Have a lot less drunk driving if the penalty was a viscous a** kicking via wiffle ball bat.

Criminals aren't honorable, fvckem.

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WDRacing wrote:I understand your stance Mike, I just disagree with it. I think we need to make the punishment for crime, at least violent crime extremely severe. Child molesters, rapists, murderers etc need to be more than locked up. That's just me bud. Those types are broken upstairs. We'd be better off without them. I'm very pro death penalty. I think they should get 6 months after the gavel drops before they are put down. I'd be willing to donate my time to drive from state to state to pull the switch, make the injection or whatever free of charge.

Have a lot less drunk driving if the penalty was a viscous a** kicking via wiffle ball bat.

Criminals aren't honorable, fvckem.
The honor of the criminals is not the issue, it's the honor of those that purport to be honorable.

Your whole vector is based on revenge. Once you cross the bridge into institutional barbarism you lose the moral authority to impress upon the individual limitations you do not have on the state. That axe you swing in righteous indignation is chopping your legs out from under you. the death penalty doesn't work. All evidence shows this. It's an ineffectual holdover from the dark ages, it's biblical, an eye for an eye. It's not the pursuit of civilized man.

I invite you to look the 141 death row inmates exonerated since 1975 in the eyes and tell them their nearly unjustly spilled blood would have been worth the continued feeding of the machine of death. http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocen ... -death-row

All of them would have died under your system.
Average number of years between being sentenced to death and exoneration: 9.8 years
How about the ten most suspicuously weak cases that were prosecuted to their ultimate "just" conclusion. Tell these families their loved ones death was worth the maintenance of this ineffectual practice, that your need for revenge was more important. http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/execute ... y-innocent

Sorry kids, it's just collateral damage to ensure "justice". We are really embarassed. Hey, since we like settling scores, we will let you kill the executioner. Eye for an eye and all.

I am no different than you in a baser need for revenge, for some "street justice," but I also realise that I am part of a group that says it's above that and I am simply holding them to that which they say they are and myself to what I would like to be.

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Dude, lets use present day forensics ok. Flush your 1975 statistics.

My original argument wasn't even based around the death penalty, I was just further explaining my personal feelings. You can't tell me the death penalty doesn't work because we don't use it enough. If we put rapists to death we'd have a lot less rape. We just under utilize it. Again it's just my opinion and all your poetic waxing isn't going to change my opinion.

Public caning would deter crime. If I was caned for dui, I'd fvcking think twice about doing it again. Much more effective then a slap on the wrist and a fine.

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So then the answer is "yes, your daddy needed to die." That's what you are saying, sack up and say it. ;)

Where are your statistics? Know how I know you can't come up with any? Because I can and they don't support your assertion. http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/deterre ... rder-rates

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This isn't my first dance on this issue, bring it. I'm not trying to change your opinion. You won't change it, I know you well enough to know that. I will show why your opinion is patently in error, inconsistent, flawed, and held in your grip purely through obstinance, though. That's fine, I have unsupportable predjudices too, just not this one.

We can bring it back to torture if you like. It's under the same umbrella of useless practices that give a nod to our darker past and keep us mired in it. What makes your desire to torture someong under the trappings of process any different than someone who would do it for fun. Your motivators are arguably different, but the lust for violence is carbon copy. How are you civilized when they are not? Because "he started it?" Are we on the playground in third grade now?

I did enjoy the whiffle ball bat idea, though. Those little f*** hurt! I would use that in cases of saying dumb s*** in the public square. I'm sure I'd have a few welts by now.

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The reason why crimes are committed is because most people believe that they won't be found or prosecuted. You are much less likely of being caught of robbery here than in most countries. The punishment isn't a deterrent, it's the catching and prosecuting that is lacking when it comes to crimes.

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Absolutely agree.

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If they make a mistake and kill even one innocent person (most likely they have) the program isnt worth it. Also a lot wait decades before theyre killed in california because we have so many already on death row so they pretty much are already gettng a life sentence anyway
Last edited by davidoliva on Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The death penalty does not deter crime...gulags and tortuous conditions however, might. We need more sodomy, less basic human needs, and more psychological torment.

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Sounds like marriage.


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